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Author Topic: Anybody ever split the case....  (Read 1690 times)
John Schmidt
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Posts: 15260


a/k/a Stuffy. '99 I/S Valk Roadsmith Trike

De Pere, WI (Green Bay)


« on: December 01, 2011, 08:53:40 PM »

In the not too distant future I'll have an engine that needs one or more pistons replaced, strictly knee-jerk analysis at this point. I've never split a Valk engine so wondering if there's any special tools needed, procedures, etc.  I've been reading the shop manual for some insight into the process for this particular engine, but there's nothing like advice from someone with first hand experience.

I had one friend suggest I have it bored out but I'm not sure I want to mess with that. For one thing I don't know if the OEM rods and crank are stout enough to handle a much larger displacement. Would be kinda fun so school is still out on that aspect of the repair. If I were to do that, I'd most likely go with a special grind on the cams and have the piston heads cut a bit for valve clearance. So far it's just the dreaming stage, but I'm open to ideas. Fortunately it's not the engine in my current ride, just someone else's mistake and it's not costing me anything for the busted one.

Keep in mind this isn't the first time I've had grease/oil under my fingernails. My first exploit was a 1927(I believe, long time ago)truck engine back when I was a young lad around 1950. That was fun, tore it down, repaired the innards and got it back together and actually running. My dad was amazed but not as much as I was. The next one of a long line was my first car...a '48 Dodge. Aaah the memories!  Evil
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GOOSE
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D.S. #: 1643

Southwest Virginia


« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2011, 11:32:04 PM »

John....Your down there in Florida with Jeff K.  He's had them apart alot since he has messed with the superchargers, and all. He could tell you what you need, and how much trouble it is to do.
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Pete
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Frasier in Southeast Tennessee


« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2011, 06:41:01 AM »

I have not done a Valkyrie, but I have rebuilt, bored, replaced pistons, rods, bearings, rings in 6 Goldwing engines.

First the rods are strong enough for any bore enlargement that the cases will allow.

Yes you will need some special tools or you can make them, especially for reassembly of he cases.

Is it a piece of cake? NO. But it is not rocket science either.

The first one I ever did all I had was the Honda manual, it went fine.

With  the manual you can do it.
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John Schmidt
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Posts: 15260


a/k/a Stuffy. '99 I/S Valk Roadsmith Trike

De Pere, WI (Green Bay)


« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2011, 06:53:48 AM »

I have not done a Valkyrie, but I have rebuilt, bored, replaced pistons, rods, bearings, rings in 6 Goldwing engines.

First the rods are strong enough for any bore enlargement that the cases will allow.

Yes you will need some special tools or you can make them, especially for reassembly of he cases.

Is it a piece of cake? NO. But it is not rocket science either.

The first one I ever did all I had was the Honda manual, it went fine.

With  the manual you can do it.


Pete, any thoughts on how big you can go on boring out that engine? I remember a company in the UK that tried developing an 1800cc kit, as I recall I think they had cooling troubles....among other things. Would be kinda fun to do something extra to it.
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gordonv
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VRCC # 31419

Richmond BC


« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2011, 07:17:36 AM »

If you are serious about increasing displacement, then find the parts 1st! No parts = no go.

I wouldn't have thought you would need special tools, but Pete says otherwise, as he's done it.

I've only done about 15 VW beetle engins on my garage bench. Was very easy, but remember you are dealing with aluminum, studs/bolts will strip out. Take the heads off before you try to lift it on the bench, and it could be light enough to lift by yourself, and reverse when you bring it back down.

One trick I learned there, but I've not heard one person say they had this trouble, is a little bathtub sealant on the case halves, to avoid oil leaking (unless they have a gasket). Another is Case Savers, over size steel inserts for the studs in the aluminum block.
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1999 Black with custom paint IS

Pete
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Frasier in Southeast Tennessee


« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2011, 07:31:14 AM »

The biggest problem will be finding pistons and rings or having them made. It has been several years since I did the last one, so I do not know who still makes big bore pistons and rings for them.
Remember they need to weigh the same as the pistons removed or a re-balance is necessary.

Look closely at Honda car pistons and rings, may be something you can use there. I used Honda 600 car pistons, re-machined on 1 big bore.

I would suggest that you need at least 1/8 inch liner thickness after boring and even then it will warm up so quick you will be surprised.  So expect to bore about 150 to 200 / 1000's. Leave enough for 1 more 20 to 40 / 1000's overbore for 1 rebuild or not, your choice.

So expect around 1650 CC from just a bore job. I have not stroked one of these engines so no info there.

In thinking about it the only major difference is the splitting and replacing of the engine cases.

When splitting the case just be sure to preposition the crankshaft and catch the pistons as they emerge from the bottom of each of the 3 bores.

When reassembling you will need to position the crank and pistons. 3 pistons need to set on special blocks to align with the case as it is joined. You can buy the special piston stands or make them. I just made some from a hard wood.

Other than that it is generally the same as any engine rebuild.

When boring the block be sure it is bored all the way to the strengthening boss in the bottom of some of the bores. If not the piston skirts may hit. The machinist may not be happy with this as it puts stress on his boring bar.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2011, 11:55:12 AM by Pete » Logged
Pete
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Frasier in Southeast Tennessee


« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2011, 07:34:40 AM »

Honda sells a special sealant for the case sealing surfaces, no gaskets. I used it and it always worked.
As Gordon said very important step.
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98valk
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Posts: 13563


South Jersey


« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2011, 09:19:28 AM »

In the not too distant future I'll have an engine that needs one or more pistons replaced, strictly knee-jerk analysis at this point. I've never split a Valk engine so wondering if there's any special tools needed, procedures, etc.  I've been reading the shop manual for some insight into the process for this particular engine, but there's nothing like advice from someone with first hand experience.


is there a problem? low compression, burning oil, etc.?
 suggest u research www.auto-rx.com and at www.bobistheoilguy.com
http://www.auto-rx.com/pov/carlos-dyson-review.html   amsoil for the life of the engine and auto-rx still cleaned it up, per oil analysis.

http://www.auto-rx.com/comments.html#impcomp    compression improved
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1998 Std/Tourer, 2007 DR200SE, 1981 CB900C  10speed
1973 Duster 340 4-speed rare A/C, 2001 F250 4x4 7.3L, 6sp

"Our Constitution was made only for a Moral and Religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the goverment of any other."
John Adams 10/11/1798
John Schmidt
Member
*****
Posts: 15260


a/k/a Stuffy. '99 I/S Valk Roadsmith Trike

De Pere, WI (Green Bay)


« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2011, 11:38:25 AM »

In the not too distant future I'll have an engine that needs one or more pistons replaced, strictly knee-jerk analysis at this point. I've never split a Valk engine so wondering if there's any special tools needed, procedures, etc.  I've been reading the shop manual for some insight into the process for this particular engine, but there's nothing like advice from someone with first hand experience.

is there a problem? low compression, burning oil, etc.?
 
Formerly supercharged, now has a blown piston...or two. Don't have the engine yet so don't know the entire damage, just what I was told. Won't get it until sometime after Jan. 1.
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98valk
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South Jersey


« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2011, 12:02:54 PM »

In the not too distant future I'll have an engine that needs one or more pistons replaced, strictly knee-jerk analysis at this point. I've never split a Valk engine so wondering if there's any special tools needed, procedures, etc.  I've been reading the shop manual for some insight into the process for this particular engine, but there's nothing like advice from someone with first hand experience.

is there a problem? low compression, burning oil, etc.?
 
Formerly supercharged, now has a blown piston...or two. Don't have the engine yet so don't know the entire damage, just what I was told. Won't get it until sometime after Jan. 1.

not even JB weld will fix that.  Grin  Good Luck.
I tend to remember a german company that was selling a big bore kit a couple of yrs ago.
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1998 Std/Tourer, 2007 DR200SE, 1981 CB900C  10speed
1973 Duster 340 4-speed rare A/C, 2001 F250 4x4 7.3L, 6sp

"Our Constitution was made only for a Moral and Religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the goverment of any other."
John Adams 10/11/1798
Pete
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Posts: 2673


Frasier in Southeast Tennessee


« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2011, 12:20:15 PM »



Pete, any thoughts on how big you can go on boring out that engine? I remember a company in the UK that tried developing an 1800cc kit, as I recall I think they had cooling troubles....among other things. Would be kinda fun to do something extra to it.

I do not remember there being enough meat in the cylinder wall for a rebore of that size. It could be they were removing the sleeves and boring the case for new large sleeves. That could also be the source of there overheating issues. I have never replaced the sleeves.

None of the overbores(2) I did ever overheated, but they did reach operating temp much faster than stock. I always tried to leave at least 1/8 inch sleeve thickness for structural strength and for a future cleanup bore for a rebuild. I always used the stock rods and press fit wrist pins or circle clip wrist pins.

Word of caution on press fit pins: I had one score a cylinder wall because it was not perfectly aligned when pressed in and moved while running. I always liked circle clips after that.

After boring the cylinders 1 side must have the bottom of the cylinders angle cut for the rings to slide in. If not you will need 3 special ring compressors when assembling the cases.  45 degrees as I remember. Boring removes to much of the angle cut for the rings to start without a compressor.

I think that is all, I hope you do it, let me know how it comes out.
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Thunderbolt
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Worthington Springs FL.


« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2011, 03:53:33 PM »

when the supercharged bikes break.  Hopefully he will chime in.  I also seem to remember that there wasn't enough left in the block to bore out succesfully.
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Jeff K
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« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2011, 06:29:57 PM »

Yes you need special tools, And some know how.
Blown bike with bad pistons? All three on the left bank are broke on the second land on the bottom of the pistons. There is no damage to the cyl walls. If it is low mileage you can go with stock bore pistons. Don't bother too much with big bore, they don't make the kits anymore and they had fits with head gaskets.

If it needs to be bored you have to find someone that can do a blind bore. One side of the block the cylinders have a bottom in them, you can't bore through. Most guys that do outboards will have the tooling to do it. I have all the specs for JE pistons in just about any overbore and compression ratio you'd like. be sure to order the Honda rings you need BEFORE ordering pistons. I got boned once when i had pistons made and Honda said they were not making that over size anymore... I think it was the .75 over bore...I had total seal make rings for me and had the piston grooves cut for the total seal rings... then the proper honda rings showed up!! tickedoff

The hardest part is putting the block back together. I never bought the Honda ring compressors. but there is a ridge that can give you problems, I just chamfer the ridge off and it helps a lot. And you have to have a second or third person to help. And total silence so you can hear the "tink" if you break a ring on insertion.  Shocked

We only live miles apart, you are welcome to all my home made tools, and I'd be happy to help put the case back together, I could even bring my highly experienced piston aligner... Joanne... she LOVES this.  Wink

And the proper block sealer is Yamabond. You can get it at... a Yamaha dealer.  I think I've even seen it at a few Honda dealers.

AND... If you have the hankering for some Carrillio Rods and thick top pistons... I'm your guy! How about a set of oversized valve heads?!
I have boxes and boxes of Valkyrie engine parts.

Anyway. I'm Just down the road in Polk City.  cooldude

Oh and if you are splitting the case do your self a favor and have the gears back cut, It is FANTASTIC. And they doe it right in Tampa. They back cut the gears and remove every other dog, shift smoth as butter without a clutch.  cooldude


I made a tool to chamfer this ridge better like the VW motors had. this was my first attempt, after I broke a ring trying. I make a nice chamfer now.



 
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98valk
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South Jersey


« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2011, 07:06:19 PM »

Jeffk,
over the yrs I've see written about larger bores but never anything about changing the stroke, either longer or shorter to increase power. Or longer or shorter rods?
can it be done?
just asking,
thanks
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1998 Std/Tourer, 2007 DR200SE, 1981 CB900C  10speed
1973 Duster 340 4-speed rare A/C, 2001 F250 4x4 7.3L, 6sp

"Our Constitution was made only for a Moral and Religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the goverment of any other."
John Adams 10/11/1798
John Schmidt
Member
*****
Posts: 15260


a/k/a Stuffy. '99 I/S Valk Roadsmith Trike

De Pere, WI (Green Bay)


« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2011, 09:05:09 PM »

Polk City....yup, probably about 50 miles from my place in Winter Park. It will probably be a couple months into the new year before the engine shows up. I'm in no hurry to get it since it's being delivered with no shipping charge.  cooldude

I'll be in touch down the road when it gets here, probably on the Florida board or direct email. Most likely I'll just go with stock replacements assuming the piston(s) are all that's required.

John

PS: Might also have a damaged huffer for you to look at. I'll know more when it all gets here.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2011, 09:06:50 PM by John Schmidt » Logged

Jeff K
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« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2011, 09:19:13 PM »

Jeffk,
over the yrs I've see written about larger bores but never anything about changing the stroke, either longer or shorter to increase power. Or longer or shorter rods?
can it be done?
just asking,
thanks

It was done. But the results weren't that good. Lots of head gasket problems. they stroked the crank and had pistons and sleeves for the motor.
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