scoot
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Posts: 909
Lifes too short Ride it hard
Grand Rapids Mi.
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« on: December 11, 2011, 02:10:34 PM » |
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 Some like to ride Fat boys, I think I'll stay with the fat lady |
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Smokinjoe-VRCCDS#0005
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Posts: 13848
American by Birth, Southern by the Grace of God.
Beautiful east Tennessee ( GOD'S Country )
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« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2011, 02:24:03 PM » |
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Truth-in-advertising would be assembled in America....Be American Ride American <----MADE IN CHINA  Thats just sad. |
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« Last Edit: December 11, 2011, 02:52:27 PM by Smokinjoe-VRCCDS#0005 »
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 I've seen alot of people that thought they were cool , but then again Lord I've seen alot of fools. |
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Disco
Member
Posts: 4918
Armed Man=Citizen; Unarmed Man=Subject
Republic of Texas
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« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2011, 02:28:41 PM » |
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Closing the plant is sad. Moving it to China? CHINA???  |
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2000 Bumblebee Tourer, 98 Yellow & Cream Tourer, 97 Rescue blower bike 22 CRF450RL, 19 BMW R1250RT 78 CB550K, 07 Helix 71 MT50 Trailhopper .jpg) VRCC 27,916 IBA 44,783 |
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Buda
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« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2011, 02:29:46 PM » |
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97 Valkyrie 33344  |
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DarkMeister
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« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2011, 02:39:19 PM » |
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So much for the American icon. CHINA? That's disgusting. Absolute crap.
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Chattanooga Mark
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« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2011, 02:55:21 PM » |
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That's sad on so many levels.
Mark
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...do justice, love kindness, walk humbly... The Bible: Read, Apply, Repeat 2012 Victory Cross Country Tour, in all its pearl white beauty www.bikersforchrist.org |
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The Anvil
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« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2011, 03:36:09 PM » |
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Other companies are bringing work home, H-D is shipping it overseas. Can't say I'm surprised. They killed off Buell just to make a point. H-D has become about as soulless a corporation as can exist today.
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Boxer rebellion, the Holy Child. They all pay their rent.
But none together can testify to the rhythm of a road well bent.
Saddles and zip codes, passports and gates, the Jones' keep.
In August the water is trickling, in April it's furious deep.
1997 Valk Standard, Red and White.
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Fudd
Member
Posts: 1733
MSF RiderCoach
Denham Springs, La.
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« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2011, 03:45:28 PM » |
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This could be worse. At least no Americans are losing their jobs with this move. Americans weren't building the wheels anyway, it was the Aussies. I still feel bad for them, though.
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 Save a horse, ride a Valkyrie |
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old2soon
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« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2011, 03:47:00 PM » |
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Havn't been interested in the v twinkies in a long time. Won't go into the reasons as others already have. Trying to figure out if waiting 4 or 5 more weeks would have really helped at all?? I'll just be sure and NOT ask about harley davidson when next in Adelaide Austrailia. Is the h d exec c e o named Ebeneezer Scrooge mayhaps??? RIDE SAFE.
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Today is the tommorow you worried about yesterday. If at first you don't succeed screw it-save it for nite check. 1964 1968 U S Navy. Two cruises off Nam.
VRCCDS0240 2012 GL1800 Gold Wing Motor Trike conversion
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ricoman
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« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2011, 04:33:19 PM » |
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The timing is/was tax related, a year end deadline to post losses/gains on the books.
Been there on the recieving end, back in 1972.
Shame on the folks at Harley who waited to the end. The employees deserved better.
It is way less than fun being without a job at the start of the holidays. But, that's life.
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take personal responsibility and keep your word
98 Tourer, black and chrome, added 8/11/10
98 Std, yellow/cream, totaled 8/3/10
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Disco
Member
Posts: 4918
Armed Man=Citizen; Unarmed Man=Subject
Republic of Texas
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« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2011, 05:52:03 PM » |
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I don't know, but assume many or most of HD's wheels are alloy/tubeless. If that's true, that would suggest cast/machined clean-up or billet/machined. My question is how many cents or dollars per wheel are really being saved by having a what I assume to be a largely automated process performed overseas with the product then shipped here for assembly. Maybe I'm wrong, but I can't see how a few dollars here or there would make that much difference in the overall high cost of their bikes. It would be really cool if there is a followup story at some point about some domestic sub-contractor offering a domestic solution.
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2000 Bumblebee Tourer, 98 Yellow & Cream Tourer, 97 Rescue blower bike 22 CRF450RL, 19 BMW R1250RT 78 CB550K, 07 Helix 71 MT50 Trailhopper VRCC 27,916 IBA 44,783 |
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highcountry
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« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2011, 05:54:13 PM » |
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That sux! It is always better in China, huh? It's really about the CEO's bonus.
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Smokinjoe-VRCCDS#0005
Member
Posts: 13848
American by Birth, Southern by the Grace of God.
Beautiful east Tennessee ( GOD'S Country )
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« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2011, 06:48:35 PM » |
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I don't know, but assume many or most of HD's wheels are alloy/tubeless. If that's true, that would suggest cast/machined clean-up or billet/machined. My question is how many cents or dollars per wheel are really being saved by having a what I assume to be a largely automated process performed overseas with the product then shipped here for assembly. Maybe I'm wrong, but I can't see how a few dollars here or there would make that much difference in the overall high cost of their bikes. It would be really cool if there is a followup story at some point about some domestic sub-contractor offering a domestic solution.
Unless you pay for the Screamin' Eagle package ( $35,000 to $45,000 ) you get some pretty ugly wheels in fact some of the ugliest in the motorcycle industry. |
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I've seen alot of people that thought they were cool , but then again Lord I've seen alot of fools. |
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3fan4life
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Posts: 7028
Any day that you ride is a good day!
Moneta, VA
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« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2011, 07:23:59 PM » |
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I would venture to guess the the real "savings" is in avoiding any EPA costs. Yeah I know that the closing plant is in Australia but I'm sure that the Aussies have something that is at least similar to our EPA. There will come a day that the Chinese will come to regret what they've been doing to their environment. I followed a link from a previous post and found some pics from the US in the early 70's before we got serious about what we were doing to ours: http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2011/11/documerica-images-of-america-in-crisis-in-the-1970s/100190/ We all tend to bash the EPA at times, and at times it does seem that it has gotten power hungry and "out of control", but can you imagine where we would be if it had never existed? |
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1 Corinthians 1:18  |
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BF
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« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2011, 07:46:44 PM » |
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I don't know, but assume many or most of HD's wheels are alloy/tubeless. If that's true, that would suggest cast/machined clean-up or billet/machined. My question is how many cents or dollars per wheel are really being saved by having a what I assume to be a largely automated process performed overseas with the product then shipped here for assembly. Maybe I'm wrong, but I can't see how a few dollars here or there would make that much difference in the overall high cost of their bikes. It would be really cool if there is a followup story at some point about some domestic sub-contractor offering a domestic solution.
Because they can avoid the EPA and pay some 16 year old Chinese girl a bowl of rice and 2 dollars a day to run the machines for them.......that's way.  |
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I can't help about the shape I'm in I can't sing, I ain't pretty and my legs are thin But don't ask me what I think of you I might not give the answer that you want me to  |
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Disco
Member
Posts: 4918
Armed Man=Citizen; Unarmed Man=Subject
Republic of Texas
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« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2011, 08:12:20 PM » |
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that's way. I know that's why. I was wondering how big a difference all those maneuvers really make in the cost of a wheel/bike. |
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2000 Bumblebee Tourer, 98 Yellow & Cream Tourer, 97 Rescue blower bike 22 CRF450RL, 19 BMW R1250RT 78 CB550K, 07 Helix 71 MT50 Trailhopper VRCC 27,916 IBA 44,783 |
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WamegoRob
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« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2011, 09:06:21 PM » |
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Can you imagine how awesome it'd be for them toshift ALL facets of their operation stateside?
To be able to say every part was made and assembled here would be huge.
They'd have to come up off some of the profit in those overpriced things, though... so it would never happen.
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PhredValk
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« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2011, 11:45:41 PM » |
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China, Indonesia, Korea, Mexico...HD is becoming a very nice looking, expensive K Car bike.
I assume they are expecting their motorcycle sales to plummet when they start coming out with radiators, so are going to concentrate in future on their largest money maker;
Clothing sales! (largely from China already)..
Fred.
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Growing old is mandatory, growing up is optional.
VRCCDS0237
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Smokinjoe-VRCCDS#0005
Member
Posts: 13848
American by Birth, Southern by the Grace of God.
Beautiful east Tennessee ( GOD'S Country )
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« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2011, 07:48:07 PM » |
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Can you imagine how awesome it'd be for them toshift ALL facets of their operation stateside?
To be able to say every part was made and assembled here would be huge.
They'd have to come up off some of the profit in those overpriced things, though... so it would never happen.
If you hang around any Harley riders they already do that MADE IN AMERICA deal....I'd like to know just how much Harley farm's out over sea's and Mexico....MADE IN AMERICA ...My ass |
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I've seen alot of people that thought they were cool , but then again Lord I've seen alot of fools. |
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Oss
Member
Posts: 12884
The lower Hudson Valley
Ossining NY Chapter Rep VRCCDS0141
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« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2011, 08:37:02 PM » |
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I refuse to believe that you must build overseas to make money
No doubt is the way Washington has mapped out making money for corporations
with the crazy tax laws
I would not be so fast to blame people wanting clean air, the fat cats are pulling the strings
We dont know who they are hiding behind the scenes, but my guess is its those companies pulling in billions and not paying taxes
what ever happened to the carrot and stick?
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If you don't know where your going any road will take you there
George Harrison
When you come to the fork in the road, take it
Yogi Berra (Don't send it to me C.O.D.)
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Chattanooga Mark
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« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2011, 09:22:04 PM » |
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Here in the greater Chicago area, the taxes (personal and business) have gotten so bad that Sears and the Chicago Mercantile Exchange were threatening to leave. Looks like the state will take a drastic reduction to keep these two companies in Chicago. Guess the other 1000's of local businesses are just stuck paying the rediculous taxes, for now. Many, many are simply looking to move out of the state.
I really don't know the tax or business tax structure in Australia. But companies, like individuals, tend to vote with their money and their feet.
Mark
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« Last Edit: December 12, 2011, 09:40:17 PM by Chicago Mark »
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...do justice, love kindness, walk humbly... The Bible: Read, Apply, Repeat 2012 Victory Cross Country Tour, in all its pearl white beauty www.bikersforchrist.org |
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MCRIDER
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« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2011, 08:51:16 AM » |
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MCRIDER
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« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2011, 08:52:28 AM » |
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Thespian
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« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2011, 09:29:29 AM » |
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that's way. I know that's why. I was wondering how big a difference all those maneuvers really make in the cost of a wheel/bike. John D. Rockefeller, considered the richest man of the time was asked by a journalist, (You have so much money, how much is enough?) Holding his thumb and index finger 1/2" apart he responded. (Just that much more). |
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Smooth is where it's at. (o_0)
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alph
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« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2011, 12:49:33 PM » |
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my boss gave me crap for riding a "Jap" bike, now i can give him crap over riding a "Chink" bike!!  we all knew that this day was coming, all thier clothing is made in china, why not thier bikes?!? if the harley guys only knew how "un-american" harley REALLY is, they'd stop giving other riders so much crap. |
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Promote world peace, ban all religion. Ride Safe, Ride Often!!   |
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VALKIFIED
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« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2011, 01:07:20 PM » |
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Other companies are bringing work home, H-D is shipping it overseas. Can't say I'm surprised. They killed off Buell just to make a point. H-D has become about as soulless a corporation as can exist today.
Couldn't agree more. |
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Some like it fast, some like it long. Valk drivers can give you both   |
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Skinhead
Member
Posts: 8763
J. A. B. O. A.
Troy, MI
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« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2011, 03:29:55 PM » |
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I would venture to guess the the real "savings" is in avoiding any EPA costs. Yeah I know that the closing plant is in Australia but I'm sure that the Aussies have something that is at least similar to our EPA. There will come a day that the Chinese will come to regret what they've been doing to their environment. I followed a link from a previous post and found some pics from the US in the early 70's before we got serious about what we were doing to ours: http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2011/11/documerica-images-of-america-in-crisis-in-the-1970s/100190/We all tend to bash the EPA at times, and at times it does seem that it has gotten power hungry and "out of control", but can you imagine where we would be if it had never existed? Growing up in Pittsburgh, Pa in the 60's and 70's, I can tell you that the air and water was pretty bad, even though it was worse, much worse in the 20's, 30's, 40's. The creek beds used to be stained orange from the mine run off (I'm no expert, but I believe it was from the iron in the water pumped from the mines). Go there now, it's a beautiful city with clean rivers, and clean air. All you have to do to achieve this is close all the steel mills, coal mines, and chemical plants. Oh, and eliminate a couple gazillion jobs. I'm all for clean air and water, but I like to see people given the opportunity to earn a living. When the EPA made it too expensive for industry there, they moved on. |
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« Last Edit: December 15, 2011, 03:31:34 PM by Skinhead »
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MCRIDER
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« Reply #27 on: December 16, 2011, 04:42:27 AM » |
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if the harley guys only knew how "un-american" harley REALLY is, they'd stop giving other riders so much crap.
Then, why don't you tell us? Besides the wheels and suspension, I mean. Give us facts to back it up, not just another "expert" opinion from this board. How about pictures? Show us an OEM part (OEM, NOT some accessory junk) with the tag of where it was made. How about some actual proof, not just some rant from one of the other "experts" on this board? Show us! |
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Smokinjoe-VRCCDS#0005
Member
Posts: 13848
American by Birth, Southern by the Grace of God.
Beautiful east Tennessee ( GOD'S Country )
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« Reply #28 on: December 16, 2011, 05:15:24 AM » |
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if the harley guys only knew how "un-american" harley REALLY is, they'd stop giving other riders so much crap.
Then, why don't you tell us? Besides the wheels and suspension, I mean. Give us facts to back it up, not just another "expert" opinion from this board. How about pictures? Show us an OEM part (OEM, NOT some accessory junk) with the tag of where it was made. How about some actual proof, not just some rant from one of the other "experts" on this board? Show us! Google is a wonderful thing Chrome HD accessory parts...MADE IN CHINA Engines are assembled in Mexico Forks and shocks are from Japan....made by the Showa company As per this thread ....Wheels now ....MADE IN CHINA The chrome pieces are from Asia....no EPA reg's to deal with Most of the lights ...MADE IN CHINA The Sportster brakes are Nissin of Japan Fuel sending units are made in Japan Toyota supplies starters for some models...Not the car company the forklift part The touring bikes have Brembo brakes that are made in Italy ECM has parts made in Yugoslavia It appears the list just goes on and on and on....That $40.00 t-shirt you've got on ...MADE IN CHINA or Bangladesh or Taiwan .....Be American Ride American <----MADE IN CHINA |
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« Last Edit: December 16, 2011, 05:19:55 AM by Smokinjoe-VRCCDS#0005 »
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I've seen alot of people that thought they were cool , but then again Lord I've seen alot of fools. |
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DarkMeister
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« Reply #29 on: December 16, 2011, 05:29:20 AM » |
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Besides the wheels and suspension, I mean. Alph's point is well-taken. I'm sure many HD buyers take pride in riding an "all-american" machine. Most of them will be unaware that a major part of that machine, between rider and pavement, will be brought to you by the fine producers of lead toys, poisoned baby bottles, crumbling drywall and many other unreliable but oh-so-profitable products. But his point is specific about those HD drivers that get in one's face about not riding an American bike. Dude, if that's not enough for you, fill your boots and wait for OEM numbers. All factors being equal and price/value issues aside, I will never put this boney ass into traffic on top of Chinese wheels. I readily admit a severe bias against all things Chinese made. But Harley, of all things? Blasphemous...
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« Last Edit: December 16, 2011, 05:45:17 AM by DarkMeister »
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MCRIDER
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« Reply #30 on: December 16, 2011, 02:59:39 PM » |
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if the harley guys only knew how "un-american" harley REALLY is, they'd stop giving other riders so much crap.
Then, why don't you tell us? Besides the wheels and suspension, I mean. Give us facts to back it up, not just another "expert" opinion from this board. How about pictures? Show us an OEM part (OEM, NOT some accessory junk) with the tag of where it was made. How about some actual proof, not just some rant from one of the other "experts" on this board? Show us! Google is a wonderful thing Chrome HD accessory parts...MADE IN CHINA Engines are assembled in Mexico Forks and shocks are from Japan....made by the Showa company As per this thread ....Wheels now ....MADE IN CHINA The chrome pieces are from Asia....no EPA reg's to deal with Most of the lights ...MADE IN CHINA The Sportster brakes are Nissin of Japan Fuel sending units are made in Japan Toyota supplies starters for some models...Not the car company the forklift part The touring bikes have Brembo brakes that are made in Italy ECM has parts made in Yugoslavia It appears the list just goes on and on and on....That $40.00 t-shirt you've got on ...MADE IN CHINA or Bangladesh or Taiwan .....Be American Ride American <----MADE IN CHINA OEM,remember? Everyone know that the chrome junk is Chinese. OEM, not accessories. My engine was cast, machined and made in Milwaukee. Your grade is "F". I said besides the obvious suspension. Everyone knows it is Showa. Your grade is "F". There is not yet a wheel that is made in China. There isn't even a plant there. Your grade is "F". All of my lamps are GE. Your grade is "F". Maybe you're correct on the fuel sending units, but you show no proof. Your grade is "C". As for Toyota supplying parts, I though all Toyotas were American made. At least, that what I keep reading on this board. How about some proof on which parts of the ECM are made in Yugoslavia. Another "F". |
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Smokinjoe-VRCCDS#0005
Member
Posts: 13848
American by Birth, Southern by the Grace of God.
Beautiful east Tennessee ( GOD'S Country )
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« Reply #31 on: December 16, 2011, 03:08:22 PM » |
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if the harley guys only knew how "un-american" harley REALLY is, they'd stop giving other riders so much crap.
Then, why don't you tell us? Besides the wheels and suspension, I mean. Give us facts to back it up, not just another "expert" opinion from this board. How about pictures? Show us an OEM part (OEM, NOT some accessory junk) with the tag of where it was made. How about some actual proof, not just some rant from one of the other "experts" on this board? Show us! Google is a wonderful thing Chrome HD accessory parts...MADE IN CHINA Engines are assembled in Mexico Forks and shocks are from Japan....made by the Showa company As per this thread ....Wheels now ....MADE IN CHINA The chrome pieces are from Asia....no EPA reg's to deal with Most of the lights ...MADE IN CHINA The Sportster brakes are Nissin of Japan Fuel sending units are made in Japan Toyota supplies starters for some models...Not the car company the forklift part The touring bikes have Brembo brakes that are made in Italy ECM has parts made in Yugoslavia It appears the list just goes on and on and on....That $40.00 t-shirt you've got on ...MADE IN CHINA or Bangladesh or Taiwan .....Be American Ride American <----MADE IN CHINA OEM,remember? Everyone know that the chrome junk is Chinese. OEM, not accessories. My engine was cast, machined and made in Milwaukee. Your grade is "F". I said besides the obvious suspension. Everyone knows it is Showa. Your grade is "F". There is not yet a wheel that is made in China. There isn't even a plant there. Your grade is "F". All of my lamps are GE. Your grade is "F". Maybe you're correct on the fuel sending units, but you show no proof. Your grade is "C". As for Toyota supplying parts, I though all Toyotas were American made. At least, that what I keep reading on this board. How about some proof on which parts of the ECM are made in Yugoslavia. Another "F". OEM REMEMBER  And your grade is M....I.....C Be American , Ride American ....MADE IN CHINA |
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« Last Edit: December 16, 2011, 03:10:39 PM by Smokinjoe-VRCCDS#0005 »
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I've seen alot of people that thought they were cool , but then again Lord I've seen alot of fools. |
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The Anvil
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« Reply #32 on: December 16, 2011, 03:16:44 PM » |
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Besides the wheels and suspension, I mean. Alph's point is well-taken. I'm sure many HD buyers take pride in riding an "all-american" machine. Most of them will be unaware that a major part of that machine, between rider and pavement, will be brought to you by the fine producers of lead toys, poisoned baby bottles, crumbling drywall and many other unreliable but oh-so-profitable products. But his point is specific about those HD drivers that get in one's face about not riding an American bike. Dude, if that's not enough for you, fill your boots and wait for OEM numbers. All factors being equal and price/value issues aside, I will never put this boney ass into traffic on top of Chinese wheels. I readily admit a severe bias against all things Chinese made. But Harley, of all things? Blasphemous... Buying a Harley means that the person cares enough about American business that supporting that American based business gives one a sense of pride. I've come to internet "blows" with some members here in the process of defending H-D. I'm not hater so I hope it carries some weight when I tell you that you're full of crap. |
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Boxer rebellion, the Holy Child. They all pay their rent.
But none together can testify to the rhythm of a road well bent.
Saddles and zip codes, passports and gates, the Jones' keep.
In August the water is trickling, in April it's furious deep.
1997 Valk Standard, Red and White.
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Grumpy
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« Reply #33 on: December 16, 2011, 03:22:41 PM » |
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Not a Harley hater either, but a good friend works for Harley in St Pete Fl, believe me at least half of the parts they get are made over seas. I have seen genuine harley parts, made in Taiwan, Italy, China and Japan. wiring harness made in Mexico etc, etc. But that is just the way business works now, I would bet that the car you are driving has a multitude of parts made some where other than the USA.
The Dodge ram I have was assembled in Mexico, and most of the parts were made some where else.
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 Life is like a hot bath. It feels good while you’re in it, but the longer you stay in, the more wrinkled you get. |
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Jess Tolbirt
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« Reply #34 on: December 16, 2011, 07:25:32 PM » |
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even honda has gone back to japan,, how many years ago was that?
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Valkyrie member # 23084
Started out on old forum on day one but lost my member number.
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Smokinjoe-VRCCDS#0005
Member
Posts: 13848
American by Birth, Southern by the Grace of God.
Beautiful east Tennessee ( GOD'S Country )
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« Reply #35 on: December 16, 2011, 07:38:31 PM » |
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even honda has gone back to japan,, how many years ago was that?
After the American made Valkyrie...I'll take Japan engineering over MADE IN CHINA anyday |
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I've seen alot of people that thought they were cool , but then again Lord I've seen alot of fools. |
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RoadKill
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« Reply #36 on: December 16, 2011, 07:41:55 PM » |
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If I buy a Harley, I support the nice people at the dealership..they live HERE IN U.S.A! If I buy at the Honda dealer next door....THEY LIVE HERE TOO! Either way, some rich executive is hiding money in an offshore bank. Does it mater what country they hide it in if they do not spend it here locally like I did?
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Jess Tolbirt
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« Reply #37 on: December 16, 2011, 07:42:41 PM » |
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i am with ya there Joe about the china made stuff,, but at one time both bikes were made in the USA but Honda bailed on us first,,,
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Valkyrie member # 23084
Started out on old forum on day one but lost my member number.
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C908
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« Reply #38 on: December 16, 2011, 08:15:57 PM » |
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One thing that has always bothered me is when I see an American flag that says made in China. I have worked in the retail industry for many years and can tell you not many things are made in the USA. Having that cheap labor plays a very large roll in keeping the profits up so those at Corporate level can keep getting their fat checks. Let's not forget about the CEO'S getting the fattest checks of them all.I work for JC Penney in a lower management position at store level and received word about 6 weeks ago my position is being eliminated as of March 3rd. This change is company wide due to Corporate cutbacks. It's what the Occupy Movement is all about, cutting out as much expense as possible in the lower levels by any means possible including outsourcing work for the cheapest possible labor rates. Hear is the kicker JC Penney had a wage freeze in 2008 and 2009. We were told this had to be done because the economy was in such bad shape and the company was expieriencing losses. Update in 2010 the CEO was paid a 13 million dollar one year package and has since retired. We now have a new CEO taking over and word is there will be more changes coming to eliminate more positions. We also just finished a 1 million dollar remodel at the store I work at. I am trying to keep a positive attitude but I must admit it is a challenge with the given facts. I do thank GOD I have my health and have many things to be thankful for.We live in some troubled times and our country is heading for a wall and it's only a matter of time before we hit it. I look back and remember my biggest fear was being drafted and going to Vietnam. It turned out that never happened and so many other things at the time were good. Today it seems like everything is out of control. I guess that is why I feel so good when I am riding my bike listening to some good Rock & Roll and enjoying the wind.
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