How the heck did our judicial system get here?

[Titan]

Why does our judicial system even allow a thing like this to be filed?

Woman Sues Bar for Not Checking Her ID.

She's underage. She buys drinks. She drives. She gets paralyzed. Blames everybody else! 

http://www.wltx.com/news/article/165138/2/Woman-Sues-Bar-for-Not-Checking-Her-ID

[R J]

That is caused by shade tree lawyers who chase accidents.

You can file any kind of a lawsuit, but that doesn't mean you'll win anything.

Especially if the party being sued has a good attorney.

[Titan]

That is caused by shade tree lawyers who chase accidents.

You can file any kind of a lawsuit, but that doesn't mean you'll win anything.

Especially if the party being sued has a good attorney.

I know R.J. And that's a sorry state of affairs. Such BS shouldn't be allowed in the first place. I don't think it will ever get better, but will only get worse. I'm sure we will all agree that it's certainly not fair to defendants in such BS case due to all the money and time it's going to cost them. I think if a blood-sucking lawyer takes such a case that he should have to do 3 months in jail when he loses and pay restitution to the defendants! There ya go! Problem solved. Yeah, I know. I'm being extreme.

[Big Rig]

You are not the only one that feels that way....

[ChromeDome]

You would like to think that the courts would look at this and toss it out. I'm sure that's what McDonalds thought when that lady sued them because they didn't mention that the coffe she just got at the drive-up was hot and she ended getting burned when it spilled into her lap while she was driving. If I'm not mistaken, she won some serious $$$.

So as whacko as this lawsuit sounds ... there is no telling which way the courts will decide.

[amazngrace]

In some countries, they have "loser pays" rules. You lose and
you pay your lawyer AND their lawyer.

Sounds like a good solution, but no politician would ever
pass something like that.

..ED

[old2soon]

Stunned be a good word. So is disbelief. I'm thinking that female and her shyster BOTH need to be seriously beat about the head and shoulders. Astonished really P Od pick one boys and girls. I would like very much to think that the judicial system in South Carolina has some judges that can actually use their head for something besides a place to park their hat. Would someone in the great state of S.C. please try to keep us updated on this particular idiocy?? RIDE SAFE.

[fudgie]

Kit was never carded till she was 21. She bought drinks all the time from 18+.

[Willow]

Anyone can file a suit for any reason.  It's really only meaningful news if a settlement is granted and collected.

One always has the option of countersuing to recoup the cost of defending oneself against an unreasonable claim.

I just hope the defendants don't cave in to avoid the publicity.

P.S.  The bartender does bear guilt.  It just seems ridiculous for the underaged drinker to play the accuser.    

[Oss]

Oss puts on his nomex suit and goggles...............

If your 15 year old daughter who looks 21 picks up a man in a bar
NO DRINKING INVOLVED and gets preggers guess who is in jail for
statutory rape

If that girl is 20 and doesnt get carded.....

well she should have been carded shouldnt she

it would be different, or would it, if she used fake ID like all the kids have

the Mothers against drunk driving were a huge force for raising the drinking age to 21 after so many people worked so hard to get it to 18.  You can serve your country and vote and cant drink

AN ABOMINATION   18 should be the universal age for voting, military service, riding a valkyrie (made it Valk related )and legal majority *not to say a younger kid cant marry with parental consent or age of sexual consent which
are a whole other subject

All the kids who have fake ID  and it is just about ALL OF THEM are potential criminals
because of the change in the law

Now I am not defending the gal who SHOULD have known better and I damn sure hope she and her lawyer get the case tossed but there is always more to a case than meets the eye

The drinking age IMNSHO should be 18. People should be carded not just men. We all know a bar wants women in to attract men, and thats how its always been  Its why they have ladies nite

And if the gal used fake id I hope that comes out in depositions

[Lyn-Del]

A lot of places I've been card anyone under 40, some say anyone under 60.

I only got carded once when I was underage (15), but bought the beer anyway.  I've been carded 3 times this year.  I've bought alcohol 3 times this year.

[donaldcc]

  Have to side with OSS here.  I do not think the right question is "How the heck did our judicial system get here?" but does this person have a legitimate complaint to be decided in a court of law.  

  South Carolina has laws against selling alcohol to minors or to intoxicated persons.  if bar did not check the ID and sold her alcohol, they broke the law.

  Most states have "dram shop laws"  making drinking establishments responsible for the actions of drunks that they served alcohol.  If this girl had been served alcohol illegally, became drunk and because of that caused an accident injuring your family, then your family could proceed in court against the bar and certainly should be encouraged to do so.  this would be in addition to seeking damages against the driver.

  In SC an "adult" cannot proceed in court against a drinking establishment for a "first party" case or for their own injuries.  but here, alcohol was served to a girl not old enough to drink and she may have a valid action against the bar???

   So . . . I am PROUD to live in a place where an injured party can seek out justice in a court and have the FACTS presented to have a judge or jury decide the outcome rather than someone who doesn't really know the true facts but has a "feeling" about what is right or wrong without really knowing the true story.

   Maybe the question should not be questioning our judicial system but why was a young person out getting drunk and driving and who encouraged the alcohol intake by profiting from its sale?

here are the complaints and answers filed in the above matter.

 https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=1n_OCrng2Cr0kWrCRPmD5DTLlFqV9pDqpu29bDDkB6Q958WZMwvxAJ9emf2BD&hl=en_US

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=1eDEoWta4jap3F7ZYcW0-jJSvzvxZLGzMqjXgYKKDxTboSWzCoYFozrVbcEJH&hl=en_US

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=1YAyjMe0VI829HYUXSerl8GRWEBHeXHViVQgFaJNFCEb5xraJr63WRx_FadtW&hl=en_US

Oss let me borrrow the nomex suit and goggles.  

[Jess from VA]

Dram shop liability laws and cases have been around for decades.  Going after a tavern for serving a drunk or a minor is very old news.  Most State laws require a tavern to be sure they do not serve underage/minors, but if she showed fake ID and it was plausible then perhaps the tavern acted reasonably.  But even if she had fake ID and reasonably passed for 21, did the tavern then serve her after she was drunk?   And drunk used to mean drunk, now it means someone has .08 BAC (which ain't much).  

http://www.cfif.org/htdocs/freedomline/current/guest_commentary/dram_shop_liability.htm


Each case has to be decided on it's own facts, and we don't know all the facts in this case.

Say your daughter of 17-20 was not carded at a bar, got drunk and wrecked her car and got hurt?

You'd be pissed at the tavern, and have a pretty good case.  But what if she had fake ID and it was good and believable?  

The civil case here may be better for serving a drunk, than serving a minor (if she had fake ID).

How much liability insurance do you think most bars carry?  With good reason.


I was once a bartender, and trying to follow the rules is hard to do.  I got fired for stopping the (very drunken) owner (former linebacker for MI State U) from punching an old man (at least 70s).  I know he was drunk, I made him a dozen Manhattans.  I was 22yo.  I'd do it again (stop him from punching someone, not work in a bar).

I agree with OSS that drinking age should be 18.....AND SO SHOULD THE LAW FOR FIREARM
OWNERSHIP BE 18.

However, I think you should have to be qualified to have children.

[donaldcc]

  Agree with above.  Frequently too many people trying to shift the blame.  Girl's complaint does not mention fake ID (would be surprised if it did) .  But the club's answer to complaint does not mention fake ID either.  They mostly concentrate on her contributory negligence and they are not responsible.

  this is what the courts are for, let them duke it out, get the facts out under oath and let some fair minded person decide who is right or wrong.  

  don't get drunk and drive is the lesson to take from this.



  

[Jess from VA]

Just a little timely postscript here.

Dramshop liability logic has often been applied to private persons.  So if you like to throw parties (like New Years Eve parties), you should know that if someone gets drunk at your house and kills/maims someone on the way home, you can lose everything you own. It is unlikely that any insurance you have would cover the damages or defend the civil suit.  And any insurance you do have will fight you tooth and nail to avoid coverage. So you're on your own.  With serious damages, it could easily cost you $10-20K to defend such a case, and even if you win you're out $10-20K (you will not get your attorney fee back, unless the case against you was a sham).

Anyone who serves guests more than two or three drinks at their house, ought to give them a bed or a floor or a taxi ride home.  But many friends will not take you up on your offer, and if you insist and take their keys, they may punch your nose.  Yet you are at risk every bit as much as they are if they cause vehicular damages.  Even if a couple are your lifetime friends, if they lose their principle breadwinner, all bets are off on that friendship.  It then comes down to survival and business.  And they will have no problem getting a liability lawyer to take the case, on a contingent fee, meaning it costs them nothing (unless they win).

The rule of thumb used to be one ounce of liquor or one beer per hour could metabolize in your system to keep you at or under .10 BAC (blood alcohol content), which for many years was the national standard for drunk driving.  I think most States are down to .08, and some even at .05.  But that is skewed by body weight, food intake and personal fitness.  And many people take prescription meds (esp as we get older) which do not interact with alcohol well at all.  Do you know what meds your party goers take?  Of course you don't.

I don't do New Years parties anymore.  Even sober, you have to be nuts to be driving that night in an urban area with all the drunks and DUI checkpoints. I had some great ones in the past, but have difficulty remembering them.


 

[donaldcc]

Just a little timely postscript here. . . . .

 PPS
  i think it sort of depends on the state.  one can certainly not serve minors alcohol in their home and expect to not have some responsibility.  I think serving adults alcohol in your home is a different story and does not have the liability that a business that profits from alcohol sales may have.  

 south carolina seems to insulate social hosts from those liabilities.


South Carolina Laws & Regulations Summary: (in part)
Social Host Liability Laws: Generally, there is no liability for a social host for the actions of his adult guests. Social host is liable for actions of a minor resulting from serving minor alcohol at host's event. (Barnes v Cohen Dry Wall, 357 SC 280 (Ct. App. 2003).

  that said, i consume adult beverages, sometimes in excess.   however, i am now much wiser than my younger days and dont put myself or others at risk when i do exceed certain limits (modify: well maybe a few bumps and bruises from stumbling around and bumping into things  )   i do not want to think of some of my youthful times that could have turned out differently.

 that said, i really enjoy having friends over and knocking down a few and knowing i just have to make it to the bedroom.   i always have a place for a guest who is "over the limit"

  back to topic, what a tragedy for this young girl.  i'm glad it is not my daughter with such a tragedy.

[ricoman]

She obviously knew that she was underage and drinking.
I doubt she was forced to go to the bar and get drunk.
How is it that she has no personal responsibility for her actions?

[CISE]

She obviously knew that she was underage and drinking.
I doubt she was forced to go to the bar and get drunk.
How is it that she has no personal responsibility for her actions?

I think you asked the most pertinent question Ricoman (and I agree) - Society (not government) has been insisting that everyone else is responsible for their actions for years. Parents are not responsible for their kids actions - people are not responsible for grooming while driving and causing accidents --- etc etc (I guess as I get closer to the double nickle age I get less tolerant about stupidity).

BTW - yes the bar should have carded her, but they didn't. The bar broke the law - so did she when she bought booze as an underage person. 

[Hoser]

When I was a young man in Kansas, the drinking age was 18, but you couldn't vote until 21. I served in the Navy three years before I could vote.  Now it is the opposite.  Whut's up with that?  Never could figure that one out.  ???  Hoser

[Lyn-Del]

She obviously knew that she was underage and drinking.
I doubt she was forced to go to the bar and get drunk.
How is it that she has no personal responsibility for her actions?

Underage folks are considered to be not mature enough to decide to accept the risks, etc., that go with drinking.  Since she was underage, I guess that means it's not her fault since she wasn't capable of making the decision?

I don't do New Years parties anymore.  Even sober, you have to be nuts to be driving that night in an urban area with all the drunks and DUI checkpoints. I had some great ones in the past, but have difficulty remembering them.

I have made it a point not to drive on "amateur night" for the past 30 years or so ...... amateur drinkers are the worst drivers!  Regardless of where they do their drinking.

[3fan4life]

Underage folks are considered to be not mature enough to decide to accept the risks, etc., that go with drinking.  Since she was underage, I guess that means it's not her fault since she wasn't capable of making the decision?

Here's my issue with this....

The laws tend to say that a minor isn't responible, yet our government continues to charge and try younger and younger children as adults.................

http://www.come-over.to/fasstar/juvcrime1.htm


My problem is that right now the government has it's cake and is eating it too as far as this is concerned.

Oh and BTW while the outcome was indeed tragic, the girl was 20 yrs old (not a minor) and as such if she were to commit ANY crime she would be charged and punished as an adult, if she had been stopped by the police prior to her wreck she would've received a DUI, therefore she should bear at least some responsibility for her actions.

[ricoman]

 therefore she should bear at least some responsibility for her actions.
[/quote]




and others should bear the rest of the responsibility for "her" actions?
NO, plain and simple. Her actions are her responsibility.

[Lyn-Del]

NO, plain and simple. Her actions are her responsibility.

I agree.  My earlier post was simply me trying to guess what the reasoning would be. 

I'm a very non-litigious person, so I can very rarely see the justification in filing suit in the first place.

[bscrive]

We need to bring back personal responsibility.  If a person drinks at an establishment and gets drunk and drives, it should be their own fault.  They made the choice to start drinking when they were of 'sound mind'.

[musclehead]

in front of a fair and impartial judge (ahem) it'll be tossed. there is a rule of 'clean hands' you can't/shouldn't be allowed to bring a lawsuit when you have done something illegal.