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Author Topic: What metal are the triple trees made of.......  (Read 1714 times)
BF
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Fort Walton Beach, Florida I'm a simple man, I like pretty, dark haired woman and breakfast food.


« on: February 23, 2012, 01:00:47 PM »

I hate to ask a stupid question, but I'm wiring up my stero in my fairing and the instructions say to wire to a frame ground.  The black wire supplied already has a terminal on it and it's just long enough to screw it off to the bolt where the speedo was mounted to the upper triple tree.  Would that point on the trees make an acceptable ground?

Sure would save my some work if I could attach it there instead of running a longer wire elsewhere. 
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I can't help about the shape I'm in
I can't sing, I ain't pretty and my legs are thin
But don't ask me what I think of you
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Ricky-D
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South Carolina midlands


« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2012, 01:11:56 PM »

It's never recommended to secure ground through bearings.

You should install an electrical ground to the frame proper from the whole front fork assembly.

You pick how to do this.

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MarkT
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VRCC #437 "Form follows Function"

Colorado Front Range - elevation 2.005 km


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« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2012, 02:33:10 PM »

Another reason to find a steel ground - the TT is aluminum.  Never ground to aluminum, it typically is oxidized on the surface which has high resistance.  You will also cause galvanic corrosion.  Note, they put the main battery ground on the back of the aluminum block.  It will fail eventually, mine did on a road trip. Once I found it, I moved the ground to the frame.  Never a problem since.
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The Anvil
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Derry, NH


« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2012, 02:54:18 PM »

You can ground just fine to aluminum. The ring terminals that you buy at Radio Shack (along with butt-splices) as well as the ones pre-installed on aftermarket wiring are usually aluminum, not copper. So grounding to aluminum is actually BETTER than grounding to steel. Most aircraft made in the last 70 years are bonded directly to aluminum structure (you don't usually find a lot of steel in airplanes). Furthermore, to ground through steel you must remove paint (best avoided, you know, because of rust).

However grounding through bearings should also be avoided because contact to the frame can be interfered with by grease. It can be done but you have have intermittent issues.
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Boxer rebellion, the Holy Child. They all pay their rent.
But none together can testify to the rhythm of a road well bent.
Saddles and zip codes, passports and gates, the Jones' keep.
In August the water is trickling, in April it's furious deep.

1997 Valk Standard, Red and White.
BF
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Fort Walton Beach, Florida I'm a simple man, I like pretty, dark haired woman and breakfast food.


« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2012, 02:58:06 PM »

I kinda thought that it wouldn't be the best option with the bearings grease between the power and the ground.  Ricky-D changed my mind for me.   cooldude
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I can't sing, I ain't pretty and my legs are thin
But don't ask me what I think of you
I might not give the answer that you want me to
 

MarkT
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VRCC #437 "Form follows Function"

Colorado Front Range - elevation 2.005 km


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« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2012, 03:26:42 PM »

Google "grounding to aluminum"  and read what you find. You just got bad info from McCarthy.  But then he's all about contradicting.  Next he'll deny the reports of all of us who have experienced the failed engine block ground on our Valks, since grounding to aluminum "is better".  Some expert.

If you google "galvanic corrosion", you'll find on wikipedia this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_corrosion

Excerpts from this article that pertain to galvanic corrosion and this issue: NOTE - in this context, moisture acts as the electrolyte.

"Galvanic corrosion is an electrochemical process in which one metal corrodes preferentially to another when both metals are in electrical contact and immersed in an electrolyte. The same galvanic reaction is exploited in primary batteries to generate a voltage.

Dissimilar metals and alloys have different electrode potentials and when two or more come into contact in an electrolyte a galvanic couple is set up, one metal acting as anode and the other as cathode. The potential difference between the dissimilar metals is the driving force for the accelerated attack on the anode member of the galvanic couple. The anode metal dissolves into the electrolite, and deposition is formed on the cathodic metal.

The electrolyte provides a means for ion migration whereby metallic ions can move from the anode to the cathode. This leads to the anodic metal corroding more quickly than it otherwise would; the corrosion of the cathodic metal is retarded even to the point of stopping. The presence of an electrolyte and a electronic conducting path between the metals is essential for galvanic corrosion to occur.

Metals (and their alloys) can be arranged in a galvanic series representing the potential they develop in a given electrolyte against a standard reference electrode. The relative position of two metals on such a series gives a good indication of which metal is more likely to corrode more quickly.

There are several ways of reducing and preventing this form of corrosion.

    * One way is to electrically insulate the two metals from each other. Unless they are in electrical contact, there can be no galvanic couple set up. This can be done using plastic or another insulator to separate steel water pipes from copper-based fittings or by using a coat of grease to separate aluminium and steel parts.

It is also possible to choose metals that have similar potentials. The more closely matched the individual potentials, the lesser the potential difference and hence the lesser the galvanic current. Using the same metal for all construction is the most precise way of matching potentials.

The compatibility of two different metals may be predicted by consideration of their "Anodic Index". This parameter is a measure of the electrochemical voltage that will be developped between the metal and gold. To find the relative voltage of a pair of metals it is only required to substract their Anodic Indexes.[8]

For normal environments, such as storage in warehouses or non-temperature and humidity controlled environments, there should not be more than 0.25 V difference in the "Anodic Index". For controlled environments, in which temperature and humidity are controlled, 0.50 V can be tolerated. For harsh environments, such as outdoors, high humidity, and salt environments, there should be not more than 0.15 V difference in the "Anodic Index". For example; gold - silver would have a difference of 0.15V being acceptable [9][page needed]

Often when design requires that dissimilar metals come in contact, the galvanic compatibility is managed by finishes and plating. The finishing and plating selected facilitates the dissimilar materials being in contact and protect the base materials from corrosion.

Anodic index[9][page needed] Metal    Index (V)
Most Cathodic    
Gold, solid and plated, Gold-platinum alloy    -0.00
Rhodium plated on silver-plated copper    -0.05
Silver, solid or plated; monel metal. High nickel-copper alloys    -0.15
Nickel, solid or plated, titanium an s alloys, Monel    -0.30
Copper, solid or plated; low brasses or bronzes; silver solder; German silvery high copper-nickel alloys; nickel-chromium alloys    -0.35
Brass and bronzes    -0.40
High brasses and bronzes    -0.45
18% chromium type corrosion-resistant steels    -0.50
Chromium plated; tin plated; 12% chromium type corrosion-resistant steels    -0.60
Tin-plate; tin-lead solder    -0.65
Lead, solid or plated; high lead alloys    -0.70
2000 series wrought aluminum    -0.75
Iron, wrought, gray or malleable, plain carbon and low alloy steels    -0.85
Aluminum, wrought alloys other than 2000 series aluminum, cast alloys of the silicon type    -0.90
Aluminum, cast alloys other than silicon type, cadmium, plated and chromate    -0.95
Hot-dip-zinc plate; galvanized steel    -1.20
Zinc, wrought; zinc-base die-casting alloys; zinc plated    -1.25
Magnesium & magnesium-base alloys, cast or wrought    -1.75
Beryllium    -1.85
Most Anodic
"   


CONCLUSIONS
The anodic index of copper (the wire) is -0.35v.  The anodic index of stainless steel is -0.50v - A difference of 0.15, OK per the above discussion.  Note the anodic index of cast aluminum is -0.95v - a difference of 0.60v when in contact with the copper wire - HIGH GALVANIC CORROSION IS PREDICTED.

As I said - you can reduce or prevent it by coating the connection - and I use electrically conductive compounds that are made for connecting to aluminum.

I'll make a note, when flying into NH, not to let Jamie McCarthy touch my airplane.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 04:19:30 PM by MarkT » Logged


Vietnam-474 TFW Takhli 9-12/72 Linebckr II;307 SBW U-Tapao 05/73-4
The Anvil
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Derry, NH


« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2012, 03:43:22 PM »

Google "grounding to aluminum"  and read what you find. You just got bad info from McCarthy.  But then he's all about contradicting.

Yes, by all means google it.

If you do it right it's fine. Every commercial jetliner flying is bonded primarily through aluminum structure (with the possible exception being the 787). They're struck by lightning an average of once a year so you'd better stop flying in them.

But what would I know? I only spent 15 years in the commercial/industrial electrical field doing everything from systems design and I make modifications (including electrical system upgrades) to 40 million dollar airplanes. But you just got false information from me.  2funny
« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 03:49:10 PM by The Anvil » Logged

Boxer rebellion, the Holy Child. They all pay their rent.
But none together can testify to the rhythm of a road well bent.
Saddles and zip codes, passports and gates, the Jones' keep.
In August the water is trickling, in April it's furious deep.

1997 Valk Standard, Red and White.
art
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*****
Posts: 2737


Grants Pass,Or

Grants Pass,Or


« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2012, 04:05:45 PM »

I would not worry about grounding thru the bearings.With 12 volts it should not be a problem .Welding something thru the bearings is a major no no ,that would destroy a bearing.
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The Anvil
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Derry, NH


« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2012, 04:07:45 PM »

Google "grounding to aluminum"  and read what you find. You just got bad info from McCarthy.  But then he's all about contradicting.

If you google "galvanic corrosion, you'll find on wikipedia this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_corrosion

Excerpts from this article that pertain to galvanic corrosion and this issue: NOTE - in this context, moisture acts as the electrolyte.

Galvanic corrosion is an electrochemical process in which one metal corrodes preferentially to another when both metals are in electrical contact and immersed in an electrolyte. The same galvanic reaction is exploited in primary batteries to generate a voltage.

Dissimilar metals and alloys have different electrode potentials and when two or more come into contact in an electrolyte a galvanic couple is set up, one metal acting as anode and the other as cathode. The potential difference between the dissimilar metals is the driving force for the accelerated attack on the anode member of the galvanic couple. The anode metal dissolves into the electrolite, and deposition is formed on the cathodic metal.

The electrolyte provides a means for ion migration whereby metallic ions can move from the anode to the cathode. This leads to the anodic metal corroding more quickly than it otherwise would; the corrosion of the cathodic metal is retarded even to the point of stopping. The presence of an electrolyte and a electronic conducting path between the metals is essential for galvanic corrosion to occur.

Metals (and their alloys) can be arranged in a galvanic series representing the potential they develop in a given electrolyte against a standard reference electrode. The relative position of two metals on such a series gives a good indication of which metal is more likely to corrode more quickly.

There are several ways of reducing and preventing this form of corrosion.

    * One way is to electrically insulate the two metals from each other. Unless they are in electrical contact, there can be no galvanic couple set up. This can be done using plastic or another insulator to separate steel water pipes from copper-based fittings or by using a coat of grease to separate aluminium and steel parts.

It is also possible to choose metals that have similar potentials. The more closely matched the individual potentials, the lesser the potential difference and hence the lesser the galvanic current. Using the same metal for all construction is the most precise way of matching potentials.

The compatibility of two different metals may be predicted by consideration of their "Anodic Index". This parameter is a measure of the electrochemical voltage that will be developped between the metal and gold. To find the relative voltage of a pair of metals it is only required to substract their Anodic Indexes.[8]

For normal environments, such as storage in warehouses or non-temperature and humidity controlled environments, there should not be more than 0.25 V difference in the "Anodic Index". For controlled environments, in which temperature and humidity are controlled, 0.50 V can be tolerated. For harsh environments, such as outdoors, high humidity, and salt environments, there should be not more than 0.15 V difference in the "Anodic Index". For example; gold - silver would have a difference of 0.15V being acceptable [9][page needed]

Often when design requires that dissimilar metals come in contact, the galvanic compatibility is managed by finishes and plating. The finishing and plating selected facilitates the dissimilar materials being in contact and protect the base materials from corrosion.

Anodic index[9][page needed] Metal    Index (V)
Most Cathodic    
Gold, solid and plated, Gold-platinum alloy    -0.00
Rhodium plated on silver-plated copper    -0.05
Silver, solid or plated; monel metal. High nickel-copper alloys    -0.15
Nickel, solid or plated, titanium an s alloys, Monel    -0.30
Copper, solid or plated; low brasses or bronzes; silver solder; German silvery high copper-nickel alloys; nickel-chromium alloys    -0.35
Brass and bronzes    -0.40
High brasses and bronzes    -0.45
18% chromium type corrosion-resistant steels    -0.50
Chromium plated; tin plated; 12% chromium type corrosion-resistant steels    -0.60
Tin-plate; tin-lead solder    -0.65
Lead, solid or plated; high lead alloys    -0.70
2000 series wrought aluminum    -0.75
Iron, wrought, gray or malleable, plain carbon and low alloy steels    -0.85
Aluminum, wrought alloys other than 2000 series aluminum, cast alloys of the silicon type    -0.90
Aluminum, cast alloys other than silicon type, cadmium, plated and chromate    -0.95
Hot-dip-zinc plate; galvanized steel    -1.20
Zinc, wrought; zinc-base die-casting alloys; zinc plated    -1.25
Magnesium & magnesium-base alloys, cast or wrought    -1.75
Beryllium    -1.85
Most Anodic    


CONCLUSIONS
The anodic index of copper (the wire) is -0.35v.  The anodic index of stainless steel is -0.50v - A difference of 0.15, OK per the above discussion.  Note the anodic index of cast aluminum is -0.95v - a difference of 0.60v when in contact with the copper wire - HIGH GALVANIC CORROSION IS PREDICTED.

As I said - you can reduce or prevent it by coating the connection - and I use electrically conductive compounds that are made for connecting to aluminum.

I'll make a note, when flying into NH, not to let McCarthy touch my airplane.


Yes that's all very nice, except that nowhere does it say that you cannot electrically bond to or through aluminum. I'm intimately familiar with galvanic corrosion because I'm a structures specialist. I've seen lots of it.

And you won't make it here anyway because your electrically bonded through it's aluminum structure (at literally HUNDREDS of places) aircraft is going to crash before it get here.  Wink

Seriously Marky-Mark, just go ahead and post my full address like you did before. I know you want to and I really don't mind.
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Boxer rebellion, the Holy Child. They all pay their rent.
But none together can testify to the rhythm of a road well bent.
Saddles and zip codes, passports and gates, the Jones' keep.
In August the water is trickling, in April it's furious deep.

1997 Valk Standard, Red and White.
BF
Member
*****
Posts: 9932


Fort Walton Beach, Florida I'm a simple man, I like pretty, dark haired woman and breakfast food.


« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2012, 04:47:30 PM »

Problem solved.  I ran it to a frame ground to where the overflow bottle mounts to the frame.  After looking around for somewhere to run the ground wire to, I looked under where the overflow bottle is mounted to the frame.  There was already some bare metal there (I guess from 15 years of wear).  Cleaned it up some more, coated the entire area with dielectric grease and attached it.  

Ran the power wires.....and insto-presto.....I have stereo.  WOO HOO.   Smiley

Thanks for the help Mark   cooldude.......Anvil not so much. 

« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 04:49:47 PM by BF » Logged

I can't help about the shape I'm in
I can't sing, I ain't pretty and my legs are thin
But don't ask me what I think of you
I might not give the answer that you want me to
 

alph
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Posts: 5513


Eau Claire, WI.


« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2012, 07:19:16 PM »

funny, every circuit breaker box i've ever wired in the last 20 years has had an aluminum grounding bar!!  didn't know it was a problem until now.....

as for saving a few feet of wire because it's easier is a poor reason to use it as ground.  we place static grounding rings on our motors (at work) to protect the motor bearings from getting zapped with static even if the motor housing is shielded to ground, the armiture isn't if you've got a lovejoy with a plastic spider gear attatched to the shaft.  sure it may not seem like much but bearings where not designed to transmit electricity, and if you don't think it'll harm 'em, i've got buckets of bad bearings from motors over the years that'll prove you wrong.
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art
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Grants Pass,Or

Grants Pass,Or


« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2012, 08:12:39 PM »

I agree on that but I still don't think 12 volts is going to hurt a steering head bearing
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Mr Steve
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Feeding Hills, MA


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« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2012, 10:23:20 PM »

I've had a set of 50W lights grounded through my triple tree for 11 years now (well, they were 30W for five of those years...maybe more as the light bar was already on it when I bought the bike).   I never really thought much about it as the lights ground to the inside of their shell by design, but no problems yet with the bearings.   Interesting info, though, especially about the main battery ground, I didn't know they were failing on people.  I am going to have to take a look at mine now.
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MarkT
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« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2012, 12:25:29 AM »

I had a helluva time getting a good ground for my 50 watt spots, that were grounded directly to the fork tubes, at Inzane I.  yeah, at Zanesville.  I tried everything I had in my road kit to no avail.  I finally soldered on a longer wire and ran the ground to a screw in the steel frame.  Voila!  No more problem.

Since then I have used the frame throughout the bike, for the return path for all the electrical additions except audio.  Including the bling added on the fork.  LED's, A/C landing lights, relay grounds.  No failures on any of them, or the bearings - as long as I made the ground to steel, not aluminum. Remember, this is only 12 volts.  Not much potential to bridge across a weak connection, like high voltage - eg. 120 or 240 in a house circuit.  I just don't think there's enough current to hurt the fork bearings, particularly because they are in grease, and there are multiple ground paths.  If I believed there was a problem I wouldn't hesitate to add a ground strap - but I just don't believe there is.  I did add a ground strap between the engine and the frame, after I moved the main battery ground off the engine, to the frame.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2012, 12:30:57 AM by MarkT » Logged


Vietnam-474 TFW Takhli 9-12/72 Linebckr II;307 SBW U-Tapao 05/73-4
Mr Steve
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Feeding Hills, MA


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« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2012, 10:16:09 AM »

I have not had any issues with the two cobra light bars I've used, but the PO or someone (dealer, PO was not a mechanic) may have installed a ground between the trees and frame somewhere I have not yet seen, perhaps through the headlight.
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