I'm in hot water

[bigguy]

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[BonS]

Yikes, that's a bummer. What is the gpm rating and the scfm consumption rate of your new heater? In any case you're doing the right thing making sure that your gas line is not starving the new heater for btu's.

[bigguy]

9.5 gpm. I figured the 7.5 would be adequate, but when I went to pick one up they didn't have them in stock.
with shipping, I was only saving about $50.00 ordering the smaller one over just taking the 9.5 they had in stock.
I don't know the numbers on gas usage. I've just been warned MANY times to not try and get by with the 1/2" line. I climbed under the house and found a 3/4 inch line running to within about 25 feet of the location. somebody came off of it with a 1/2 line when they put in the old water heater. There is a coupling already in place where they installed the old line. I'll just replace all of that with a 3/4" line.

[laserpat]

Looks like a good install!! It would be a good idea to pressure test the gas lines. Lp or natural?

[bigguy]

Natural. Several years ago when I moved into the house and had the gas turned on, the guy from the gas company went through the house with me turning off all gas the gas valves. Then, when he turned on the gas, he just watched the meter for a few minutes to see if it moved. If I do it myself, I'll do that as well as use soapy water on the joints I put together. Not professional I know, but I haven't blown myself up in 40 years.

[Master Blaster]

Just replaced the one that runs my Master Bath.  I went bigger also, love being in hot water no matter how long the shower.  Wasnt too tough a Job, hardest was singlehandidly pulling out the old one and getting the new one set in the drip pan.  I have 3, and one of them is in the attic.  Hope I dont have to replace it anytime soon.  Mine are natural gas also, and run 26-27 bux a month. 

[old2soon]

When i lived in Garrison Tx myself and another guy were the gas meter readers and repair guys there. We had a fancy high dollar "sniffer" but the tried and true method was soapy water. At that time we did not charge for checking out new lines from the meter and those in the house. But that was 1978-to early 1980. Did not really use that "sniffer" much anyway. RIDE SAFE.

[Daniel Meyer]

Oooo yeah...we LOVE our tankless...

Ours is mounted in a cabinet in the external wall



Hooked into a pex/manifold system



No stack, no closet needed in the house, probably cut our hot water part of the bill by 50% or more, *NEVER* out of hot water...and we are VERY happy with the choice to do this.

http://theoldvictorian.com/2010/10/11/plumbing-phase-two-and-seven-eighths/

[Robert]

Bigguy sorry about that that stinks but is the lines that runs off the meter at least 3/4? When I put in my generator had to do a 1 inch line and the new plastic and metal lines were pretty neat.

Daniel Meyer Awesome   job that really looks great. I like the inline filters something I need to do in my house. The place is really coming along, I cant believe how much work the whole thing is. You are a inspiration  to me, I look and say if you can do it, I can do the much smaller bit I have to but the projects dont seem to end 

[musclehead]

well when your in hot water don't let the natives slice up turnips and potatoes and carrots in the water with you, cause you know whats next

[CajunRider]

If I do it myself, I'll do that as well as use soapy water on the joints I put together. Not professional I know, but I haven't blown myself up in 40 years.

That's better than the method I used to test my quick-connect attachment on my outdoor gas burners...

Turned it on and passed over all the joints with a cigarette lighter...   

Of course... this is just an outdoor burner that the tank is only connected to while in use...   

[PAVALKER]

Ok... you guys with Gas On Demand Hot Water heaters.......  have you noticed any "savings" or not?  How about service or maintenance issues.... I was told they need annual cleaning service.

[Karen]

Wow, a total bummer to do that much work, then have to go back to the original, but it looks like you're almost there. Good luck, and enjoy your new hot water as soon as you are able.

[Jabba]

I am 8 years into a Rinnai tankless water heater.  WAY WAY 

I can't claim savings or not.  Too many other variables... but the math says YES.  AND... it'll cut your AC bill in the summer... How you ask?  Where does the heat go when you're reheating the stored water all the time?  into your house, and then you have to run the AC to get rid of it.

You are supposed to flush them yearly with a vinegar solution, and clean the strainer.  EASY.  Less than an hour total.

The REALLY trick part is that I have an aquastat by my master shower... if I want a 110F bath or shower... set the temp, and turn on the HOT water.  No remixing!!  which is cheaper too.

I also installed a hot water hose bib.  Why?  So I can was the Valk on those 50-60 degree spring days and not freeze my fingers off.  Plus hot water gets the bug goo off A LOT better than cold.

 

Jabba

PS.  If I replace mine... I am going to go with a Navien.  They are higher efficiency, and vent thru PVC.  Last I heard... Rinnai still had proprietary vent pipe.

 

[PAVALKER]

I am 8 years into a Rinnai tankless water heater.  WAY WAY 

I can't claim savings or not.  Too many other variables... but the math says YES.  AND... it'll cut your AC bill in the summer... How you ask?  Where does the heat go when you're reheating the stored water all the time?  into your house, and then you have to run the AC to get rid of it.

You are supposed to flush them yearly with a vinegar solution, and clean the strainer.  EASY.  Less than an hour total.

The REALLY trick part is that I have an aquastat by my master shower... if I want a 110F bath or shower... set the temp, and turn on the HOT water.  No remixing!!  which is cheaper too.

I also installed a hot water hose bib.  Why?  So I can was the Valk on those 50-60 degree spring days and not freeze my fingers off.  Plus hot water gets the bug goo off A LOT better than cold.

 

Jabba

PS.  If I replace mine... I am going to go with a Navien.  They are higher efficiency, and vent thru PVC.  Last I heard... Rinnai still had proprietary vent pipe.

 

8 years into it isn't bad, but I've had standard water heaters last much longer than that and at a fraction of the cost.  Life cycle of those tankless is "supposedly" 25 years if I recall....  Now it would have to generate a significant operation savings to justify the initial cost compared to a standard water heater.  Hopefully your talk of replacing yours with the Navien is out of want rather than need??? 

What is this issue I read with the 3/4 supply lines for water and gas??  Is there an issue if 1/2 is used as was indicated?

[bigguy]

Jabba, you're right about the vent pipe. I don't remember the exact price, bit it was an expensive little bugger. And I got the short one because I'm mounting on an outside wall.
Daniel, man I am so envious of your setup. My house needs to be rewired and re-plumbed. But as long as water comes from the taps, and the lights come on, I won't spend the time or the dough to do it. Part of my problem on these DIY projects is that I'm too lazy to do it right, but to finicky to do it wrong. So it just doesn't get done.
I'm picking up a 3/4 T this afternoon. I'll crawl up under the house and be sure it's the right size. I'll drag a tape measure with me and figure out how much pipe I'll need. Look out spiders, here I come.

[bigguy]

John:
I don't suppose that the water line would be a deal breaker. You just wouldn't be moving as much water as the heater could supply. But on the gas line, I've been warned by several people that it will not operate in a gas starved condition. I wasn't going to chance it. I decided to put the old unit back online until I can get an adequate gas supply line. I was going to try again this weekend, but between a Sunday morning project at work, rain in the forecast, and the Super Bowl, it might have to wait another week.

[Jabba]

I ain't replacing mine till I need to... but I have put in a few for other people, and the Navien is a REAL nice unit.

You should pay attention to pressure too.  Some of the water heaters want 7" w.c. pressure.  Most residential services are 6" at BEST.  Mine is like that... it's a commercial unit (I got it from a Rep as a commercial unit when I was adding the 2nd story on my house.  I paid a whopping $455 for the heater, vent and controls!)

But it wants 7" of gas pressure.  I only have 6" (yeah yeah yeah ) and it won't go into high fire.  That's OK with me.  I can run 2 of ANYTHING in my house except for the roman faucet.  And since it won't run HARD, it'll last longer.

Gas line is sized by the demand, length of pipe, and the length of the run.  There is REALLY more to it than JUST pipe size.

Jabba

Jabba

[PAVALKER]

Ok... what about pricing.... Jabba, that price sounds GREAT !   

I am working on my GF's house, have it gutted for the most part, to studs in the basement and laundry/furnace room.  Other areas gutted as well, but not to stud all the way.  Tore down a wall, upped a beam and built another wall.  Ran new elec wires, to attic, laundry and the kitchen and had service upgraded to 200amp, with new breaker box with room for more circuits.

Newer/smaller furnace installed, and I had the hot water tank vent reduced to just 4in oval b vent, which fits within the wide wall and adapted to the large vent pipe up top, which gave her a closet in the bathroom upstairs now. HW Tank is not in service (disconnected and sitting in the corner for now) and quite aged (being replaced regardless).  Considered a power ventilated HW tank, but cost and the fact that if power is lost so is hot water (if for a long duration).  Plus if/when it needs replaced, it is costly.... so the smaller B Vent and a standard tank was our thought.  She had initially given thought to the tankless, but she has not heard much good about it (initial cost/repairs/maintenance/other issues with the pipe size etc).  Where is the place to get one for that price Jabba?

Could a tankless HW heater use the smaller Oval B Vent up to the roof or does it require special or  PVC venting. It would be going in the same spot next to the furnace anyhow.... where it was.  What are the elec power requirements for the tankless HW heater?  If power was lost I assume it would not ignite and heat water?  Is that correct?

[bigguy]

I'm buying a cheap ($50) battery backup for mine.

Jabba, are you saying that size doesn't matter? 
I don't know the specs on my gas line. I'm just assuming that the 3/4 line will give it enough pressure. Guess I'll find out for sure in a couple of weeks. (Probably skip this weekend because of rain, work, and super bowl) If it turns out to be inadequate, I'll be a calling the gas company. I'm too far into this to back out now.

[Daniel Meyer]

Price: Mine was $750 for the heater. Another $90 for the isolator valves, I paid $150 for the cabinet (mine mounts in an external wall), but the beauty of that is no stack/vent required, nothing through the roof etc.

I also put in the control panel. Not needed/required, but I liked the geek factor. Can shut off, see flow rate, adjust temp etc if you want. It as additional $80, but like I said, not required.

Also, it does NOT have to be in a cabinet...can surface mount outside, but cabinet looks better and protects better in freezing weather. (it has anti-freeze automatic function).

3/4 gas line/pressure/etc: Mine can put out more than 140,000 btu if needed...it adjusts itself to whatever it needs based on incoming water temp and flow rate. Not often it does so, but that's why it needs the big gas line...two showers during the winter with very cold water input/etc. Mine is also rated to heat with (floor loops/etc) if I want to do so.

Electric: Requires 120v plug, low draw. Won't run without electric.

Savings: It's pretty easy for us to tell in our Old Victorian due to our migration habits etc. We can confidently say 50%.

Maintenance/life: We installed sediment filters, so we change them once a year. If it lasts 10 years I'll be happy, and I think it will go more. Price point is not that far off a tanked model nowadays, especially when I factored in the stack...we figure the savings will pay the difference in price in two years.

We also like the space savings in the house, no closet and venting needed.

What we LOVE...is the endless hot water. It's an Old Victorian...one of the bathtubs is 6 feet long! Dishes, showers, house full of people...nothing matters. There is always hot water.

Good prices here and the different configurations here (indoor/outdoor/stack/wall vent/etc)...I've used this company. Great service.
http://www.pexsupply.com/pex/control/category/~category_id=684/~refine=200684+10096

[bigguy]

If I get to choose between being good and lucky, I'll take lucky.

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[Jabba]

Ok... what about pricing.... Jabba, that price sounds GREAT !   

I am working on my GF's house, have it gutted for the most part, to studs in the basement and laundry/furnace room.  Other areas gutted as well, but not to stud all the way.  Tore down a wall, upped a beam and built another wall.  Ran new elec wires, to attic, laundry and the kitchen and had service upgraded to 200amp, with new breaker box with room for more circuits.

Newer/smaller furnace installed, and I had the hot water tank vent reduced to just 4in oval b vent, which fits within the wide wall and adapted to the large vent pipe up top, which gave her a closet in the bathroom upstairs now. HW Tank is not in service (disconnected and sitting in the corner for now) and quite aged (being replaced regardless).  Considered a power ventilated HW tank, but cost and the fact that if power is lost so is hot water (if for a long duration).  Plus if/when it needs replaced, it is costly.... so the smaller B Vent and a standard tank was our thought.  She had initially given thought to the tankless, but she has not heard much good about it (initial cost/repairs/maintenance/other issues with the pipe size etc).  Where is the place to get one for that price Jabba?

Could a tankless HW heater use the smaller Oval B Vent up to the roof or does it require special or  PVC venting. It would be going in the same spot next to the furnace anyhow.... where it was.  What are the elec power requirements for the tankless HW heater?  If power was lost I assume it would not ignite and heat water?  Is that correct?

You won't find one for THAT price.  I got mine before they got popular, and they gave it to me at cost since I am a specifier.  If I like it, we specify more... which I do, and we do.

The Navien's are about $1400 out the door for me. 

You can NOT vent them thru B-Vent.  When you up the efficiency, you cool the flue gasses so far, the moisture in the flue condenses.  This makes for high efficiency, but requires special venting, that can handle the wet, and mild corrosive nature of the condensate.   It also required a drain at the bottom.  The Naviens vent thru either 2" or 3" PVC pipe, depending on the size and the length of the run.  It it was mine... I'd go sidewall, even if I had to dig an area well to get out of the basement.

They are NOT cheap, but GOOD is NEVER cheap.

I have pretty good water (Softened at the water plant before they deliver it) but (knock on wood) I have hod ZERO issues with it thus far.  I am pretty good about the yearly maintenance though too.

Everyone that I know that has them... LOVES them, and would NOT go back to a tank unless FORCED.

Jabba

[BonS]

I've long been on the sideline with tankless heaters due to the flow requirements to get them to turn on.  Is the minimum flow required to fire up the heater specified with each manufacturer? Since this thread popped up I found this device that addresses this issue. http://www.chilipepperapp.com/

[Daniel Meyer]

Ours fires at any flow that you'd actually want to use hot water at...it has not been an issue for us.

[Hook#3287]

I put a Takagi tankless in around 1997.  I've got super hard water and even with a water softner, my first tank water heater rusted out in 7 years.   Since I put the Takagi in, I have never even looked at it, it just works.

[bigguy]

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[JimC]

I just bought a Rannai tankless also. I have recently gutted an old house down to the studs and I am starting out from scratch with everything, heating, plumbing, electric, insulation, siding, roof.

The tankless cost is not much more than a newer gas water heater with a power vent. The tankless is about $1100 and the tank type with power vent is about $800. We tore out the old dilapidated chimney so we need the power vent type. I am redoing all the plumbing anyway, so now is the time. My plumber is a good friend of my son's and he swears by them, he has installed a dozen or more of them, and so far all his customers are happy with them.

I will not know for a few months how I will like it, but in theory it beats heating a tank 24-7.

Jim