let's spend a bounch of money we have to borrow on crap won't need or use

[musclehead]

'light rail' 'high speed rail' I thought these projects we're pronounced D.O.A. at least a year ago. not so there is a 9 mile extension in Charlotte NC that they want burn money on.  beyond ridiculously expensive the projected cost are about $109,000,000 per mile. a cool billion, just to build it!
I was catching local talk this morning out of Charlotte and it was like listening to the same host I heard last year in Boise ID where they wanted 60 million to get matching funds from the gov to the tune of 60 mil more. they were well on their way to telling Obama thanks, but no thanks.
we turned them down flat in Florida too. Cali is going full speed ahead with their project, but there's a lot of people out there not thinking it through.

rail doesn't work for most folks because we're too busy example; Monday take the mass transit? no need the car gotta pick up the dry cleaning at lunch and Suzie's birthday cake after work. people need their cars, why is that soooo hard to understand?
besides the fact we DON'T HAVE THE MONEY, there won't be enough participation to make it economically viable. so guess what happens then? taxes go up.

the folks in office that like to spend your money, once they get ahold of an idea they never let go!

[The Anvil]

rail doesn't work for most folks because we're too busy example; Monday take the mass transit? no need the car gotta pick up the dry cleaning at lunch and Suzie's birthday cake after work. people need their cars, why is that soooo hard to understand?

That's not really true. You see, having rail available does not mean that you have to give up your car. You can accomplish all of the things you talk about with a comprehensive rail system. Most New Yorkers do not own cars. OMG? How do they get through life??? 

Your "can't do" attitude is exactly why we're still stuck with the crap-ass infrastructure that we have. Build rail stations and support business will form around them. If the MBCR (Massachusetts Bay Commuter Rail) were to come up to Derry then I could realistically go work in Boston. But I'd still have my car.

[musclehead]

rail doesn't work for most folks because we're too busy example; Monday take the mass transit? no need the car gotta pick up the dry cleaning at lunch and Suzie's birthday cake after work. people need their cars, why is that soooo hard to understand?

That's not really true. You see, having rail available does not mean that you have to give up your car. You can accomplish all of the things you talk about with a comprehensive rail system. Most New Yorkers do not own cars. OMG? How do they get through life??? 

Your "can't do" attitude is exactly why we're still stuck with the crap-ass infrastructure that we have. Build rail stations and support business will form around them. If the MBCR (Massachusetts Bay Commuter Rail) were to come up to Derry then I could realistically go work in Boston. But I'd still have my car.

there is a high density population in the northeast that makes that area a viable option for rail. won't work in most parts of the country.
and why does it have to be rail? why not hybrid/electric buses?  this is a boondoggle it will continue to wash this country and states and towns in red ink, in Boise the tens of millions were just for construction (like $5,000+ per lineal foot). operation cost were going to add a couple of bucks of property taxes per square foot if you lived within 3 blocks of the rail.

this one in Charlotte is going in excess of $20,000 per foot. tell me how that kind of expense is justified? I don't see it, the poor need a cheap way to get to work? I still think buses are a cheaper option.

[x]

If this kind of attitude had been prevalent during the Eisenhower days, the interstate highway system would never have been built.  Maintaining and updating US infrastructure is important to US growth and prosperity in many ways.

[BigAl]

Europe think Europe.

High speed rail is High Speed Debt and it don't pay off.

Obama loves Europe, and wants you carrying European Man Bags.

Europe is failed and going down the tubes.

We don't it,,don't need it, let me repeat don't need it.

[Hog Killer DS0048]

They want to do the same here in Tucson. The city has wasted millions on trying to rebuild downtown only to find out that only some yuppie college folks are the only ones who bothers to venture down there. Parking is horrible and has been a complete failure of a project. Now there want to build a rail system costing something like $86 million a mile to build and that's just a projection and we all know how the final figures come in. It's like our city bus service. You follow all these buses going down the street and there's hardly any people on them. The city complains they're losing money and always allow more money to support another losing project. Tucson being a liberal college town, I suppose these things are to be expected.

Sorry for the rant. The original post just hit a nerve.

[GreenLantern57]

Lots of people use the light rail in Charlotte. More would use it if the RIGHT expansion would be built.
Bring it closer to me and I would gladly walk the few blocks to my office. If my company moved downtown, I would definately use it. Parking downtown is 5 bucks up to 20. I would gladly pay the 3.50 or more daily if it saves me money in the long run. Why not use the light rail to park free and ride the rail to the football stadium?  I would. Traffic downtown sucks.

[Oss]

in nyc the extension of the subway lines opened up the boroughs like the bronx to literally millions of people and eased real overcrowding in the lower east side and elsewhere

If you have never seen the grand concourse imagine the Champs-Élysées  in paris, which was the model for it,  imagine 4 miles over 80 blocks of a really wide avenue with the train buried below ground on either side of the avenue every building is a 6 floor apartment house with blocks behind also with apartment houses

More people live along the train lines (there is a line 3 blocks west called #4 which is elevated from  Woodlawn Cemetery to Yankee Stadium then goes downtown and to Brooklyn) than in most cities in the US  Easily close to a million folks living in apt buildings within a dozen blocks of a train
between the Bronx and Brooklyn maybe even double that

But where the distances are wider rail really isnt worth it   NYCentral and many other lines like the Putnam line went belly up as auto use soared Some of the rights of ways are now used for linear parks. Now that is a great and popular well used idea


Even bus lines are being cut back as ridership just aint there for it

The Tappan Zee bridge will probably be rebuilt  I hope they dont put rail on it and save a few BILLION dollars but aint holding my breath. The "old" bridge would make an awesome park and bike path



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Concourse_%28Bronx%29

[musclehead]

in nyc the extension of the subway lines opened up the boroughs like the bronx to literally millions of people and eased real overcrowding in the lower east side and elsewhere

If you have never seen the grand concourse imagine 70 blocks of a wide avenue with the train buried below ground on either side of the avenue every building is a 6 floor apartment house with blocks behind also with apartment houses

More people live along the train lines (there is a line called #4 which is elevated from  Woodlawn Cemetery to Yankee Stadium then goes downtown and to Brooklyn) than in most cities in the US  Easily close to a million folks living in apt buildings within a dozen blocks of a train

But where the distances are wider rail really isnt worth it   NYCentral and many other lines like the Putnam line went belly up as auto use soared Some of the rights of ways are now used for linear parks. Now that is a great and popular well used idea


Even bus lines are being cut back as ridership just aint there for it

The Tappan Zee bridge will probably be rebuilt  I hope they dont put rail on it and save a few BILLION dollars but aint holding my breath. The "old" bridge would make an awesome park and bike path

I thought I heard they were seriously considering doing something with rail on the Tappan Zee? I always listen to local radio where ever I drive 

[Oss]

It is on the table but the money isnt there nor is there demand for it

say you live in rockland county you have to drive to park then take a train to nowhere then how do you get to your destination?  Its not like you will be going somewhere that you can walk to a destination

A better idea would have been to reactivate the west shore line but that line went bankrupt and the only thing moving is freight

If you have been on my tour from the overlook north of west point you can look down at the freight line from the cliffs very nice

IMHO the bridge will not have rail, maybe not even a bus lane  

Now a rail tunnel from NJ to NY should be built, that would really save as I dont know any truck driver who looks forward to crossing the Hudson anywhere near NYC

[musclehead]

It is on the table but the money isnt there nor is there demand for it

say you live in rockland county you have to drive to park then take a train to nowhere then how do you get to your destination?  Its not like you will be going somewhere that you can walk to a destination

A better idea would have been to reactivate the west shore line but that line went bankrupt and the only thing moving is freight

If you have been on my tour from the overlook north of west point you can look down at the freight line from the cliffs very nice

IMHO the bridge will not have rail, maybe not even a bus lane  

Now a rail tunnel from NJ to NY should be built, that would really save as I dont know any truck driver who looks forward to crossing the Hudson anywhere near NYC

I've been on the G.W. bridge twice, can't say I enjoyed either time 

[highcountry]

We have a light rail system in the Denver area.  Probably not a bad idea except it is expensive.  I believe it would cost me $12 round trip to downtown and it goes up every year.  The parking is currently free but they are discussing charging for that also.  I live in an outlying town which used to have an express bus to downtown which was shut down when the rail extension was complete.  Now I can drive 15 miles to ride the rail 15 miles.  They also had a rail system in Dallas and it was the same deal, the drive to the rail was almost as far as the drive to downtown.  So it works for some and not for others, but everyone pays for it.  You decide.

[Trynt]

If this kind of attitude had been prevalent during the Eisenhower days, the interstate highway system would never have been built.  Maintaining and updating US infrastructure is important to US growth and prosperity in many ways.

The 46876 miles of "Interstate Highway System" cost an estimated $425 billion (in $2006 dollars).  That comes to $9,066,473 per mile. This high speed rail project appears to cost 12 times as much per mile. You are correct in that the good people who built the "Interstate" would probably have had the good sense not to build it at 12 times the cost.

[FLAVALK]

They're doing the same thing here in Orlando. $5 will get you $500 it will be a bust in 5-years.

[Robert]

Tri rail in Florida has been around for awhile and never has payed its own way

Even with a funding source, Tri-Rail will still be heavily subsidized by taxpayers. Tuesday at a Palm Beach County Commission workshop on transportation, County Engineer George Webb told commissioners the average cost per trip on Tri-Rail is $12. Fares recover only $2.25 cents, or between 18 and 19 percent.

Webb said the 80 percent subsidy level for Tri-Rail is line with most mass transit systems around the country, including the Palm Beach County bus system, Palm Tran.

[Moonshot_1]

Passenger Rail systems in high density population areas works pretty well.
I know when we go to Chicago, we'll use the Metra and the El whenever possible. It's just really convenient.

But cross country use seems like a losing proposition having to compete with the interstate system, state and county roads, and air transportation. I'd never consider taking a train to Chicago. There are just too many better options.

[Jess from VA]

Here's a thought. 

If the fools cannot help themselves from spending public money, why don't they just give it back to us?

[G-Man]

They're talikng about spending on High Speed rail, which is much different than what we have in our cities right now that have rails.  The "low" speed rails in our cities can go underground, make relatively sharp turns, and can stop every 1/8 mile or so for the next stop.  With high speed rail, you need lots of room for turning and large distances between stops so the train can get up to speed and then slow down again.  Would be good for interstate commuting or traveling in the middle of the country.  The closest thing NY has to high speed rail is that Disney-like monorail to and from JFK airport, and it's not high speed and not very long.

[G-Man]

So it works for some and not for others, but everyone pays for it.  You decide.

THIS is the problem that I find most frustrating as I get older and have more and more responsibilities.  So much of my money goes to pay for things I never use and they also increase prices on things I do use to subsidize what I don't use.  I drive over a bridge ($13.00 round trip) and part of it is used to keep the fares on the subway and busses low.  I hail a cab because I don't want to go down into the crowded, pee smelling subway, and part of my fare goes to the subway and buses.  I feel that if the service can't be supported by the people that use it, either raise the cost to the users or fold.  This isn't a rich / poor thing.  Not all the folks on the subway are poor.  There are thousands of well off folks on the subway everyday traveling from the upper west and east side to midtown and downtown and from nice areas in the boroughs.

[x]

They're talikng about spending on High Speed rail, which is much different than what we have in our cities right now that have rails.  The "low" speed rails in our cities can go underground, make relatively sharp turns, and can stop every 1/8 mile or so for the next stop.  With high speed rail, you need lots of room for turning and large distances between stops so the train can get up to speed and then slow down again.  Would be good for interstate commuting or traveling in the middle of the country.  The closest thing NY has to high speed rail is that Disney-like monorail to and from JFK airport, and it's not high speed and not very long.

Spot on, Mr. G-Man.  High speed rail would be great to connect Houston, Dallas/Ft Worth, Austin, and San Antonio.  While expensive to build, in the end, much cheaper to operate than airplanes.  European cities are already connected by ICE (Inter City Express).  These trains haul ass, and are very comfortable.  Why sit in a 32" pitch airline seat when for less money, you get business class accommodations.
 
The airlines are fighting high speed rail... for obvious reasons.  Rail, when installed is cheaper and greener, with a better travelling experience, and by the time you get through with airport security, nearly identical travel times for distances like Houston/Dallas.

PS:  Just in case you're wondering... where can you take a hi-jacked train... not cross country fer sure.

[art]

Europe think Europe.

High speed rail is High Speed Debt and it don't pay off.

Obama loves Europe, and wants you carrying European Man Bags.

Europe is failed and going down the tubes.

We don't it,,don't need it, let me repeat don't need it.

Lets send OBUMA to Europe.

[art]

High speed rail to go across the country would be great.I airlines need some competition an cross country rail travel is real nice .I did the LA.to Buffalo trip once an loved it.Besides air travel uses too much fuel an causes too much polution .Trains use less fuel than any other form of transportation.If we don't spend the money here what are going to do with it ? Oh I know ,send it overseas they can use it. foreign aid.

[Novavalker]

"Infeasible and Not Cost Effective"
According to the NY Times : "At best, high-speed rail makes sense for very specific regional, not national, corridors in the U.S."
http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2010/10/13/will-we-ever-have-high-speed-trains/a-national-high-speed-network-in-the-us-is-infeasible-and-not-cost-effective

Oh and high speed train would be a juicy target for a terrorist. 

[musclehead]

If this kind of attitude had been prevalent during the Eisenhower days, the interstate highway system would never have been built.  Maintaining and updating US infrastructure is important to US growth and prosperity in many ways.

I think your missing the main thrust of this post, in the Eisenhower days we weren't borrowing .43 cents of every dollar spent from China. we need to tighten belts and cut corners not spend every dime.

[musclehead]

high speed rail is a misnomer, many projects are only going to go 55MPH or so. one project is only going to average 37 MPH.

you start talking high speed rail and the average person thinks 'oh cool bullet trains, like europe or japan'.