Final drive maintenance

[Mildew]

 I was reading a time ago where pulling these things out repeatedly does more harm than good. I've never had mine out in over 70k and my bike still runs like its new. I've heard these things are better left alone. I replace it with fresh oil every 25k. I've skimmed through and tried to find some pics of one that's been left alone for years but I didn't see any. What's y'all reckon mine looks like after 70k and 13+ years

[Gryphon Rider]

What do you specifically mean by "these things"?  The splined connection between the wheel and the final drive gearbox should be cleaned an re-lubed every time the tire is replaced (lubed twice as often with a car tire), and the drive shaft should be cleaned and re-lubed probably every second or third tire, and some do it every tire change.  Same for changing the final drive gear oil.  It wouldn't hurt to check the u-joint for looseness at the same time.  Of course, doing these things incorrectly is probably worse than not doing them at all.

[fudgie]

Wow.  Pull it and see.   Did you do the rear yourself or did the shop? Shop did my tire once. When I took it off myself the next time, 3 yrs later, it was dry as jerky.

[Chrisj CMA]

Everything is better left alone if someone doesnt want to do the work, and has the money to just replace it when it goes bad.  But regular greasing as in at every tire change is NOT going to damage anything and if put together properly should insure that the drive train outlasts the lifetime of the rider

[Disco]

I was reading a time ago where pulling these things out repeatedly does more harm than good.

Where did you read that?      Don't read it again and promise to forget it.      It has to be some of the worst Valkyrie advice I've ever heard.   I don't agree with that at all.

I've never had mine out in over 70k and my bike still runs like its new.

With all due respect, I believe it is overdue.  OK, way overdue.  It may still run like new, but final drives/flanges and driveshaft/pinion cups will function fine right up until they quit functioning altogether.  When they fail, you are not going anywhere unless you push it or trailer it. 

I replace it with fresh oil every 25k.

That's probably fine.  The Service Manual says inspect at 8K and 16K and to replace at 24K. 

Including assembly at the factory, my final drive, drive shaft, pinion cup, and final drive oil have been serviced five times in 50,711.7 miles.  Overkill?  Yes, because a bunch of us are OCD about service intervals and doing it right.  The flip side is that we've seen final drives that were not reassembled properly grenade at less than 10,000 miles. 

Here are my pinion & flange at 50,711.7 miles.  BTW, at last change, my Royal Purple final drive oil was still purple and looked like new.  Overkill?  Yes, but I don't care.  It takes less than six ounces to refill and is cheap insurance.

[olddog1946]

Personally I'd bet you aren't far from taking a long walk..makes me wish I had taken pics of my neighbors when I took his apart and found 40-45 % of the splines worn away..this was a bike with 60K and had been maintained (LOL) with dealer service (lack of)...the final drive splines and u-joint and front half of the drive shaft are lubed with moly paste or grease and only the rear of the drive shaft and internal parts of the final drive are lubed by gear oil...
You most likely have a nice rust red set of splines that are bone dry and on the downhill side of being worn off..that is assuming your tire changes have been done by a dealer with the same level of service most of us have found..

[Ken Tarver]

here is a good reason to do that "unnecessary" service.....by the way, it's not mine, it is off an Interstate I saw on the rack in the service dept at Desoto Honda, the owner had to buy a new rear end and the drive flange for the wheel .

[BamaDrifter64]

I think someone is jerking our chain....

Dave

[Chrisj CMA]

Hey, guys.  Do Honda handbooks give a service interval for lubricating the driveshaft splines?  All I see is lubricate if it is assembled or disassembled.  It is not on the scheduled maintenance list.  Rear drive splines are also not scheduled.  We know they are opened and serviced at tire time.

My '03 got a first-time new rear tire this week at 7410 miles.  I cleaned the rear drive splines and re-pasted (they looked new).  The driveshaft stayed in.

Anybody know what Honda says about the shaft?  I can't find it.

Thanks / Pluggy.

  

sounds like you didnt mess with the mounting bolts for the final srive either........not a good way to do the first rebuild back there if thats the case.  

The final drive hub needs to be loose and nothing attached (shock) so it can square itself to the wheel as you tighten the axle nut.....that is the holy grail, mess that up and some have found out just how fast the splines can get chewed up

[Pluggy]

I loosened the four nuts one and a half turns, per the manual.  After assembling and torquing the other parts in the specified sequence, I re-torqued all four nuts to 47 ft. pounds.  I then re-checked everything and put the shocks on.

Is that what you mean by messing with it?

[Ken Tarver]

A+ pluggy, you got it!

[Chrisj CMA]

I loosened the four nuts one and a half turns, per the manual.  After assembling and torquing the other parts in the specified sequence, I re-torqued all four nuts to 47 ft. pounds.  I then re-checked everything and put the shocks on.

Is that what you mean by messing with it?

Very good, you are right on it.  Many skip that part the first time

[The Anvil]

I'd say that if you never ride in any rain then you might be just fine with not servicing the pinion cup. I mean I'd still do it, but I think it's quite possible for you to neglect it and dodge a bullet.

But someone who puts mileage on a bike rarely goes a season without seeing a good pounding rain and that's when the lube winds up being washed out or emulsified. I agree with the other here. You need to do it soon.

[Ricky-D]

It is hard to imagine how water can get in the pinion cup without a corresponding improperly positioned swingarm boot.

Knowledge is power.

***

[indybobm]

I have a questiona about pinion cup service. After pulling out the driveshaft, do you clean the pinion cup out as good as you can and apply new lubricant or do you you have to disassemble it further?

[Disco]

After pulling out the driveshaft, do you clean the pinion cup out as good as you can and apply new lubricant or do you you have to disassemble it further?

You don't have to disassemble it any further to adequately clean it, but if you have an air impact and can spin the nut out of the cup, it will be much easier to handle and go much faster. 

It is hard to imagine how water can get in the pinion cup without a corresponding improperly positioned swingarm boot.

That's true, and when my u-joint grenaded at 22,5XX miles, we found the boot was not properly seated.  I may have had one of the bad u-joints with water playing no role, but I didn't know the boot was not fully seated until after I had a problem.

Knowledge is power.

+1. 

[hubcapsc]

After pulling out the driveshaft, do you clean the pinion cup out as good as you can and apply new lubricant or do you you have to disassemble it further?

You don't have to disassemble it any further to adequately clean it, but if you have an air impact and can spin the nut out of the cup, it will be much easier to handle and go much faster. 

It is hard to imagine how water can get in the pinion cup without a corresponding improperly positioned swingarm boot.

That's true, and when my u-joint grenaded at 22,5XX miles, we found the boot was not properly seated.  I may have had one of the bad u-joints with water playing no role, but I didn't know the boot was not fully seated until after I had a problem.

Knowledge is power.

+1. 

Once when I looked in there, the seal had come out of the pinion cup, and was just uselessly spinning
around on the drive shaft.





I used to only check the pinion cup "every few tires", now I check it every time. I used to
just put grease in there and call it good, now I go with making sure the holes in the bottom
of the pinion cup are cleared, put a tiny bit of grease in there for assembly, and count on
drive oil to lubricate the pinion...

Here's how it came out recently:



-Mike

[Pluggy]

Any ideas on how to keep that seal in-place?

[hubcapsc]

Any ideas on how to keep that seal in-place?

I never heard of it happening to anyone else. You're probably good if you don't let
me work on your bike 

-Mike

[PharmBoy]

I recently removed a guy's rear wheel on an '03 with 3,200 miles on it.  It still had the original tires on it and the splines were "dry as a powder house" and surface rust was found in abundance.  Luckily there was yet no wear on the splines and they cleaned up pretty well, but it was impossible to remove all the rust.  We will check it again after it has been run a while with a 50/50 mixture of waterproof grease and moly paste.  This mixture has worked well for me for a few years now.  I have come to the conclusion that the time between service is more important that the miles between service...Jim 

[hubcapsc]

Is it possible that the failure in Ken Tarver's pictures were because of a bad o-ring?  Notice where the big o-ring should be. If there's something in there, it is not much of a seal.  You can see a path of lubricant that flowed right out.  Look at the o-ring in Mike's picture.  It is full-sized and ready to seal. 

With good o-rings, good sealing surfaces, and that thick Honda paste, that whole assembly is going to be like a sealed bearing, right?  Where is path for lubricant to leave?

I did a little observing the last time I had my final drive off... the same time I took the picture. I cleaned both parts (the flange and the splines in the final drive) all the
way, and then re-gooped it all up by putting honda-moly on the flange and sticking it into the final drive. Here's where the observing took place: I never paid much
attention before, but when you slide the flange into the drive, it stops before it bottoms out... if you press a little more, the flange goes all the way in and the
Orings fully engage... it seems a lot like what Pluggy is describing.

So, after I did that, I cleaned off all the paste that was outside, past the Orings, I've never done that before. You can see in the picture how paste was flung
out from the center of the flange, I always thought that was paste being flung out of the assembly, perhaps though it is mostly paste that was overflow paste
anyhow... I'll have an anecdotal data point to check next tire... of course there's no telling how much paste "escaped" while I was thrashing around
getting the wheel back on...



-Mike

[Chrisj CMA]

That picture of some grease slung out looks normal....still grase on teh splines.  Where people go wrong is when they ONLY put grease on the flange side and dont put greas in the groove (female side) so much if not all teh grease ends up getting slid off the flange during installation and theres nothing left inside.

[hubcapsc]

That picture of some grease slung out looks normal....still grase on teh splines.  Where people go wrong is when they ONLY put grease on the flange side and dont put greas in the groove (female side) so much if not all teh grease ends up getting slid off the flange during installation and theres nothing left inside.

I only gooped up the flange. Then I stuck it in the drive, as described above, and wiggled the flange around until it
felt like toes squishing in the mud... and then I pulled out the flange and visually inspected the  drive splines, they were
nicely gooped up too, and it was lots easier than other ways I have done it... but you're right, I wouldn't want to just shmooey up
the flange, jamb it in and call it good...

-Mike

[Mildew]

Priciate all the replies. I read them all. I'll be sure and take pictures of it. Its been a busy week this week. I'll probably get to it tomarrow.  Y'al got me scared to look.

[fudgie]

Is it possible that the failure in Ken Tarver's pictures were because of a bad o-ring?  Notice where the big o-ring should be. If there's something in there, it is not much of a seal.  You can see a path of lubricant that flowed right out.  Look at the o-ring in Mike's picture.  It is full-sized and ready to seal. 

With good o-rings, good sealing surfaces, and that thick Honda paste, that whole assembly is going to be like a sealed bearing, right?  Where is path for lubricant to leave?

I had grease flung out on my rim before. I think it comes out the 'weep' hole on the black dust ring.

[Mofla]

Corn-fused ! I did a rear tire removal, final drive inspect before reading these post and without the aid of a manual,,,,, so,,,, what I have learned I did wrong is use grease instead of paste at splines at wheel and shaft. I also installed the shaft to the final drive and tightened the "four" bolts and then installed wheel, axle and nut and tightened without shocks being installed. Was that correct procedure ? I rode 200 test miles today without a problem but don't want to be chewing up gears !
Also,, I didn't take apart the final drive that a guess is where u see the u joint and O ring ?
I was very pleased that I was able to perform these duties myself and somewhat without a problem. I will not hesitate to do it all over again if it seems necessary !!!
Thanks so much !!

[Chrisj CMA]

Corn-fused ! I did a rear tire removal, final drive inspect before reading these post and without the aid of a manual,,,,, so,,,, what I have learned I did wrong is use grease instead of paste at splines at wheel and shaft. I also installed the shaft to the final drive and tightened the "four" bolts and then installed wheel, axle and nut and tightened without shocks being installed. Was that correct procedure ? I rode 200 test miles today without a problem but don't want to be chewing up gears !
Also,, I didn't take apart the final drive that a guess is where u see the u joint and O ring ?
I was very pleased that I was able to perform these duties myself and somewhat without a problem. I will not hesitate to do it all over again if it seems necessary !!!
Thanks so much !!

No, STOP.....dead wrong.  There was no way to know if the final drive was aligned when you tightened it up.  I would put her back on the lift and take the wheel back off and do it again.  

Or start looking for a final drive because that one might only last half the tire

[X Ring]

Corn-fused ! I did a rear tire removal, final drive inspect before reading these post and without the aid of a manual,,,,, so,,,, what I have learned I did wrong is use grease instead of paste at splines at wheel and shaft. I also installed the shaft to the final drive and tightened the "four" bolts and then installed wheel, axle and nut and tightened without shocks being installed. Was that correct procedure ? I rode 200 test miles today without a problem but don't want to be chewing up gears !
Also,, I didn't take apart the final drive that a guess is where u see the u joint and O ring ?
I was very pleased that I was able to perform these duties myself and somewhat without a problem. I will not hesitate to do it all over again if it seems necessary !!!
Thanks so much !!

No, STOP.....dead wrong.  There was no way to know if the final drive was aligned when you tightened it up.  I would put her back on the lift and take the wheel back off and do it again.  

Or start looking for a final drive because that one might only last half the tire

I agree!

Marty

[Ricky-D]

Corn-fused ! I did a rear tire removal, final drive inspect before reading these post and without the aid of a manual,,,,, so,,,, what I have learned I did wrong is use grease instead of paste at splines at wheel and shaft. I also installed the shaft to the final drive and tightened the "four" bolts and then installed wheel, axle and nut and tightened without shocks being installed. Was that correct procedure ? I rode 200 test miles today without a problem but don't want to be chewing up gears !
Also,, I didn't take apart the final drive that a guess is where u see the u joint and O ring ?
I was very pleased that I was able to perform these duties myself and somewhat without a problem. I will not hesitate to do it all over again if it seems necessary !!!
Thanks so much !!

No, STOP.....dead wrong.  There was no way to know if the final drive was aligned when you tightened it up.  I would put her back on the lift and take the wheel back off and do it again.  

Or start looking for a final drive because that one might only last half the tire

I agree!

Marty

Don't get all bent out of shape there!

It's not that big a deal especially if you tend to it sooner rather than later. The world is not coming to an end!

As long as the axle nut is good and tight, all that needs doing is to loosen the four flange nuts enough to let the pumpkin self adjust (nuts finger loose). You can give the pumpkin a whack with a rubber mallet to help when the nuts are loose. 

Tighten em up and you're good to go.

And I'm not certain that you even need to have the bike up on a lift to do this particular exercise.

It wouldn't hurt however.

***

[Chrisj CMA]

Sure Ricky.....just bang onit with a mallet.......Im sure thats in the book somewhere.  Mildew, that there procedure COULD work......But I think you had also said you would have used different grease in there.  Just take it off, get a good look, do  it right and have peace of mind.  Shortcuts work great when they work, but what if it doesnt?

Oops I meant Mofla.  Also you said you "didnt take the final drive apart" If you meant you didnt remove the driveshaft from the final dive and clean and regrease the pinion cup....well its worth taking it back of to get that essential part done.  That is not howerver where the U-joint is.  The U-jount is what the drive shaft sticks into when you reinserted it into the swing arm, and it didtn didnt want to go at first, then it popped it, it popped into the u-joint

[Mofla]

Thnks for taking the time to respond y'all ! Because I can use the practice I may take it down, reinspe t, reassemble. Liked your view of it Ricky, had same advice from another !!!
Like I said,,, thnks much !!!!!!