Still concerned about running hotter.

[John Schmidt]

I've raised this question recently and received some good answers and opinions. Basically, the bike is running hotter(have a temp gauge) now that I've installed radiator pods and the I/S baffle in back of the fan. My question is....has anyone installed a lower temp thermostat in place of the OEM unit, and if so, what was your results? Since these bikes aren't computer controlled, I can't see where a lower 'stat would harm its operation....kinda like our older cars prior to all the electronic controls. I live in Florida so the need for a warm engine in winter isn't really an issue, although it will get down to the 20's and 30's at times. When it does, I chose not to ride anyway and the bike is garaged so again...it's not an issue. What is an issue is the high temperatures we experience from around May 1st through October, often even later in the year.

Prior to adding the pods and baffling, the bike ran in the 175-185 degree range, any speed and any outside temp. Now, it's running 195-205 and in traffic the fan is off and on constantly....and we have plenty of traffic here in the land of Mickey The Rat. I don't want to remove the pods & baffling, but I also don't want the bike to continue to operate at these temps. Maybe it won't hurt anything now, but in the long run....who knows.

I plan to go into the cooling system shortly, replace the hoses and 'stat and give the entire system a good flushing....something I do each year(flushing). I'm thinking the I/S baffling is more to blame for the extra heat simply because the air now is more restricted in its movement. As it comes through the radiator and hits the baffle, it makes a 90 deg. turn and is forced to flow out of the sides of the pods, which is farther to travel than with the Std. or Tourer baffle. But, with the Std. baffle in place along with the pods, you get more heat on the legs because the air passes between the baffle and the inside of the pods. Almost seems like a no-win situation, so I'm still searching for answers.

[KCvalk]

i put a lower fan thermostat in my old v65 magna and it did help on the hot days,  it triggered the fan 5 degrees cooler than stock setting, also have heard people rig the fan to a switch to run on demand and bypass the thermostat all together.  Just let it run all thru your hot ride.

depending on the age of the bike you might consider taking the radiator off and taking it a  shop for a pro
cleaning ( really makes a difference) also wetter water helps and a new main thermostat is like $4

if you do those and still have a 200 degree temp its not the cooling system

[jammer]

Check Jeff K's site/generic parts list.  I think he lists more than one temp thermostat.


G

[John Schmidt]

I've seen that from time to time and wondered if it was a member. So now I know. 

Re. Water Wetter, I've been using it for about three years now with good results. Down here I run it year 'round and it does make a difference, it originally dropped my operating temp down to the 175-185 range I mentioned. I plan to go through the system as outlined above, and will install a lower temp 'stat along with some new hoses...they're now 11 years old so can't hurt.

[Tundra]

John, What temperature are you running at? What RPM? I did not see you initial post. How are you measuring the temperature? Radiator or oil? what type of guage, is the guage adjustable?

[sandy]

John: Is anything mounted inside your pods? Some have put the Stebel air horn in there and then others use the mesh screens for looks. These would restrict the airflow through the pods.

[John Schmidt]

Tundra, I have an insert in the upper hose, it's similar to the ones shown on the links listed above and has worked great for the last five years. The temps are higher at any rpm range, but for reference....when running around 2800-3k it's close to 20 deg. higher than before. In the past it wouldn't hit 190-95 unless I was running in the 85 mph range for an extended period. At my usual 70-75 indicated, it would register 175-180+ most of the time. In heavy stop and go traffic, once in a great while it would kick the fan on but only after an extended hold up at a large intersection where it takes 2-3 light changes to get through.

Sandy, just this morning I had thought about that horn mount myself and wondered if that might be adding to the problem. I do have a Steble mounted under the right pod and have noticed in the past when the fan kicked on I get a good blast out the left side, not so on the right, so that may well be a contributing factor. I have the grills installed but don't think that's a factor, judging by the airflow out the left side.

[longrider]

john
lots of good advice from lots of people.  Here is my opinion.  Why new hoses unless the old ones are stiff/brittle.  two things can contribute to your high heat. 

restriction:  different baffle and pods.  I doubt it though as the IS uses them.  dirty rad:  I remove and spray wash (Gently and straight on so as not to bend the fins) the rad every couple of years from the backside.  You wont believe what comes out of there.  You'll need to remove it anyway when you change T-stat

Thermostat:

This is most likely your biggest trouble.  I sold my 98 last year with 125 k on it.  the fins on one side of the rad on my NEW 99 were bent and didnt look good so I switched the old rad to my NEW 99 before I sold the 98.  Works like new with another 20k on it.

good luck

PS  have you installed a new grille in front?  that could do it to.

warren

[Earl in Pensacola]

My '97 bone stock Tourer has 205K and the OEM Radiator,hoses, clams, screen and only one thermostat change (180). I flush the red about every two years, replace the fluid with 5/150.  I do have a motosins (? something like that) temp gauge.  The temp stays at 180 to 185 90% of the time.  However, in heavy traffic it will frequently get up to 212, then the fan comes on and then it will fluctuate between 200 and 212 (the fan always brings it back down) until I can get moving for a mile or so.  Hope this helps you believe in the quality of the Valkyrie cooling system.

[Robert]

Hello John I have the 180 degree thermostat listed in Jeffs sight have had it for over 2 years and really like it. I don't think the factory thermostats really are 190 or that is the temp they start to open and are not fully opened yet, because most of the bikes seem to run in your  range. I use 15% antifreeze a bottle of water wetter and the 180 thermostat and thats where the temp stays unless I am in traffic. then it goes to 209 and the fan comes on and the temp drops considerably. If I am constantly in traffic it takes  awhile for the fan to cycle back on again and it stays on for a minute or just a bit longer. I also like the cooler temps on my legs. I run this set up all year round with no problem and going to the cooler thermostat has no detrimental effect on the bike just the opposite is true. Another thing about antifreeze it will form deposits in your cooling system so the less antifreeze the less deposits, my system looks brand new inside and the hoses last longer not having to deal with all the heat. It kind of pisses you off when you know that there is better material to make hoses and such out of and the manufacturer doesn't do it.

[sugerbear]

i read in the goldwing magazine a few years back about a flush system that backflushes w/pulsing.
the mechanic had a goldwing that would constantly run hot. a reg flush didn't help but the backflush flushed out chuncks of crystalized antifreese.
the antifreeze built up in the block. might check out that path also with a call to a goldwing dealer.

[John Schmidt]

I also belong to GWRRA and the tech articles are the first thing I read. Stu Oltman is a good mechanic, especially on the 1500's. He had a good write-up on that procedure you're talking about but the equipment is rather expensive, doubt the average Honda shop would have it, let alone having heard of it. I've ordered some parts from Service Honda incuding new hoses and thermostat gasket, I'll get a new 'stat locally and will tear into the project when the new stuff comes in. I'll post my results when done.

[98valk]

 Now, it's running 195-205 and in traffic the fan is off and on constantly....

why do u feel that this temp is a problem? The factory technical manual does not consider that a problem.
OEM thermo starts to open at 176-183 and is fully opened at 203. So the factory engineers require a 203 thermo. Why do persons on this board think they know more than the designers by using a 180 thermo, which is only causing excessive engine wear, less performance and lower mpg. IT IS AN ALUMINUM ENGINE AND HEADS which means it disapiates heat must faster than cast iron and the reason for the oem 203 thermo. (this was directed at other board members not just u JS)
oem fan switch on at 208-216 and off at 199-207 for all models
temp idiot light on at 234-244 and off at 226 for all models.
So the factory considers 234 to be overheating.
When was the last time your aftermarket temp gage was calibrated?
From an engineering stand point u do not have a problem based on the specs from the tech manual. However your oem thermo might be sticking and thereby slow to respond to a rise in temp, which is causing the fan to be off and on constantly as u stated.
have u looked into www.evanscooling.com  this is what i use.

[NiteRiderF6]

Hey 98 Valk... I don't think John or anybody else believes that they know more than the engineers who designed this bike that we all ride.... John simply wants to have his operating temperature stay in what has always been his "normal" operating range. I can't blame him for that myself. He has made some changes to his bike and is now concerned that this one issue (operating temperature) is different during normal operations.

John, I think that the problem could be in the pods that you added as well; my Interstate always operates "hot" in heavy traffic or stop and go scenarios, the fan cuts on and off as well until I can get underway and then it cools down rapidly.

I think that may be the idea for the apron behind the radiator on the Interstate models and why the fan may run more on those models than it will on the Tourer or Standards where there is less of a surround and heat can dissipate more rapidly than on the I/S. I don't have a temperature indicator on my bike, but what you describe sounds about normal for my bike and I'm sure others like it. That has been my "normal" for the last five years since I have owned my Valkyire. I wouldn't see any problem in lowering the thermostat rating a little in an attempt to keep your bike's engine temperature operating at what would be more of a normal for you. There is no different spec or part for the Interstate, but I'm sure my normal and your normal are a different number as concerns engine operating temperature.

I am not an engineer either, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express just last week. It's your wife and your stove wood... I say go for it. Good Luck!

[Robert]

I think I will take up the CA challenge, First Evans is nothing more than propylene glycol  regular antifreeze in concentrated form and food grade that you pay more for. It also doesn't dissipate heat as well as water and thats why they are so big on allowing or having a higher temp because yes it may not boil till 375 but it doesn't conduct heat as well as water either. Since its not the best conductor and may not have any vapor it still may have hot spots in the system. We wont say how much problems this causes. As for a cooler thermostat causing excessive wear that is so much bs that I am surprised that you would even say that. Yes I have seen the tests that take a ceramic engine and run it at a temp that would melt metal and get this really good mileage and doesn't wear.  The Valk engine is not efficient the combustion chamber looks like it could have been from a tractor so it doesn't make the best use of the fuel or flame front. As for temp a cooler temp makes me more comfortable and in most cases makes more power partly because of heat transfer to the carbs or intakes. As for excessive wear are you kidding? I would like to see one documented case of a engine failure because it ran to cool. I can show you the effects of to much heat. Like wiring harness failing before their time, vacuum hoses cracking to soon, oil deposits forming on the inside of engines. warped cylinder heads, scuffing pistons in the cylinders, warped blocks and the list goes on. As for the Valk I have seen more running hot problems than to cool. Like I said looks good on paper but maybe not so in the real world. I can also say that I know of quite a few pieces of equipment including tractors that run really cool and keep on running that way even when most cars have long given up the ghost. you will find. Our Valks as with any engine are a compromise even down to the jetting and intake and exhaust If the engineers really did the design the best for us then why rejet? They work for a company that has a goal that shapes their criteria and shapes the product into what the government and manufacturer says it should be and yes when everything comes together then they will make a car that goes 75 miles on a gallon of gas. We are descendent's of apes and y2k there will be a major melt down, YEA RIGHT! Engineers are men that have specialized training and do take real world examples and figure them into their equation and come up with a product. They are not God, and gave me a good machine to start with to make the way I want it.

[John Schmidt]

As for the post preceding yours, I didn't take it as criticism but do take exception to much of what was said. I'm well aware of the temps at which the 'stat opens/closes and the operating temps of the engine itself. I read things many times over before jumping in the water, so to speak. It's well known that all of our vehicles manufactured for normal everyday use are done so with certain parameters in mind. That goes for bikes as well as cars and trucks, and those parameters dictate the limits placed on the engineers when designing takes place. A friend of mine was one of the "higher up" executives in the old American Motors a number of years ago,  and was active in building his own perfomance machines. He used to get the greatest kick out of taking an old Nash Rambler wagon and literally smoke some of the current pony cars of the 70's. He would get a stocker for his own use and was allowed to do whatever he wished with it, so the first thing he did was pull the engine and tranny and start from scratch. Have you ever seen a Rambler with an automatic tranny actually make the tires bark with each shift under full throttle. (the one he had the most fun with was a Lark, but that's another story for another company) The big thing with him was....don't change the displacement, change how it's used. Needless to say, he was an automotive engineer in his own right, but for his own vehicles he wasn't restricted to the factory settings. And....neither are we with the Valkyrie. I'm no engineer, but I've been playing with engines for well over a half century and won more than a few trophies along the way.

As was stated above, if they are so perfect then why do we get extra and better perfomance from some relatively minor changes. As for extra wear with a cooler engine, I don't buy that. Granted, you don't want it operating too low, just be reasonable. If the engine was computer controlled and set up to operate within certain ranges, then I'd agree to a point. But the induction and exhaust system is a free flow operation, and to the best of my knowlege the ignition changes that take place are only tied to the heat sensor back to the ICM....and even that has been tricked into thinking different.

So, when my stuff comes next week from Service Honda(not only cooling system items), I'll be looking locally for a slightly lower operating temp 'stat to install. I'll be more comfy in summer, and wear heavier britches in winter. I figure at my age, the bike will outlast me anyway regardless.

[R J]

John, here is something else you could think about, not saying do it, just saying what worked for me.   This engine is a 350 Chevy, bored out .060 and stroked to about 390 cubic inches w/on the high side of 9.5 - 1 compression..

Eliminate the thermostat all together and just put a restictor in the lower hose.....

My Trike after we stressed it out the last time, and added a little larger aluminum radiator, ran hotter than blazes.   It would run 180 in town in TRAFFIC mostly on the idle, with no engine fan and only a puller electric fan that came on around 195.   Hit the highway and get her up to speed and she would pop 240 to 250 all the time.    To me that was too hot for a Chevy block, or any iron block for that matter.

Did everything I could think of, water wetter, 2nd fan on the engine, make the puller fan a pusher fan and etc.

Was working at the Pontiac Dealer and talking to one of the Techs.  He told me how the new GTO was cooled, and got my head to thinking.  Ordered some Jegs restrictor plates and tried all 4 of them, to no success.

Ended up taking the thermostat out completely and taking a 3/4" drive socket and inserting it in the lower rad hose to restrict the flow.  Did some playing with the opening of the socket (welded on the hole)  to get it to a temp I was happy with..  Would weld the hole up, drill it out some, weld it up again and finally hit a happy medium.

That summer I took the Trike to Key West in the middle of July, in all your heat and hiumidity....  It got up to about 210 a couple of times, but mostly in heavy traffic moving along at about 45 to 50 mph on the long bridge.......

I'm not suggesting you do this, but it is something you could think about........

As we always say, what works for me, might not work for you.

[Robert]

Just as a side note I put in the Factory Pro Jet Kit #2 which is a full kit not just needles like I had before and took the baffle out of the air box. I also have the 180 thermostat and a dyna and now my mileage is around 44 hwy and 36 local with more power. I also replaced the stock petcock years ago(that consistently failed)with a Pingle and will eventually install the belly tank that I have had laying around for 4 months.  I can live with a cooler engine with better mileage and more power and better idle. Its really kind of a shame that the engineers at Honda didn't do these changes for me so I didn't have to spend the extra bucks since they knew it would add to my riding pleasure. 

[John Schmidt]

How are you set up on it, curious minds, et. al? I run in the mid to upper 30's for mpg at highway speed. If I keep it at around 67 indicated I'll get 38-40, depending on the load mostly. Could always use more mpg.

RJ, I've not used that approach in years but know it does work. Used to use it on the strip in place of a thermostat since the engines only ran for a short spell and usually wouldn't come up to temp quick enough to open the thermostat. I'll try a different 'stat first, then go from there...after a good flushing that is.

[Robert]

Its curve 8 the first time I checked my mileage after doing the jet kit I did a double take and had to check again because the mileage had increased from 33/35 mpg.

[98valk]

The below is for cast iron engines, an aluminum engine will run cooler due to its greater ability to disiapate heat.

by Steve Jack
HOTRODSRJ@AOL.COM
Concept One Pulleys
Jackstands at Old Cars Only

A few of you good folks must have spotted other articles that I have done either in print or online about this subject. At the request of a few folks here I am putting this up for what it's worth and expanding some information about this as well. The argument is about running 160 degree thermostats and the good and/or bad results. Now keep in mind that thermostats have absolutely NO effect on your systems ability to cool, simply a regulator of the range it operates in. So, if you think a 160 will cure an engine running at 220 with a 180 thermostat...forgetaboutit! This is not about cooling capacity at all.

The graph to follow illustrates the importance of how critical optimum coolant temperature is to the longevity and performance your engine. Cooler water makes horsepower and warmer water minimizes engine cylinder and bearing wear...or so it's thought, but only to their own limits and ranges. There is a range where both optimum performance as well as minimal wear share similar characteristics. That number lies in the 175-180 degree range as shown by the overlap in the chart which correspondingly requires a 180 degree thermostat. FWIW, higher operating temperatures of today's engines are to fight combustion by-products and pollution. Also, engine oils are designed to work over a specific temperature range with optimum performance starting at temperatures that require the coolant to be the very same 175ish range. And don't forget the moisture issue. Have you ever seen water vapor coming from your tailpipes? Sure..and the very same thing happens INSIDE your engine. YOur engine forms moisture inside when it cools and condensates on the walls of the inside. This moisture the is washed down into the oil when started and then awaits vaporization by internal temperatures rising enough to bring the moisture to the appropriate corrected vapor point (boiling). If enough moisture is left behind it combines with combustion byproducts to form acids that become dissolved in the oil itself. The oil becomes more acidic as the age of the oil progresses and picks on certain parts eventually. Also moisture will corrode other surfaces. So, it's important to get these engines to a satisfying operating temperature as soon as possible. Usually oil pooling temps are about 30 to 40 degrees higher than the coolant temps. This is a generalised statement and can vary with load and engine design but you can see why you want your oil over 212 degrees to boil out the moiture immediately! A 160 thermostat usually does NOT accomplish this temperature.

(too see wear chart)
 http://www.corvetteactioncenter.com/forums/c4-technical-performance/49862-thermostat-poll-160-vs-180-a-2.html   

Years of research show use of 160 degree thermostats is way too low to be considered for performance or engine longevity. As the chart above illustrates, engine wear increased by DOUBLE at 160, than at 185 degrees. The 160's were invented for and commonly used in older, open loop cooling systems where only 6 pound radiator caps were used, and low 212 degree boiling points were the limit. We know better now.

Many early hot rodders found the 160's to be a smiggin better performing than the 190's, however the in between 180 appears to satisfy both ends of the spectrum. The correct water temperature and thus resulting metal operating temperatures required for the cylinders to achieve a minimum specific temperature in order to allow a fully mixed Air/Fuel charge to combust efficiently is a minimum of 180 degrees coincidentally. If you use 160s be aware that this can have a degrading effect over a time on your engine. I know alot of rodders still using them however to whatever ends they want...and that's okay. Heck, I know guys that run NO thermostat and most of you know that's another book to be covered. I just report what I learn...and you decide what's best for you. I hope this satisfies you information junkies out there. Steve Jack
HOTRODSRJ@AOL.COM
Concept One Pulleys
Jackstands at Old Cars Only

[John Schmidt]

If you go back and read my original comments, you'll see my bike was operating in that 175-185 range. All I want to do is get back to that range or close to it.