bearing noise or clutch plates

[hrapp]

well, i pulled the clutch plates and looked at the dampener plates. all the rivets are still there. there's a slight wobble, very slight. the bottom of the case is very clean, no metal at all. the slave cylinder and rod are nice and wet. i rotated the output shaft, feels ok i think. i wonder if should go south to the drive line or not. does anyone have suggestions. i'm stumped. denial about the output shaft bearing inside the case is setting in.  the problem is the grinding and starts when the clutch is pulled in , i start off in gear and the clutch shudders, i hear the grinding in any gear cruising. everyone says the dampener plate rivets, but all is intact. now what? are those mechanics right about the bearing? i don't want to buy an engine for a $50 part.

[Hook#3287]

Wow, sounds like your plate wasn't the problem.  When mine went, three or four rivets were sitting in the bottom of the case.  The wobble thing is interesting.

All my bikes feel/sound different when the engine is running and I pull the clutch in.  But no grinding.

Have you tried a stethoscope?   Maybe that may help to locate the source of the grinding.

Have you inspected the motor oil?  I wouldn't expect anything there even if a bearing went, but it might.  Maybe some metal shavings?

I hope you don't need a tear down, It would be the first Valk I've heard about that wasn't a blown or super charged.

Good luck.

[bentwrench]

An oil analysis from blackstone labswww.blackstone-labs.comcould be helpful in determining if it's case,bearing or gear material.I had mine done at 70k just to see how healthy it was.The report came back clean.
BW

[Hook#3287]

I went back and re-read your first post.  If your a machinist, you'll have a better grip on things than what I can tell you.  

Service manual has no check procedure for the Damper Plate.  It's been 8 years since I had one in my hands, but if the rivets are all in the right place and it's not warped, it should be good.  Sounds like everything else is in order.  If the lifter bearing is good, the plates aren't warped or gouged and the basket is right, your clutch should be good.  Check your clutch spring.

I'd be stumped as you are and I wonder if I'd put the clutch back together and hope that was it (doubtful) or go futher inside looking for a problem.

I've never been any farther than the clutch, so I'm of no help.

[hrapp]

i have a stethoscope and heard the noise all around the clutch cover and near the basket case when the handle was pulled in. i didn't check the old oil for metal shavings, they should have added a magnet to the drain plug, but i never let it go more than 5k miles. what could be causing the shuddering when i take off in gear? i do have some wear at the rear wheel splines and ring gear, never checked u joint either, but that is not causing the noise. the transmission shifting in gears up/down moving or not is smooth. i'll go as far as i dare to go before splitting the cases. then who knows.
    i'm new to this posting stuff, and learning to posts pics. i made the holder plate/ bought the metric bolts, removing the snap ring and plates was the easy part, putting them back in, well, not yet.

[3W-lonerider]

not sure on your noise. but a worn clutch will shutter. a couple of years ago mine got so bad i could'nt even start out going uphill without feeling something was going to fly apart.. installed a new clutch and everything was fine again. my dampner plate looked good as well as all the friction plates. so i would deffinatly say your in need of a new clutch..

[Valkpilot]

I don't believe there should be any looseness or play in a new or "good" damper plate.  There are flat spring-metal spacers between the outer plates of the damper plate assembly. It should compress very slightly under pressure.  If there is too much play,  I think the rivets may be starting to loosen.

Your problem could also be caused by a weakening center clutch spring.

I recommend changing the clutch stack, plates, damper, and spring since you've got everything apart already.

[hrapp]

i didn't mike the friction pads. no discoloration of the pressure plates. i may have caught this in time to swap out to a new dampener only, since spring and other plates still look good. 

[Hook#3287]

Posting pics takes patience.  

Noises when running down the road are hard to locate.  They can seem to come from the engine area but are coming from the rear end or vis versa.

Try lifting the rear end and spinning the tire in neutral.  Check for slap in the drive train.

The wobble in the clutch you mentioned is suspect.

If you pulled the plugs and set up something to turn the motor over by the crank nut, maybe you can locate the grinding while the clutch is out.  You could squirt some oil in the cylinders first.

shifting in gears up/down moving or not is smooth

Does this statement mean it shifts smooth or it doesn't shift smooth?

These bikes don't change gears as smooth as some other bikes, so it's hard to tell if yours is harder than normal or not.  You'd have to compare it with another Valk.

All thought I've never had the spline and ring gear problem, I believe if wear there was bad enough, it could cause the shuddering on take off.
 
Can you put the clutch case back on w/o the clutch?  I don't know if that's ok or not.  You could fill the motor with oil, run it, check for vibration, then have that oil checked.

Do you have a service manual?  

Can the rear case be removed w/o pulling the motor? It looks like it may.  You could check the Primary Gears/Output Shaft?

Looks like you can at least check the output shaft bearing easily by removing the cover.

Lastly, where are you located?  Maybe someone with Valk experience could come by.

[RTaz]

Had my Red/white 97 Valk making a grinding noise when clutch was pulled...changed this bearing.


also replaced the the ring.



all is well.

[hrapp]

assembly is not a problem, just haven't done it yet. as far as shifting, shifts fine, there's some slop at the rear wheel like wore u joint, i don't take-off fast, shudders when releasing the clutch slowly. i haven't removed the tran rear cover yet. i live in rosharon texas, 25 miles south of houston. anybody near me?

[Hook#3287]

What RTaz said   

91008-MN5-003     BEARING (6201)   $13.96

22322-MZ0-000      PLATE B, CLUTCH  $56.08

[RainMaker]

assembly is not a problem, just haven't done it yet. as far as shifting, shifts fine, there's some slop at the rear wheel like wore u joint, i don't take-off fast, shudders when releasing the clutch slowly. i haven't removed the tran rear cover yet. i live in rosharon texas, 25 miles south of houston. anybody near me?

You have an amazing group of Valkyrie riders in the Houston Area and some of the best wrench parties anywhere.  Go to the Texas board and post this. 

RainMaker

[Ricky-D]

The clutch pack when installed, should have no wobble.

***

[Valkpilot]

The clutch pack when installed, should have no wobble.

***

I thought he was referring to the damper plate.  It didn't occur to me that he might be talking about the entire clutch pack.

[hrapp]

even thou the lifter plate bearing feels smooth, i'm just going to replace it and also the dampener plate. a new gasket and button it up and see what happens. i'll try posting this to the houston valkyrie riders too while i wait for my parts. thanks. if you all think of anything else, please let me know.

[Highbinder]

Have you check the pinion cup on the rear end where the drive shaft connects, if this is worn it will make a grinding noise and slip.

[Mr.BubblesVRCCDS0008]

hrapp    I'm on the northest side of Houston. Where abouts are you located.
     Like was metioned before several good mechs in the Houston area.

[hrapp]

i have not checked the drive line, pinion cup. will that grinding noise be made with the clutch engaged in neutral?
since i'm there i might just pull the u joint to check the wear.
 i'm right off 288s five miles past hwy 6.

[Hook#3287]

will that grinding noise be made with the clutch engaged in neutral?

No, that won't cause grinding noise when the bike isn't moving.

You should check all that area anyways while the bike is down.

Looks like you've got some help on the way.

Good luck.

[Ricky-D]

i have not checked the drive line, pinion cup. will that grinding noise be made with the clutch engaged in neutral?
since i'm there i might just pull the u joint to check the wear.
 i'm right off 288s five miles past hwy 6.

Ok, so now I'm confused.

There is naturally going to be a noise with the transmission in neutral and the clutch engaged. (lever not depressed). 
There are many that don't understand the term "clutch engaged" and refer only to the position of the clutch lever.

If the noise goes away when you are in neutral and the clutch lever is pulled in, well that can eliminate a lot of causes of the noise and can also point to there being no real problem.

I was thinking originally that the noise you hear is normal turning (rotation) noises that are consistent with the type transmission in our Valkyries.

Have you tried changing the type of oil or the manufacturer of the oil you use? This can be a possible reason for the shudder when engaging the clutch and not necessarily a bad clutch. It (the oil) could be a reason for all the noise you hear.

The only worrisome thing so far is that you can hear the noise while riding, in all the gears.

And lastly, when trying to determine whether or not a bearing is bad, size is all important. The smaller the bearing the more difficult it is in determining quality, of the bearing.

***

[hrapp]

my bad. too early in a.m. didn't have me coffee yet.

1) clutch lever pulled in "disengaged", trans. in neutral. i hear and feel a severe grinding.
2) with clutch lever still pulled in and put in 1st gear, the noise fades away.
3) releasing the clutch lever slowly in 1st gear the transmission or drive-line shudders.
4) shifting into higher gears the noise comes back while cruising, 50+mph.

the bike only has 62,000 miles, i have driven all but 1800 miles of that.

slave cylinder bearing, rods, clutch pads, plates, dampener plate, spring all look good. no metal pieces found.
engine oil used always honda hn4 no more than 5k miles between changes.
i have not removed the clutch basket. or the drive-line (u joint, shaft, etc..) final drive oil has been changed 3x.

[Ricky-D]

I think first off, look at these two statements:

1) clutch lever pulled in "disengaged", trans. in neutral. i hear and feel a severe grinding.
2) with clutch lever still pulled in and put in 1st gear, the noise fades away.

Actually there is nothing happening (going from 1 TO 2) within the transmission with regard to anything turning.
Now this statement has to be tempered a bit if your clutch is dragging.
So the next statement:

3) releasing the clutch lever slowly in 1st gear the transmission or drive-line shudders.

Indicates a clutch problem, ie: the plates are sliding unevenly against each other which indicates worn plates or inadequate clutch plate pressure or improper oil.
As I earlier stated, the most worrisome thing is what you state:

4) shifting into higher gears the noise comes back while cruising, 50+mph.

I am sure you can eliminate any drive line problem if you can feel no vibration while cruising and this is only with respect to the "severe grinding" that you experience. A worn u-joint will cause vibration however but will not be demonstrated sitting still.

Since you have already had the clutch cover off and looked inside the area and found cleanliness, more inspection can still occur but that would require additional steps to remove and disassemble the clutch pack.

My suggestion would be to see if there is any wobble in the clutch pack or unevenness when turning it by hand. There isn't much you can do aside from removing the clutch pack in this regard.

What I would do is what RTaz  is recommending (see repy #9) which is to replace the bearing (91008-MN5-003) about 12 bucks or so and if the bearing is loose in the Plate Clutch Lifter (22361-MN5-000) about 34 bucks, then that would also need replacing. About 50 bucks total.


If you already have everything all buttoned up, I can't express more strongly about determining whether or not your clutch is dragging.

When you first get on the bike in the morning the clutch has a natural tendency overnight to want to lock up a bit which you can feel as a lurch when you put it in gear, but then after that you should not have that anymore while the bike is warm and in use.

Using my experience as an example, I find (hear) a lot of rotational noise with the motor running, the transmission in neutral and the clutch engaged. (lever out)     When I pull the lever in, in this scenario the noise instantly abates which means all the rotating parts that were turning due to the clutch being engaged are now stopped. A good indicator that the clutch is not dragging.

So what happens with your bike?  Is your clutch dragging or is it not dragging.

Regardless, I'd spend the money for that bearing and check for slop (wobble) in the clutch pack as long as you have it apart still.

Just a little extra note here: You cannot properly inspect the clutch without removing it from the motor and then disassemble the clutch pack to look at the plates, damper and spring, so when you say they "look good", it is only from an outside inspection that will not really reveal very much at all.

My apologies for such a long post.

***

[MP]

Two issues?

The higher speed one sounds more like a u-joint beginning to fail, or possible spline problem.  Checked?

MP

[hrapp]

i think your right on the two issues. i have been looking at the clutch cover and noticed the seal going out. i need to pull the slave cylinder apart and look at the piston. the clutch oil was low too. the u joint  needs to be looked at also. i wonder if the lifter rod is sitting off center, if the piston is worn. the lifter has some tarnish. any one know the dimensions of the rod and lifter tolerance diameters? its not bent. the lifter has an oil groove, right? the manual is not clear on this.

1) the spring checks .205 height                               (.200 is min.)
2) friction plates check .155 thickness                       (.140 min.)
3) dampener plate checks no more than .002 warpage  (.012 max) these are limits from the service manual

fyi: i had something like gummy substance in the clutch line 2 years ago. had to blow it back out. looked like a wad of gum.
can't wait to see this again:(