Not of the Bible... Who cares..?

[Paxton]

HAPPY HOLIDAYS IF YOU WANT.

Hello folks;
My old brain is out searchin' for the meaning of life; an old past time...

Often times, in our culture we hear 'bout certain characters or learn phrases that, although sound "biblical,"
they are not of the Bible.

Can you think of any? Do you care as much as I do not?  ???

Here is an example: "God helps those who help themselves."

If so, are we then to conclude that if you can't help yourself you are on your own?
That if you have a job God will help you get a raise, but if you can't find a job because you don't own a car and
can't help yourself, God won't intervene on your behalf?

Per God's reputation, I'd think that SHE/HE/IT would, indeed, help those who help themselves.

Notwithstanding, I have been raised to believe that God would ALWAYS be on the side of those who can't help themselves.
That God would take the side of the indigent; EVERYTIME.

There are millions of people who can't help themselves, but cry for God's help day in and day out.
Hasn't anybody told them that God is busy helping those who help themselves?

Other examples not of the Bible: Saint Valentine, the Easter Bunny, Saint Nicholas, the Pope, Halloween,
Ground Hog Day, etc.

With the possible exception of the Pope, all these fantasies are not a part of the Christmas fable.

The three wise guys are a part of the original story. But they were middle-easteners... certainly not Christians...
hard to trust them.

Indeed they showed up 12 days late for the Baby Shower... like on 6 January 32 B.C. Had they been Americans,
they would had showed up on 6 December and the Christmas tree would have been up already for the birth,
along w/-Egg Nog for everyone!

Instead of Ore, Incense and Myrrh, Joseph and Mary would have received a Valkyrie Trike as a Christmas gift.
I mean, how wise do you have to be to figure this one out?  Three wise guys could not put their heads together?

I suppose that people from those other "weird cultures and religions" might look at ours and marble  about our creativity. 
They would wonder about our ability to create fantasies, then turn around and enslave ourselves to them.

Generally speaking, in our culture, choose not to participate in Christmas and you are definitely a pariah.
You are a "Mr. or a Ms. Scrooge;" err... just another fantasy that exacts psychological penalties on most. Yet, not of the Bible. 
It accounts for hundreds of suicides during the "Holidays." Mostly, people who can't help themselves.
Don't get me wrong... or do.

I enjoy the unholidays as much as everyone else. I just can't internalize the thought of God helping me with the Valkyrie,
stuff that requires no help, while neglecting the people of Darfur, who struggle minute-by-minute to enjoy the illusion of
a "half ass good life" but can't help themselves.

Under such circumstances, could you visualize World Peace?

"Every person on her/his volition must choose how much truth she/he can stand."

[Moonshot_1]

Kinda taking the "God helps them who help themselves" phrase and spinning it into oblivion aren't we?

This reminds me of a joke.

A guy prays to God for a million dollar lottery win.

Nothing.

The guy prays even harder to win the lottery.

Nothing.


Again and again and again till the guy get really mad and asks God why he won't let him win the lottery?

God replies "You gotta buy a damn ticket"

The point isn't that if you can't help yourself you are on your own but if you WON'T help yourself you are on your own.

You got to at least buy a ticket.

[Willow]

6 January, 32 BC?  Are you sure?

I had them closer to 4 BC but I'd no idea of the day of the year.    

Interesting perspective, though.  I guess we all make ourselves slaves to what we choose to believe, perhaps even, or especially those of us who claim not to believe.

By the way, I agree with you concerning Saint Nick, the Spring Rabbit, and most specifically Saint V.  I don't believe in any of them, but I'm going to have to check on that groundhog bit.

Just as an aside, not only were the magi (three or thirty, who knows?) not Christian and middle easterners, but Mary, Joseph, and the Christ child himself were likewise middle easterners and were not Christians.

I'm told you can find that "God helps them that help themselves" quote in second Hezekiah.    

Merry Christmas.  (It's a post biblical traditional greeting.)      

[The Anvil]

A guy prays to God for a million dollar lottery win.

Nothing.

The guy prays even harder to win the lottery.

Nothing.


Again and again and again till the guy get really mad and asks God why he won't let him win the lottery?

God replies "You gotta buy a damn ticket"

The point isn't that if you can't help yourself you are on your own but if you WON'T help yourself you are on your own.

You got to at least buy a ticket.

I like that.

Though really, there's no rhyme or reason to who receives "help" or whether it's any help at all. Take Donald Trump; he's wealthy and famous, but I wouldn't want to swap lives with him though some might think he's been smiled upon.   

[Willow]

Take Donald Trump; he's wealthy and famous, but I wouldn't want to swap lives with him ...  

That's almost brilliantly insightful.  Wealth (and blessings) come in many forms and not nearly as often as some may think in the form or material possessions.

[BF]

Oh boy........a religion thread.   

[The Anvil]

Oh boy........a religion thread.   

You'd rather a politics thread?

[Paxton]

Quicksilver;
I still can't get over my mother's passing 18 months ago. Although she would prefer to be with her children,
I too HOPE she is at the "better place" lots of people reference.
As a side note, I'm yet to meet anybody who can't wait to go to said "better place."

True for me, even if there isn't a "Thereafter." When I get too old and feeble... suffering from pain while others watch,
cremation would be a "better place" than the spectacle of dyeing.

I whole hardly believe that Jesus brought hope to the world and that he was crucified. I subscribe to Jesus' precepts and outlook on humanity.

However, I do have difficulties internalizing the idea of a divine conception, resurrection, hell, heaven, etc.

Imagine for a moment that all Jesus-related unnatural events and places are inspired just by our need for eternal life.
That they are just a figment of the imagination.

Even so, I would think that Jesus was a gift to humanity and that his precepts and words lay out a great road map for
achieving a joyful life. In that sense, I am a Jesus groupie!

So, I ask myself the questions; would I go to Hell just because I have no capacity to internalize the story of the resurrection?

During his "second coming," would I'd be "left behind" by God just because I could not reason the event of the rapture?

Oops... and what about my failure to obey all 10 commandments; like admiring the neighbor's wife physique...
and falling short in my attempts to honor my parents...

"God is a concept by which we measure our pain."

[/i]

[BF]

Oh boy........a religion thread.   

You'd rather a politics thread?

Yep. 

[3fan4life]

Paxton,

I truly wish that I had the answers that you seek.

I don't know what it is like to not believe in God, I am however, still learning what it means to have "Faith" in God.

I do know that God takes care of us, if we trust him to do so.

The fact that you are looking for answers to your questions is a good thing.

I believe that God doesn't mind when we seek a better understanding of him and his ways, as long as we are sincere in our search.

I would suggest that you ask God to help you to gain the understanding that you seek, you might be surprised at the answers.

   

   

[The Anvil]

Paxton, you and I have practically the same approach to Christianity.

My misgivings and concerns with the bible and Christianity are distilled in a verse from Deuteronomy (which is old testament I think).

You shall not bow down yourself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,


Basically, I read that to mean; Love me, for I am extremely insecure and a holder of grudges and will punish the innocent as recompense for crimes you have committed in my eyes. Love me or else.

Well I don't really know what more I can do. The mind reasons and the spirit yearns but the heart wants what the heart wants. I can't bring myself to invest all that I have in something I'm not sure I believe in. That would be a lie and a far greater sin than my honesty about my "flaws". I must trust that if I live a good life that I will be taken into heaven when that time comes. However lord, if you would rain blows on the heads of those little ones who come blindly seeking the shelter of your robes (with apologies to Stephen Crane) then I think I'd prefer to spend eternity in the company of others less petty if far more ugly to behold.

All I can muster for god (beyond a hope) is a good life of honor and charity. If that (and the look of surprise and awe on my face) is not enough then that will be unfortunate.

And if that day of rapture comes on earth and Jesus returns it is my understanding that the final battle will take be fought between the armies of Satan and the Lion in a place called Armageddon. A place where I would gladly give what I have left.

But much of the bible was chronicled by man. Maybe that line was a fabrication by a mischievous scribe?

[ComradBlack]

Here is an example: "God helps those who help themselves."

Big difference between helping those that actually need help ... vs ... helping selfish lazy freeloading bums that refuse to help themselves.

Being Christian is not synonymous with being gullable ... nor being too stupid to understand the difference.

Sometimes the best way to help someone is with a kick in the @$$

[Relax]

 
I prefer a wide aproach to faith. I don't care if you name him God, Allah, Budda, Jesus,
Jehova or whatever..... It is only a name you randomly were taught to use..... I believe they are all just another word for Love.
If a small kid who never heard about God is lost because of that, well, then i say goodbye to God.
It can't be so, i don't  accept it.
I believe the meaning in all religions is to believe in love and work for the good things. Doing that is what it takes.

Let your love reflect in everything you do, say and decide.

Just my humble take on the biggest mysterye of them all...... Life.
 

[Quicksilver]

Apparently the phrase is not in the Bible at all. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_helps_those_who_help_themselves. It has been used by motivational speakers from ancient greece to modern day, Benjamin Franklin being one notable person using it.
I enjoyed reading the sayings attributed to Solomon, one in particular,that " It's better to live on the roof of your house than in it with a wife that nags." gave me a chuckle.

[Chrisj CMA]

Because the can of worms is open I cannot help but to add two points of focus.

1.  Following God in the old testament was NOT Christianity.  Hense the name in Christianity....Christ.  Why is that signigicant, because God had a covenant with his people and they continually proved they could not keep that covenant.  They had to make blood sacrifices......yes it seems brutal and barbaric and all that

Jesus Died and rose again as the final sacrifice, he changed it all.  He relieved us from the curse of the law.  The curse was IT WAS IMPOSSIBLE TO KEEP IT.

So how Christians relate to God in the new testament is from a stndpoint of being forgiven whereas in the old testament you had to be "perfect or perfected"

2.  Why does it seem hard to see a God willing to help you with your Valkyrie (ok valk related) but allow people to starve around the world.

I believe those that would struggle with that comparrison (I have as well) are thinking individually and I dont think thats the mind of God.  Those of us that think globally maybe are more apt to think this.  Suppose God views humanity as a whole.  He created so much food on the earth.  If there werent so many humans fatter than a whale from over eating and so many starving.  If globally we were sharing resources more or trying to, maybe God would be more involved in that effort.  

Maybe God is willing to help you with your valkyrie to show you he is real so you will in turn be involved with his work somewhere else.  Thats just how I see it lately

Merry Christmas or what ever you call it.......I say Merry Christmas, if you say Happy Holidays its ok with me as long as you dont stand with those that want to ban anything Christian from the public in America.  

[Robert]

God gave the orders to occupy be fruitful and multiply. He also said you will toil in your work thanks to Adam. But we are the ones that are supposed to be so close to God that we hear Him and work with Him to accomplish the purposes for our lives and the things He wants to do through us. But that also includes free will and we have a choice. Do we have trust in God to give, forgive, and do the work or do we hold on to all the things of the world? Even when its difficult and there seems to be no reward for us? I wanted to find things out and knew that He does answer people so I decided to keep asking till I got some answers. Understanding life doesn't come by what we know but by what He reveals to us. If you have questions in your heart pursue Him till you get the answer they wouldn't be there if He didn't want you to seek Him. We are created in Gods image we do have the power to create, but what do we create with the time given us?

Mat 7:7  "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
Mat 7:8  "For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.

As close as I can come to God helps those who help themselves
Jas 2:18  But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works

[The Anvil]

Terminator 2 scene 98A     John sees two kids playing with machine-gun water pistols nearby, viciously squirting each other.
                                
                                FIRST KID
                You're dead!

                                SECOND KID
                Am not!

                                FIRST KID
                Are so!

        John and Terminator watch them rolling on the ground in a fight to the
        death.  Sarah rounds the front of the truck, and sees the kids.  John
        sighs, solemn.  He looks up at the cyborg.

                                JOHN
                We're not gonna make it, are we?  People, I
                mean.

                                TERMINATOR
                It is in your nature to destroy yourselves.

        John nods, depressed.

[Willow]

Apparently the phrase is not in the Bible at all.

No, it's not, QS.  Neither is there a book of Hezekiah.  I was being a smart ass.    

Mr. Paxton is quite correct on that point.

[Titan]

The Skeptics Annotated Bible.


http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/

Quote from the first paragraph of the Preface...
"For nearly two billion people, the Bible is a holy book containing the revealed word of God. It is the source of their religious beliefs. Yet few of those who believe in the Bible have actually read it."

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/preface.html

[SANDMAN5]

One thing to remember is the difference between the Old and New Testaments. You can keep
the "Ten Commandments" all your life (actually you can't, that's why there's the New Testament)
and your Spirit/Soul will end up in Hell when your Body ceases to function. A child that never
knows/understands Jesus can't be guilty of the ONLY unforgivable sin...rejecting Jesus. I've heard
it called "the age of accountability", but not sure if that's in the Bible. Might just be a "religious"
idea. Don't confuse "Christians" with "religious people". You can be one without being the other.
I had an athiest ask me one time why I wasn't killing sheep as a sacrifice to God!! He obviously
hadn't read or didn't understand much of the Bible!!  Old Testament Law was to remind people of
their sins and shortcomings. Rembering their sins to following generations is completely Old Test.
The New Test tells us that each of us is responsible for our own actions, not our great-grandpa.
The ONLY way to be forgiven of our sins and become right with God is accepting Jesus, according
to the Bible. When you are born you are a sinner, period. You can thank Adam for that....original
sin, it's called. Sorry if I rambled, and I'm sure there's much more I'd like to say, but I just woke up
and haven't had my first cup of caffeine.  BTW, another common misquote is "Money is the root of
all evil." That's NOT what the Bible says. It says the LOVE OF MONEY is the root of all evil. Just FYI. 

[ricoman]

Merry Christmas to you, Paxton.
Do not understand the point you are attempting to make (rather poorly, I might add).
Love for one another is what it all should be about.
That's the bottom line. (what ever drives you)
Merry Christmas to you and yours!

[BigAl]

How many of each animal, did Moses load onto the Ark??????????????????????

Any body.

Well you might be anybody.





Paxton you are searching and I have an answer for you if you PM me.

Not putting it on here.

AL

[The Anvil]

Paxton you are searching and I have an answer for you if you PM me.

I'm not sure that anti-depressants are the answer.

[BigAl]

Don't knock them till you try them Anvil.

But that is not what I was referring too.

Thanks

[The Anvil]

Don't knock them till you try them Anvil.

I like my drugs like I like my women; tainted and illicit.

[Quicksilver]

Thanks for the quick tune up Paxton, it being Christmas and all it's the right time of year to consider just where we stand when it comes to our place in the world. I personally get a great deal of comfort from feeling that someone or thing is in charge of it all and that it is benevolent. Structured religion was created by men and women and continues to be changed by them to accomodate changes in society. Thats not necessarily bad, it just is. Jesus did a great job sorting out our relationship with God and spreading the news. Thats what I thank him for and why I celebrate his Birth. I know living day to day is a lot easier for me with the feeling that if I follow the suggestions of Jesus in living with my fellow men and women, i will share the peace that is there for the taking. If I imagined a hand on my shoulder last Sunday when Dad passed away, I don't mind because it really helped me hold it together for the rest of my family, and is helping me smile now thinking about him.
Thank You again Paxton.  

[Paxton]

Hello folks...
I am a Christian. I am a Jesus fan. I know that he was crucified. I truly believe in the wisdom of his words and his love of humanity.
Whereas, I do not believe in organized religion, I live my life by Jesus' principles.

Somebody might admonish that I am not a real christian because I am a doubting Thomas... and that's OK by me.

As Mom thought me, if one loves Jesus, then EVERYDAY is Christmas Day. So, indeed I love on Flag Day just as much
as I love on Christmas Day.

I am probably not your ideal Christian, but my relationship with Jesus works for me. 
I've been blessed beyond my wildest dreams and I actively share my blessings everyday as well as in Christmas.

By my own experience, and inspired by Jesus, It is DEFINITELY BETTER TO GIVE than to receive.

As Jesus instructed, I love my neighbors (in all neighborhoods), like I love myself.

I hate nobody; never have and never will. Like Jealousy or Envy, Hate is a convulsive-painful emotion.
Hate eats the soul of the hater.

In closing, I thank everyone who has contributed to this thread in more ways that you know. Lots of food for thought. THANK YOU.

RIDE SAFE

“Every time I start thinking the world is all bad
I begin to see people out there havin' a good time on a motorcycle,
and it makes me take another look.”
Steve McQueen

[RoadKill]

Who is to say that you are , or are not christian because of your desire to understand and analyze what your own faith is to you ? I think ones faith can evolve and change. Many persons change religion or denomination several times in their lives. I will not look down upon any of them for that, because my faith leads me to believe that is not the right thing to do.   Isn't that what almost all religion has in common ?   WHAT IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO ?   Does not matter if it is WWJD or WW'allah'D..it is the search for what is right................................  The search makes you better 

[PhredValk]

Al; Moses didn't build an ark.

Not sure what I believe, actually. I live my life according to Jesus' rules, because they are the rules of the society that I grew up in. Mohammed taught the same stuff, as did the Buddha.

Be good. Be kind. Help where you can. Don't hate. Don't cheat. Don't kill. Do drive maintenance every ten thousand miles.

A great man once said (and I paraphrase, because I can't quote exactly); 'We know that God has a master plan for us. When you pray for God's help, you're asking Him to change his plan. What, for YOU??'
George Carlin.

Merry Christmas. Enjoy whatever other Holiday that you may celebrate.
Fred.

[Jabba]

No, it's not, QS.  Neither is there a book of Hezekiah.  I was being a smart ass.    

Willow... you forgot the official sarcasm font....

I fixed it for you though.

)

Jabba

[Willow]

Willow... you forgot the official sarcasm font....

I fixed it for you though.

lol!  John, you put the sarcasm on the wrong quote.    

[Chrisj CMA]

Who is to say that you are , or are not christian because of your desire to understand and analyze what your own faith is to you ? I think ones faith can evolve and change. Many persons change religion or denomination several times in their lives. I will not look down upon any of them for that, because my faith leads me to believe that is not the right thing to do.   Isn't that what almost all religion has in common ?   WHAT IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO ?   Does not matter if it is WWJD or WW'allah'D..it is the search for what is right................................  The search makes you better 

Theres only one opinion that matters as far as if one is a Christian or not.  That opinion is Gods, and if you are right with God, he lets you know because he is now living in you and he doesnt move in quietly.  All things become new and you cant NOT know.  If you cant relate to what I just said, you may not be one

[bigguy]

Something interesting happened last night. It may be off topic. Or maybe not.

The wife and I were busy yesterday so didn't put much thought into supper. There's a bunch of leftovers in the fridge, but neither of us much cared to hit those again, so we decided I'd make a quick run to Burger King. I ordered a Whopper meal for her and two double cheeseburgers and a large fry for me.
I got my order and did a quick check of the bag. It looked OK. But once I got home, I discovered that they'd left out one order of fries. I was angry. Checking the ticket, I saw that I'd paid for two. I jumped in the truck and headed back. I showed the ticked to the clerk and told them that I didn't get my fries. Possibly, I should have been more clear. They thought that I didn't get any fries. As they loaded two orders into a sack I told them that I had gotten one of the orders and only needed one more. The lady behind the counter repeated to me that I only needed one order, but still put two in the sack.
I took the sack figuring the extra time and gas was at least worth that. The thing was, I really couldn't eat that many fries.
As I backed the truck out of it's parking space, I caught movement out of the corner of my eye. A man was shuffling along beside the building. His clothes were clean and not tattered, but I was strangely convinced he was homeless. I drove slowly enough to still be in the parking area as he reached the door. He didn't go in, but walked hesitantly on by.
I looped around the building and pulled up next to him as he stepped off the sidewalk. I told him that I'd asked for one order of fries but gotten two, and as I couldn't eat both and wondered it he'd like the other. He was much thinner than I'd first realized and thanked me for the fires.

I don't KNOW anything, and I'm not trying to pretend that I have evangelical insight to this event. But I believe that God was helping a man who couldn't help himself, and gave me to opportunity to witness it, and even be a small part of it.

Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, and my God bless each and every one of you.

[Jabba]

I'm told you can find that "God helps them that help themselves" quote in second Hezekiah.    

Indeed I did.

I stand corrected, and so does your sarcasm.

Jabba

[3fan4life]

Something interesting happened last night. It may be off topic. Or maybe not.

The lady behind the counter repeated to me that I only needed one order, but still put two in the sack.
I took the sack figuring the extra time and gas was at least worth that. The thing was, I really couldn't eat that many fries.

As I backed the truck out of it's parking space, I caught movement out of the corner of my eye. A man was shuffling along beside the building. His clothes were clean and not tattered, but I was strangely convinced he was homeless. I drove slowly enough to still be in the parking area as he reached the door. He didn't go in, but walked hesitantly on by.

I looped around the building and pulled up next to him as he stepped off the sidewalk. I told him that I'd asked for one order of fries but gotten two, and as I couldn't eat both and wondered it he'd like the other. He was much thinner than I'd first realized and thanked me for the fires.

I don't KNOW anything, and I'm not trying to pretend that I have evangelical insight to this event. But I believe that God was helping a man who couldn't help himself, and gave me to opportunity to witness it, and even be a small part of it.

Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, and my God bless each and every one of you.

The other day a friend and I were discussing the concept of allowing someone to give you something even if you don't have a need for it.

Not accepting the gift denies the giver the "blessing" of giving their gift.

He took it one step further and said that if someone wants to give him something that he can't use or doesn't need that he will, "Pay it Forward".

In this case that is exactly what you did, you paid it forward.

Yeah it was only an order of fries, but how much does that mean to someone who is hungry and penniless?

I believe that The Holy Spirit often speaks to us, and usually it does so in a "still, small voice".  

Sometimes we listen and are blessed because of it, unfortunately many times we don't hear and deny ourselves.

  
  

[czuch]

Thats exactly it right there. When you are moved, move.
 There are angels among us and you never know where.
A kindness is just that and dosent go unnoticed or unappreciated.
Happy cold time present giving nondescript all inclusive diverse fruit cake having uncelebration.
Or like the say in New York, Ho Ho,,,,,,,Ho

[Robert]

Pax one thing religion does is tell you that you can never measure up. But if you  ask God and expect and listen for a answer I think you will get something completely different. I would never measure up to the standards set by man for a holy Christian yet God uses me in some pretty amazing ways and has always answered me and helped me. I get a kick out of the apostles a bigger bunch of doubters and other not so good attributes you couldn't find yet Peter the one who denied Him 3 times Jesus said on this rock I will build my church. I get great comfort that God used a donkey to talk to a king so if He can use a a## he can use me. I really believe we are much to critical of ourselves and others when in come to defining what a Christian really is. Jesus said it is the one that does the will of my Father that are mine. If we constantly look at the bad in ourselves then we will become discouraged and will maybe even fall away. Ask God how He views you adopt that view.

[Robert]

Most dont read the Bible and if you read and are not getting anything out of it or misunderstanding then you need to keep reading till all the questions are answered.