5.56 vs 6.8 vs 7.62

[SANDMAN5]

Kicking around the idea of asking Santa for an AR15 this year. I know quite
a bit about the 5.56 and some about the 7.62.... but the 6.8 I know almost
nothing about. Wouldn't it be the best of both worlds? The .223 is accurate,
the .308 has more "sledge-hammer" effect. Is the .270(?) the perfect compromise?
Also gotta keep in mind ammo availability and price. Opinions?

P.S.  It will be mostly for fun, but you never know when you might need it
for home defense. Also might need the bigger/heavier bullet in the off-off-off
chance it might be used for hunting. (Collapse of civilization, food shortage, survival
of the fittest....etc)

[The Anvil]

I've shot 6.8. Nice round. But last time I checked it was expensive compared to both 5.56 and 7.62 mil-surp stuff. 6.8mm is used almost exclusively by spec-ops so it's not available in the abundant quantities that the other two rounds are.

Personally, I like the ultra-high velocity 5.56/.223 because it's lightweight, accurate, lethal, easy on moving parts and recoil is light. But the 7.62X39 is lots of fun when shooting reactionary targets. Chances are I'll pick up an AK at some point in the future.

[The Anvil]

P.S. if you want a REALLY heavy bullet then you could consider the AR10 which is 7.62X51mm (.308). That will stop pretty much any game in North America. But again, it's expensive to shoot.

Bushmaster offers a complete AR15 chambered in .223 with a carbon fiber lower for 650-ish. I checked one out at Cabelas a couple weeks ago. Seems like a decent gun for the money.

[musclehead]

P.S. if you want a REALLY heavy bullet then you could consider the AR10 which is 7.62X51mm (.308). That will stop pretty much any game in North America. But again, it's expensive to shoot.

Bushmaster offers a complete AR15 chambered in .223 with a carbon fiber lower for 650-ish. I checked one out at Cabelas a couple weeks ago. Seems like a decent gun for the money.

yep the .308 will stop about anything in north america(with proper bullet placement). except for a charging grizzly, but how often is that gonna happen?

I'd hope to be carrying at least a .300 mag if that ever came to pass.

[Disco]

If you want a gas-operated AR variant, get one.  Semi-Auto (or better) is fun, and there are lots of options worthy of consideration. 

When I was shopping for an AR-10 (.308 / 7.62mm x 51mm NATO) a precision rifle instructor asked me why I wanted to introduce unnecessary movement to a precision platform.  Considering I was interested in long range stuff, I didn't have an answer greater than his question.  I called my Fed Buddy In DC and asked him what he would purchase for his own gun safe and without taking a breath he said, "Remington 700P".  He called back in a few minutes and said he'd called their local sniper team leader and asked him the same question.  He got the same answer.  I bought the 26" barrel and a nice piece of glass to go on top for just a bit more than the AR-10 I wanted.  In hands better than mine, it's a 1000 yard tack driver and I haven't even done the stock yet.  My first time out at a 3-day course, I was lethal at 800 yards.  I was amazed.  That said, the gas-operated platforms are more capable than the vast majority of people or situations would require.  Ammo is very plentiful and not really that expensive for "practice" rounds.  Plus, you don't shot that fast with a bolt action.  There is lots of NATO surplus 180 grain ball out there.  The serious ammo is, of course, more expensive. 

[designer]

Well, the 6.8 will be a fad unless the military buys in. That's not likely to happen. The round will continue to be expensive. The latest military XM25 is 556 with a 25mm under. 308s are heavy and reserved for snipers and spec ops.  All the seals and SF I've worked with still use 556 for tactical operations.  

If your looking for reasonable rounds I would stay with 556. Next would be 762 as you can still get surplus for $80/200rds.

As for the gun, you can build a rifle cheaper then you can buy. Check out armalite.com, midwayusa.com for uppers. If you go with an AR10 style remember to price out the magazines.  A good AR15 mag will be around $15.  If your not worried about the style Springfield M1A makes a good rifle in 308.  An AR15 lower complete will run you $150 with collapsing stock.  I've seen uppers complete for less then $400.

Don't go below 16in barrel for legal and velocity reasons.  Under 16 and you need a form 4 and under 13 the bullet never achieves that velocity to do real damage. Pistols in 556 are for looks.

If you want a heavier bullet the 556 goes up to 80grains. You'll need a 1:8 twist or fast to handle the heavier bullets.  

If you mean home defense in the "walking dead" sense then good deal. If you meAn home defense as a break in, remember either gun will go through your house and probably you neighbors. Get a pistol also for home defense with the rifle. Lol

[Jess from VA]

For a first AR, I'd get a mil spec chromed bbl and chamber 5.56.  Either a 16" M4 or 20" rifle.  There's an unbelievable amount of stuff for them, and shooting them is cheaper than the others (though 7.62 X 39 is cheap too... I have an SKS for that).  Get good iron sights and an optic if you need one, and a dozen 30 round P-mags, and a 2-point sling.

You could spend months reading everything on AR15.com to get more info.

Oh, and Stag Arms makes lefties if you need one.

If the wife or young people would be shooting it, the collapsible M4 stock will suit them better than the full stock 20" bbl rifle. 

The other calibers may be more lethal beyond 200-300 meters, but for civilian self defense you won't very likely be shooting people at those ranges. 

The standard grips all are too skinny, even with my small hands, my trigger finger went clear thru the guard.  I like the Ergo grips; nice rubber texture and finger pad right where it needs to be.

[The Anvil]

Jess is right. Building or modding an AR is like bulding a race car with a Chevy 350. There's just a ton of ergo, functional and tacticool upgrades you can wade through.

He's also right about stock AR grips being not particularly comfortable. I've got a Magpul MOE+ grip on order. Actually the stock furniture could all be better. The butt of the collapsible stock is kind of sharp at the bottom and hard plastic so it likes to slip when it's not wearing a groove in your shoulder. I ordered a Magpul Carbine stock (big rubber pad) and a MOE forend which is very inexpensive, more ergonomic and can accept rail sections in the event you'd like to mount a tac light or (in my case) a bipod.

https://store.magpul.com/

Magpul ShotShow 2009 Part 1	powered by Aeva

[Oatmealman]

bah,just get something that shoots a 7.62x54r it's ridicoulously powerful,and cheap.I out shot a buddy at a 1000yards with my mosin and his I believe remington 30-06.now keep in mind he shot 20 rounds and it cost me the same amount of money to shoot 90 rounds.40 of 7.62 and 50 of 9mm.He also was not piercing steel like i was.

[solo1]

I had to bring myself up to speed and look up the 6.8..  The 6.8 Rem seems like a good compromise between the 5.56 and the much heavier .308.  It has better velocity retainage at longer distances and higher energy.  The cartridge is still small enough to carry more rounds.

It sounds like the Army might be seriously replacing the 5.56 using the same platform.

I'm ok with what I got tho. Savage model 12 in .223, target scope, and a Russian SKS with a red dot.  plenty of cheap ammo  for the SKS.  Could use 5.56 instead of .223, maybe.  Military brass is thicker with higher pressures.

[SANDMAN5]

Yep, it's all purty much like I figured. 5.56 will do. I could have worded my
questions a little better, but it all worked out. Thanks (and I had completely
forgotten about Armalite!)

[Jess from VA]

Bob, just FYI, this ArmsList site is like Craigslist for firearms (by State).

Just agree to terms, and  go to TN... there are several new and used ARs in the TN rifle listing. 

If you can find something from a private seller in TN, it is cash and carry and no paper trail of any kind,  which is always a good deal (to me).  Yes you can built from parts cheaper (and maybe better) than buying a complete rifle, but you have to know what you are doing and all must be compatible. 

http://www.armslist.com/classifieds/tennessee/rifles     (not recommendations, just FYI)

http://www.armslist.com/posts/215353/tennessee-rifles-for-sale--ar-15-smith-and-wesson-m-p-moe

http://www.armslist.com/posts/133700/knoxville-tennessee-rifles-for-sale--dpms-panther-ar-15

[designer]

6.8 military use? Not likely.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/the-usas-m4-carbine-controversy-03289/

Seen a lot of wishful thinking from a lot of forums.

And we work on motorcycles, I'm sure the black magic of pinning a mil spec upper and lower together would be too much. Lol

I like armalite, order the upper online and in your hands in 3 days. 

But, I do like a casual sale for less paperwork. Most ARs are good for 3-5000 rounds before accuracy starts opening up. Most people will fire a few hundred rounds before they run out of money or interest.

Chrome barrels are great, but only necessary if your plan on heating that barrel up.... Really up. The wear that will hurt your accuracy will be in the throat. Nothing we can do about that, except don't fire hot rounds. "reloads"

Jess, never seen those links, thanks.

[Jess from VA]

I'm sure the black magic of pinning a mil spec upper and lower together would be too much. Lol

Yeah, that's pretty simple, but I was talking about someone intending to build a rifle from a bag of individual parts.

Jess, never seen those links, thanks.


Welcome.  The ArmsList is relatively new and not very big, but I hope it takes off.  If I never buy another firearm with Federal paperwork, that will be fine with me.  I have noticed a tendency for many of the asking prices to be way to high.  Buyer must do his homework and be prepared to bargain.

[designer]

I'm sure the black magic of pinning a mil spec upper and lower together would be too much. Lol

Yeah, that's pretty simple, but I was talking about someone intending to build a rifle from a bag of individual parts.

Jess, never seen those links, thanks.


Welcome.  The ArmsList is relatively new and not very big, but I hope it takes off.  If I never buy another firearm with Federal paperwork, that will be fine with me.  I have noticed a tendency for many of the asking prices to be way to high.  Buyer must do his homework and be prepared to bargain.

Trigger groups still take me a few try's, and I would never trust anyone to get the headspace correct without the gages.  But you still can save about a hundred by snapping the two pins yourself.

[Wetrudgeon]

Our council is to stick with one of the NATO rounds; and choose which one according to what you intend to do with the rifle.  If it is primarly for fun, 5.56 is indicated, as ordnance is less expensive and lighter to carry about than 7.62.   Also considerably less recoil.  If you intend to hunt with it, then the 7.62 is preferable.

Both are quite effective as defense rounds, as thousands of Viet Cong, iraquis and Agfans will attest.

Our $.02.

We trudge on.

[SANDMAN5]

That was one of my concerns about the 5.56. Kinda like the 9mm handgun...
they will both KILL you but are they effective enough at STOPPING you.
As I mentioned, the chance of using it for hunting is extremely slim as I
haven't hunted in years.....but you never know when it might happen. Also,
it wouldn't be my FIRST line of home defense unless it's under a mob rule/martial law
kinda situation. I have a 12ga pump, 2 handguns loaded with HP, a Chihuahua with a
vicious streak in the house, and a cat that has NOT been de-clawed outside the house.
 So I feel pretty safe.     

[Jess from VA]

Bob, excluding the Chihuahua and cat, those home defense primaries are exactly what I have.

But if you get the crowd of occupiers, zombies,  or rioters coming toward your house, the AR becomes the primary. 

[designer]

Bob, excluding the Chihuahua and cat, those home defense primaries are exactly what I have.

But if you get the crowd of occupiers, zombies,  or rioters coming toward your house, the AR becomes the primary. 

I agree, but I like to soften the front line up with 5 of 6 rounds of 00 buck... what a crowd pleaser..... lol

[BigAl]

Mossberg Shotgun is really all you need for home defense and hunting.

All else is just over kill and having fun.

Hard to beat the all round utility of a shot gun.

Just a thought.

Occupiers will back down from the Blunder Buss in a heart beat.

[Jess from VA]

Bob, excluding the Chihuahua and cat, those home defense primaries are exactly what I have.

But if you get the crowd of occupiers, zombies,  or rioters coming toward your house, the AR becomes the primary. 

I agree, but I like to soften the front line up with 5 of 6 rounds of 00 buck... what a crowd pleaser..... lol

Not a bad idea, just a question of what you can carry out to the roof.

Love a couple of these in the front yard...... hard to find at the gun show.

[The Anvil]

That was one of my concerns about the 5.56. Kinda like the 9mm handgun...
they will both KILL you but are they effective enough at STOPPING you.

Absolutely. Either one is capable of stopping a man dead in his tracks.

[designer]

Bob, excluding the Chihuahua and cat, those home defense primaries are exactly what I have.

But if you get the crowd of occupiers, zombies,  or rioters coming toward your house, the AR becomes the primary.  

I agree, but I like to soften the front line up with 5 of 6 rounds of 00 buck... what a crowd pleaser..... lol

Not a bad idea, just a question of what you can carry out to the roof.

Love a couple of these in the front yard...... hard to find at the gun show.

Did you know they make a non lethal version of the claymore....  less charge and has rubber balls in it, there's a special plate that you can attach it to the side of an uparmored Hummer.  I never got to blow one... but the ideal was somewhat interesting.  crowd control from a safe haven. M5 MCCM