'Si vis pacem, para bellum'

[musclehead]

file this under 'learned something new today'  in 1902 George Luger brought the world the standard for ammo ( although under powered, my opinion) 'parabellum' was taken from the ancient latin  'if you want peace prepare for war'

I'm really enjoying my new book 'the illustrated encyclopedia of guns' 

[Gryphon]

It is a great book.  I really like my copy.  It's also handy reference material for non technical questions about most common firearms and my edition had a great article on japanese sword making.

[The Anvil]

What exactly do you mean by THE standard for ammo? I haven't read it.

[Hoser]

Lot of hell raised when they made it the NATO round, and they made it the official round for the US military, special ops and selected others still use the 45 ACP.  Hoser

[Psychotic Bovine]

I sold my Ruger p85 9mm when I saw an episode of Cops where a guy had been shot with a 9mm and was walking around just fine.
I will take the .45 or .40 s&w any day over the 9mm.
A while ago there was a show and related book called "The Story of the Gun".  Very interesting stuff.

[The Anvil]

Lot of hell raised when they made it the NATO round, and they made it the official round for the US military, special ops and selected others still use the 45 ACP.  Hoser

SOME SpecOps guys still use .45acp but 9mm P is also used. It can depend a lot on the mission and which primary weapon the soldier chooses. If you take an MP5SD then it might be wise to have the ammunition for your sidearm be usable in it, right?

The premier sub-machine gun in the world is the H&K MP5 in 9mm P. H&K developed the UMP in .45 and .40S&W as a an expected replacement for the MP5 (which is also available in .40S&W BTW) and reports from the field have thusfar prevented it from gaining widespread acceptance over the older design. The other calibers do not outperform the smaller (but considerably higher velocity) bullet. There is nothing wrong with the 9mm P round. In many ways it's superior to .45acp

[SANDMAN5]

I bought a 9mm when ammo was hard to find for just about everything else.
As long as militaries use it ammo will be available. Saving my nickles and dimes
now for a 45. A loaded 9mm is far better than an empty 45.

[The Anvil]

I bought a 9mm when ammo was hard to find for just about everything else.
As long as militaries use it ammo will be available. Saving my nickles and dimes
now for a 45. A loaded 9mm is far better than an empty 45.

And you can fit a lot more 9mm P in the same sized gun than you can .45acp and let's face it; most people will benefit more from the extra rounds than they will the "increased stopping power" (which is something of a myth anyway) of the .45acp.

[Psychotic Bovine]

A lot of people have said that the increased capacity just makes people reckless, so there is that school of thought.   But, one thing that is not a myth:  a bigger hole is more devastating than a smaller hole.  A 9mm may or may not expand to .45, but it's proven that a .45 won't shrink.
My feeling is that a 9mm is a good cartridge for small handguns, or for people who cannot control a heavier recoiling weapon.
But, my feeling also is that ANY firearm is better than no firearm at all.  I used to carry a .22 auto (American Arms px22).   

[The Anvil]

A lot of people have said that the increased capacity just makes people reckless, so there is that school of thought.   But, one thing that is not a myth:  a bigger hole is more devastating than a smaller hole.  A 9mm may or may not expand to .45, but it's proven that a .45 won't shrink.
My feeling is that a 9mm is a good cartridge for small handguns, or for people who cannot control a heavier recoiling weapon.

Personally I'm a .40S&W guy.

But the right 9mm P round expands to .45 and even a little bigger in some cases and that extra couple hundred feet per second is considerable in terms of energy. But what you've seen a lot of is people using 9mm FMJ ball in handguns for personal defense. THAT is a bad idea because it tends to just overpenetrate and not transfer much energy to the target. It's also a lot more likely to kill someone else when it does.

Depending on where you're hit you can survive pretty much any defensive handgun round and even remain upright.

I agree somewhat with the "reckless argument" but I also think that depends largely on the individual and their training. The average person carrying a personal defense weapon probably doesn't need 18 rounds and if they do they probably need more training, not more bullets. So a step up in caliber trading off capacity is more sensible. A warfighter who is likely going to use lots of bullets on the other hand, may find a greater benefit in the increased ammo capacity.

Point is; choice of caliber is largely a matter of personal preference. But it's a myth that you're "undergunned" with 9mm P. In the right hands with the right bullet it's highly lethal.

[Hoser]

Lot of hell raised when they made it the NATO round, and they made it the official round for the US military, special ops and selected others still use the 45 ACP.  Hoser

SOME SpecOps guys still use .45acp but 9mm P is also used. It can depend a lot on the mission and which primary weapon the soldier chooses. If you take an MP5SD then it might be wise to have the ammunition for your sidearm be usable in it, right?

The premier sub-machine gun in the world is the H&K MP5 in 9mm P. H&K developed the UMP in .45 and .40S&W as a an expected replacement for the MP5 (which is also available in .40S&W BTW) and reports from the field have thusfar prevented it from gaining widespread acceptance over the older design. The other calibers do not outperform the smaller (but considerably higher velocity) bullet. There is nothing wrong with the 9mm P round. In many ways it's superior to .45acp

I think I said SELECTED, which means the same thing.  You gonna school a veteran who was active duty when this all was taking place?  When did you serve?  Or did you.  Hoser

[musclehead]

What exactly do you mean by THE standard for ammo? I haven't read it.

it's in the book, not my qoute "this is the world standard for pistol and submachinegun ammunition used throughout the world"

you gotta admit there's just a boat load of weapons chambered in 9mm

[PAVALKER]

Point is; choice of caliber is largely a matter of personal preference. But it's a myth that you're "undergunned" with 9mm P. In the right hands with the right bullet it's highly lethal.

Placement is key.....  a person that can place a .22 in someones eye socket at 100 yards might be  better off than a person that can put a 9mm or 45 hit a 12in square at 25 yards.  

I have a few Ruger Stainless P series in 9, 40 and 45, but have yet to shoot the 40.  My main caliber is 9mm, because that is what I consider the most common caliber, it's not too expensive to shoot regularly and has a good selection of brands/load options etc.  I have quite a few 45 rounds as well, but don't shoot that gun too often.    I'm even considering a 9mm carbine (PC9) that can use all the 9mm P series magazines I have now (even a 33 round magazine..... fun not necessarily practical for CCW tho...  )

[musclehead]

A lot of people have said that the increased capacity just makes people reckless, so there is that school of thought.   But, one thing that is not a myth:  a bigger hole is more devastating than a smaller hole.  A 9mm may or may not expand to .45, but it's proven that a .45 won't shrink.
My feeling is that a 9mm is a good cartridge for small handguns, or for people who cannot control a heavier recoiling weapon.
But, my feeling also is that ANY firearm is better than no firearm at all.  I used to carry a .22 auto (American Arms px22).   

increased capacity makes people reckless?  we talking people or trained people? that was the school of thought in the military minds that got our boys spanked with the 30-40 KRAG in the Spanish American war.
in war/battles  whoever throws the most lead wins

[Psychotic Bovine]

A lot of people have said that the increased capacity just makes people reckless, so there is that school of thought.   But, one thing that is not a myth:  a bigger hole is more devastating than a smaller hole.  A 9mm may or may not expand to .45, but it's proven that a .45 won't shrink.
My feeling is that a 9mm is a good cartridge for small handguns, or for people who cannot control a heavier recoiling weapon.
But, my feeling also is that ANY firearm is better than no firearm at all.  I used to carry a .22 auto (American Arms px22).   

increased capacity makes people reckless?  we talking people or trained people? that was the school of thought in the military minds that got our boys spanked with the 30-40 KRAG in the Spanish American war.
in war/battles  whoever throws the most lead wins

I have never been in the military, so I was speaking of the average person who carries a pistol for self defense.

[The Anvil]

Lot of hell raised when they made it the NATO round, and they made it the official round for the US military, special ops and selected others still use the 45 ACP.  Hoser

SOME SpecOps guys still use .45acp but 9mm P is also used. It can depend a lot on the mission and which primary weapon the soldier chooses. If you take an MP5SD then it might be wise to have the ammunition for your sidearm be usable in it, right?

The premier sub-machine gun in the world is the H&K MP5 in 9mm P. H&K developed the UMP in .45 and .40S&W as a an expected replacement for the MP5 (which is also available in .40S&W BTW) and reports from the field have thusfar prevented it from gaining widespread acceptance over the older design. The other calibers do not outperform the smaller (but considerably higher velocity) bullet. There is nothing wrong with the 9mm P round. In many ways it's superior to .45acp

I think I said SELECTED, which means the same thing.  You gonna school a veteran who was active duty when this all was taking place?  When did you serve?  Or did you.  Hoser

What you said was "special ops and selected others still use the 45 ACP" which sounds like you're saying that they (as units) selected .45acp over 9mm P. If that's not what you meant then okay but I'm just telling you what I know about who uses what. Not all SOCOM units use .45acp all the time. They've been known to use all types of backup calibers, even revolvers.

[The Anvil]

What exactly do you mean by THE standard for ammo? I haven't read it.

it's in the book, not my qoute "this is the world standard for pistol and submachinegun ammunition used throughout the world"

you gotta admit there's just a boat load of weapons chambered in 9mm

Okay, I wasn't sure if it was standard as in "a quality by which all others are judged" or a unit of measure standard. It's ubiquity qualifies it for the former.

I'll have to pick up the book.

[BigAl]

I believe but this is from memory.

The 9mm is hotter or at least as hot as a 38 special.

That is hot enough for police work.

9mm will do the job.

[RoadKill]

I see the 357 Sig as a very nice alternative to all cartridges mentioned....except for its price and availability,but any 40 can be converted by switching to a new barrel.  I do not own one but I sure like the ballistics and it is comparable to 40sw in recoil.

If I pull a 380, it will work fine because they are in arms reach anyhow and 22long gets the job done as well. 25 and 32 auto are about like throwing fire crackers at 'em but every one that insists on 45acp as a conceal gun just confuse me...why not carry 44mag or 500SW ? There is always .50AE for those with smaller than average ....uh,never mind   

[Hoser]

Lot of hell raised when they made it the NATO round, and they made it the official round for the US military, special ops and selected others still use the 45 ACP.  Hoser

SOME SpecOps guys still use .45acp but 9mm P is also used. It can depend a lot on the mission and which primary weapon the soldier chooses. If you take an MP5SD then it might be wise to have the ammunition for your sidearm be usable in it, right?

The premier sub-machine gun in the world is the H&K MP5 in 9mm P. H&K developed the UMP in .45 and .40S&W as a an expected replacement for the MP5 (which is also available in .40S&W BTW) and reports from the field have thusfar prevented it from gaining widespread acceptance over the older design. The other calibers do not outperform the smaller (but considerably higher velocity) bullet. There is nothing wrong with the 9mm P round. In many ways it's superior to .45acp

I think I said SELECTED, which means the same thing.  You gonna school a veteran who was active duty when this all was taking place?  When did you serve?  Or did you.  Hoser

What you said was "special ops and selected others still use the 45 ACP" which sounds like you're saying that they (as units) selected .45acp over 9mm P. If that's not what you meant then okay but I'm just telling you what I know about who uses what. Not all SOCOM units use .45acp all the time. They've been known to use all types of backup calibers, even revolvers.

You and I both should know that special units can use anything they need to complete a mission,  A Marine friend of mine who engaged in clearing kong tunnels told me the main reason they were going to Berreta as a general use issue to combat troops was so the draftees would quit shooting themselves in the foot, due to the single action on the 1911.  He having a combat MOS, I believe him.  I understand some did not appreciate the Italian production of the Model 92, in fact Berreta built a stateside factory to get the new contract.  That being said, not having been a combat soldier, I own more more 9mm handguns that 45s, but I got a couple, both double action by the way. BTW, are you a veteran or not?  Most are not nowadays.  Hoser

[The Anvil]

Lot of hell raised when they made it the NATO round, and they made it the official round for the US military, special ops and selected others still use the 45 ACP.  Hoser

SOME SpecOps guys still use .45acp but 9mm P is also used. It can depend a lot on the mission and which primary weapon the soldier chooses. If you take an MP5SD then it might be wise to have the ammunition for your sidearm be usable in it, right?

The premier sub-machine gun in the world is the H&K MP5 in 9mm P. H&K developed the UMP in .45 and .40S&W as a an expected replacement for the MP5 (which is also available in .40S&W BTW) and reports from the field have thusfar prevented it from gaining widespread acceptance over the older design. The other calibers do not outperform the smaller (but considerably higher velocity) bullet. There is nothing wrong with the 9mm P round. In many ways it's superior to .45acp

I think I said SELECTED, which means the same thing.  You gonna school a veteran who was active duty when this all was taking place?  When did you serve?  Or did you.  Hoser

What you said was "special ops and selected others still use the 45 ACP" which sounds like you're saying that they (as units) selected .45acp over 9mm P. If that's not what you meant then okay but I'm just telling you what I know about who uses what. Not all SOCOM units use .45acp all the time. They've been known to use all types of backup calibers, even revolvers.

You and I both should know that special units can use anything they need to complete a mission,  A Marine friend of mine who engaged in clearing kong tunnels told me the main reason they were going to Berreta as a general use issue to combat troops was so the draftees would quit shooting themselves in the foot, due to the single action on the 1911.  He having a combat MOS, I believe him.  I understand some did not appreciate the Italian production of the Model 92, in fact Berreta built a stateside factory to get the new contract.  That being said, not having been a combat soldier, I own more more 9mm handguns that 45s, but I got a couple, both double action by the way. BTW, are you a veteran or not?  Most are not nowadays.  Hoser

I'm not a vet, no. I have a physical problem that made me undesirable as a pilot. I was stubborn and didn't really want to do anything else.

But I work and have worked closely with military elements as a contractor.

[3fan4life]

While personal preference tends to be the deciding factor for most people, if you really want to know which one is the most powerful then Ballistics DON'T lie.




Round           Weight   Muzzle Velocity(fps)   Energy@Muzzle(ft/lbs)  Energy@ 50 yds(ft/lbs)

9mm Lugar    115 gr      1155                             341                                 280
45 Auto         185 gr        970                             386                                 340

357 Mag        158 gr      1250                             548                                 464
357 Sig         124 gr      1350                             502                                 405

44 Mag         180 gr       1550                             960                                 717
50 AE           300 gr       1475                            1449                               1046


So the 45 carries a little more kick than the 9mm.

My preference has always been 357 mag and is more powerful than the 357 Sig 

And it would seem that Dirty Harry's 44 mag is no longer the most powerful handgun made.

Here's a link to the ballistic info:

http://www.hornady.com/ballistics-resource/ballistic-chart 

[The Anvil]

So the 45 carries a little more kick than the 9mm.

Considering the difference in bullet weight between the .45 and 9mm (70 grains, that more than the average .223/5.56 round) the difference in energy is not that great. So yes, there's a difference, but it's not as significant as some people think.

The .357 Magnum IS a beast. But look at those bullet weights and velocities and the difference in energy between the magnum and Sig. Again, not gig a gulf as you might think.

And none of that means much if the bullet can't transfer or "dissipate" it's energy into the target.

[Dubsvalk]

An O.R. doctor friend tells me that people shot with 9MM rounds usually recover.  However, those shot with the larger calibers are not so fortunate.  I like my 9MM even though it is a smaller round.  Accuracy has a lot to do with stopping ability too.
Dubs

[Master Blaster]

My military carry sidearm was a 1911A1, and I still have great respect for it.  I have an all original 1942 Ithica built, plus a compact Llama with a doublestack mag that holds 10 rounds.  However I also own and use several 22/22mag, 9mm, 357, 44mag, 45/70, 45 long Colt/410 shotgun, and a 25, both in semi auto and revolver.  I personally like large bore and that is why the 45/70 BFR, and the AK Draco.  All fun to shoot, but I also like the Mac 11 in 9mm for cheap noise making.  In Vietnam lots of Cobra pilots favored the AK47 as you could remove the rear stock and it would ride in your lap across the narrow cockpit, in effect giving you a high cap, long barreled pistol.  I also believe that any cal is better than not being armed.  For a striking compairison look at an American Arms mini 22 beside the BFR in 45/70, both SST revolvers.  One you can carry in your pocket like change, and the other you need an across the chest holster to carry.  Both effective and fun to shoot, and in a pinch would be better than expecting to be protected by Law enforcement.  As far as the military going to lesser cals I believe the reason was the same at going to automatic transmissions in vehicles.  This was mostly to accomidate the influx of women in the military.  I was there from the 30-06 through the NATO 308 to the 223 as the standard shoulder weapon, and the 45 to 38 to 9MM side arm.  Now that our government is openly courting Gays for military service, it anybodys guess what will be done to accomidate them.

[The Anvil]

I believe the reason was the same at going to automatic transmissions in vehicles.  This was mostly to accomidate the influx of women in the military.  I was there from the 30-06 through the NATO 308 to the 223 as the standard shoulder weapon, and the 45 to 38 to 9MM side arm.  Now that our government is openly courting Gays for military service, it anybodys guess what will be done to accomidate them.

You were doing so well too. Then you uttered this laughable "theory".

[3fan4life]

Now that our government is openly courting Gays for military service, it anybodys guess what will be done to accomidate them.

Maybe this:



or this:



Sorry I just coouldn't resist. 

[musclehead]

While personal preference tends to be the deciding factor for most people, if you really want to know which one is the most powerful then Ballistics DON'T lie.




Round           Weight   Muzzle Velocity(fps)   Energy@Muzzle(ft/lbs)  Energy@ 50 yds(ft/lbs)

9mm Lugar    115 gr      1155                             341                                 280
45 Auto         185 gr        970                             386                                 340

357 Mag        158 gr      1250                             548                                 464
357 Sig         124 gr      1350                             502                                 405

44 Mag         180 gr       1550                             960                                 717
50 AE           300 gr       1475                            1449                               1046


So the 45 carries a little more kick than the 9mm.

My preference has always been 357 mag and is more powerful than the 357 Sig 

And it would seem that Dirty Harry's 44 mag is no longer the most powerful handgun made.

Here's a link to the ballistic info:

http://www.hornady.com/ballistics-resource/ballistic-chart 

now that I own both I'd say the .45 has more kick then the 9mm. the felt recoil between my 92 FS and my XD 45 isn't much. might be an increase of 10 15%.

[Wetrudgeon]

We think that because of the almost universal availability of the 9X19 round, every gun owner should own at least one firearm chambered in it.

We like the round, but somewhat prefer the venerable .45ACP (which is almost as common at least in the USA).  A wise man has observed that while there are some documented instances of the 9mm round not properly expanding on impact, there are no documented instances of the .45ACP shrinking.

We trudge on. 

[The Anvil]

We think that because of the almost universal availability of the 9X19 round, every gun owner should own at least one firearm chambered in it.

That's an excellent point. I've been thinking about picking up a nice used USP Compact in 9mm for my mother but maybe I'll buy it for myself instead.

[Psychotic Bovine]

I will admit, I wouldn't mind having another 9mm.  But only one 9mm will do:  a Stoeger Luger.