open carry being discussed on "gun talk"

[musclehead]

looks like someone pushed his second amendment right and went to a school to vote while open carrying. yes he was within his bounds to do so BUT he loses many sympathetic people by pushing it into people's faces.  most folks don't like to be pushed.  (think it was Fudgie? I think it might have been Indiana)

a more thoughtful approach might have been to call the police presumptively and inform them you were going to be in a situation that may make people want you to get arrested. the fellow may be right but he's not winning the hearts and minds, the battle won but more people lost with the cry of "my cold dead fingers"

my view is definitely pro open carry, the more people see open carry perhaps they might get used to it. (not holding my breath)  carrying to school? not smart too many times we've seen schools locked down because some one may have seen someone carrying a gun nearby. I probably wouldn't carry into a bank either.....

I'm conflicted

[musclehead]

happened in Michigan

[fudgie]

Your right, he was within his right. It was in MI. In MI you can oc on school grounds if you have your permit, its legal. Why call ahead? Do you call the cops and say 'I will be driving 35 mph in the 35 mph zone in 15 min'  lol Not sure how OC is pushing it into peoples faces.  ??? Some choose there right to wear it openly and other choose to hid it. Why have a right and not use it? OC is a sign of a right that is more upfront then cc and joining gun right groups. They are more of a silent majority. Folks that never oc never learn the reasons behind their myths of not doing it. I'm pro oc, as you guessed. I never was yrs ago because of these myths. I never have to worry about what I wear or where I go. Plus I can defend myself alot faster.

Dont be afraid to oc. If you are afraid of that tiny part, are you gonna be able to defend yourself? I never care what the public thinks of me. I'm my own person. I also cc, esp in winter.

[musclehead]

I'm not afraid to open carry, just don't want to turn people off the idea.

plus I can't carry open or otherwise on the road. I can transport from a state to another state where i'm legal to own. but I'm 48 state OTR never know when I'm going to be in NY 

[fudgie]

I'm not afraid to open carry, just don't want to turn people off the idea.

plus I can't carry open or otherwise on the road. I can transport from a state to another state where i'm legal to own. but I'm 48 state OTR never know when I'm going to be in NY 

Guess I didnt mean you personally. Folks are gonna be turned off either way. Either pro 2A or not.
Vehicle carry in different States sux! 

[The Anvil]

I see both of your points but voting locations can be tense scenes. I can see why the authorities don't give it a warm and fuzzy. Just wear a jacket Mr. Bigshot. 

[fudgie]

I see both of your points but voting locations can be tense scenes. I can see why the authorities don't give it a warm and fuzzy. Just wear a jacket Mr. Bigshot. 

Yes but LEO's are to protect laws, not opinions. 

[The Anvil]

I see both of your points but voting locations can be tense scenes. I can see why the authorities don't give it a warm and fuzzy. Just wear a jacket Mr. Bigshot. 

Yes but LEO's are to protect laws, not opinions. 

Yeah but once in a while it's not all about you all the time. Once in a while you can just cover your pistol so as to ease the tension. Should people get wound up around guns? No, but some do.

[Titan]

Hey Fudgie! Be aware that I am not addressing this at you. This is just my opinion.

I personally think its completely wrong, stragegically, to carry a gun openly visible if you have the ability to carry it concealed legally. It makes no sense whatsoever to broadcast the fact that you have a gun. I know all the arguments have been kicked around and everybody has their own ideas about the issue. There's also the thing about some people who just want to carry openly just to take a stand on their rights and they will never listen to any arguments against it. But I will always prefer to not draw attention to myself if a situation goes down and hang on to my element of surprise.

Everybody can imagine how things would go if you happened to be standing in a checkout line when a couple of gun toting bad guys come storming in and the first thing they see is you wearing a gun! And how about when you're sitting in a restaurant with your family and some maniac, who's been sitting nearby watching you, decides its time to start shooting. He starts with you!

I'm sure this is just like arguing religion and everybody has their opinion. This is just mine.
 

[Robert]

I would not be making a statement, If you carry for protection cc is the best. Makes people uneasy and makes them question why regardless if you are right. People feel free to talk to you just like normal and if you get in trouble there's nothing that quiet things down faster than to put your hand on it.

[musclehead]

Hey Fudgie! Be aware that I am not addressing this at you. This is just my opinion.

I personally think its completely wrong, stragegically, to carry a gun openly visible if you have the ability to carry it concealed legally. It makes no sense whatsoever to broadcast the fact that you have a gun. I know all the arguments have been kicked around and everybody has their own ideas about the issue. There's also the thing about some people who just want to carry openly just to take a stand on their rights and they will never listen to any arguments against it. But I will always prefer to not draw attention to myself if a situation goes down and hang on to my element of surprise.

Everybody can imagine how things would go if you happened to be standing in a checkout line when a couple of gun toting bad guys come storming in and the first thing they see is you wearing a gun! And how about when you're sitting in a restaurant with your family and some maniac, who's been sitting nearby watching you, decides its time to start shooting. He starts with you!

I'm sure this is just like arguing religion and everybody has their opinion. This is just mine.
 

not always are the bad guys great shots, and since they are there to perpatrate a crime it illustrates they have bad judgement. calm cool and collected they are not. if'n I was a 'bad guy' I would want to take out the one carrying openly, cuts down on the return fire. am I going to notice everything about everyone? probably not.

[Bob E.]

Keep in mind, I am stating this as a gun owner with a concealed carry license...If open carry is making people uncomfortable, you are actually endangering your 2nd Amendment.  Look at what is happening with all of the noise ordinances because of loud pipes.  When you get a large group of people annoyed, they can start pushing legislation.  Practice your 2nd Amendment responsibly or risk losing it.

[fudgie]

Hey Fudgie! Be aware that I am not addressing this at you. This is just my opinion.

I personally think its completely wrong, stragegically, to carry a gun openly visible if you have the ability to carry it concealed legally. It makes no sense whatsoever to broadcast the fact that you have a gun. I know all the arguments have been kicked around and everybody has their own ideas about the issue. There's also the thing about some people who just want to carry openly just to take a stand on their rights and they will never listen to any arguments against it. But I will always prefer to not draw attention to myself if a situation goes down and hang on to my element of surprise.

Everybody can imagine how things would go if you happened to be standing in a checkout line when a couple of gun toting bad guys come storming in and the first thing they see is you wearing a gun! And how about when you're sitting in a restaurant with your family and some maniac, who's been sitting nearby watching you, decides its time to start shooting. He starts with you!

I'm sure this is just like arguing religion and everybody has their opinion. This is just mine.
 

Thx, I was aware.

Its those myths I was talkin about. 

[Clark]

Hey Fudgie! Be aware that I am not addressing this at you. This is just my opinion.

I personally think its completely wrong, stragegically, to carry a gun openly visible if you have the ability to carry it concealed legally. It makes no sense whatsoever to broadcast the fact that you have a gun. I know all the arguments have been kicked around and everybody has their own ideas about the issue. There's also the thing about some people who just want to carry openly just to take a stand on their rights and they will never listen to any arguments against it. But I will always prefer to not draw attention to myself if a situation goes down and hang on to my element of surprise.

Everybody can imagine how things would go if you happened to be standing in a checkout line when a couple of gun toting bad guys come storming in and the first thing they see is you wearing a gun! And how about when you're sitting in a restaurant with your family and some maniac, who's been sitting nearby watching you, decides its time to start shooting. He starts with you!

I'm sure this is just like arguing religion and everybody has their opinion. This is just mine.
 

+1...sorry fudge

[Clark]

Keep in mind, I am stating this as a gun owner with a concealed carry license...If open carry is making people uncomfortable, you are actually endangering your 2nd Amendment.  Look at what is happening with all of the noise ordinances because of loud pipes.  When you get a large group of people annoyed, they can start pushing legislation.  Practice your 2nd Amendment responsibly or risk losing it.

+2..SORRY FUDGE

[texaninsouthfl]

Hey Fudgie! Be aware that I am not addressing this at you. This is just my opinion.

I personally think its completely wrong, stragegically, to carry a gun openly visible if you have the ability to carry it concealed legally. It makes no sense whatsoever to broadcast the fact that you have a gun. I know all the arguments have been kicked around and everybody has their own ideas about the issue. There's also the thing about some people who just want to carry openly just to take a stand on their rights and they will never listen to any arguments against it. But I will always prefer to not draw attention to myself if a situation goes down and hang on to my element of surprise.

Everybody can imagine how things would go if you happened to be standing in a checkout line when a couple of gun toting bad guys come storming in and the first thing they see is you wearing a gun! And how about when you're sitting in a restaurant with your family and some maniac, who's been sitting nearby watching you, decides its time to start shooting. He starts with you!

I'm sure this is just like arguing religion and everybody has their opinion. This is just mine.
 

This particular argument against open carry SOUNDS logical and lots of people buy it, but while many bad guys aren't especially bright, most of them do have an acute sense of self preservation and if they see an establishment in which a person is openly carrying, it's far more likely they'll choose an easier target. Please feel free to tell me of instances that prove me wrong. I've never read of a robbery where the perp stormed in, saw a citizen with a pistol on his or her hip and instead of running right back out the door, opens fire on the armed citizen... sorry, just doesn't happen and it's a fallacious argument.

I believe in open carry and but even if Florida wasn't one of the few states that doesn't permit it, I would likely still choose to carry concealed because I just don't care for the possibility of being hassled by fine Americans who are terrified of inanimate objects or who think anyone carrying a firearm must be by definition, a wild eyed killer.

[Clark]

lets do a hypothetical here.. lets say yer the bad guy.. and you didnt storm in.. you sat there eaing a sammich and casin the joint.. you decided to do the nasty deed.. just as you made your move you spotted a guy who was open carrying. would you be inclined to just ignore him and hope he didnt respond to your action or would you maybe put 1 or 2 in him first then carry on with yer dasturdly deed.. ya cant say it aint possible.. if I were there and saw it happen I would have to pull my concealed weapon and take him out..

[Jess from VA]

Open carry in the open plains seems reasonable.  It does not seem reasonable in urban-populated areas for a boatload of reasons.  I completely understand exercising a right to protect it in theory, but from a personal security point of view (which is why I carry) it is a distant second to concealed carry.

I wouldn't worry so much about the armed robber type seeing it first, I'd worry about the worm-in-the-head-type making a grab for it from behind me (maybe with some help from a friend or two) .

[MarkT]

Good arguments here.  I CC always, never OC, for the reasons already given above.  Once I was at a gas station, filling up in Woodland Park, and a young dumass happened to see my carry inside my cover coat - the a-hole started yelling, "HE HAS A GUN!! - HE HAS A GUN!! - HE HAS A GUN!!".  I wanted to smack the jerk.  Like having a gun is an automatic beginning of an armed incident.  I almost want to pick up one of those Concealed Carry badges that look like an LEO badge from a distance, and put it on my belt next to the piece.  But I instead use a better holster now, an IWB strong side DeSantis Scorpion in Kydex.  The pistols never print or show now.

[bogator]

 In ALABAMA--if you have a cc permit--you can not open carry-

[junior]

Shopping in Texas?	powered by Aeva

[fudgie]

This particular argument against open carry SOUNDS logical and lots of people buy it, but while many bad guys aren't especially bright, most of them do have an acute sense of self preservation and if they see an establishment in which a person is openly carrying, it's far more likely they'll choose an easier target. Please feel free to tell me of instances that prove me wrong. I've never read of a robbery where the perp stormed in, saw a citizen with a pistol on his or her hip and instead of running right back out the door, opens fire on the armed citizen... sorry, just doesn't happen and it's a fallacious argument.

You right it has never been reported. 

[fudgie]

lets do a hypothetical here.. lets say yer the bad guy.. and you didnt storm in.. you sat there eaing a sammich and casin the joint.. you decided to do the nasty deed.. just as you made your move you spotted a guy who was open carrying. would you be inclined to just ignore him and hope he didnt respond to your action or would you maybe put 1 or 2 in him first then carry on with yer dasturdly deed.. ya cant say it aint possible.. if I were there and saw it happen I would have to pull my concealed weapon and take him out..

If his intentions were to shoot, then those were already made before we went it. If not and he saw the gun he would just leave. I sure could draw faster then trying to get it out of my ankle or under my coat.  Same could go the other way if I was CC. He see's me stirring in my seat trying to get my pistol and then he nails me.
 Plus I never set with my back to the door (to many angry husbands) and I set where I can see everyone.

Have you walked into a place and tried to look at everyone and notice any pagers, phones, etc? Its hard to do. Now add the addrenaline rush to it and its even harder.

Visability is a deterent in itself.

[fudgie]

In ALABAMA--if you have a cc permit--you can not open carry-

Are ya sure? Usually its the other way or if you have no permit/ lisc you can oc.

[solo1]

The guy in Michigan carrying on voting day into a school probably was in the right.  Carrying into a school is illegal in Indiana. That is the law at the present, right or wrong.

I'm an opponent of open carry.  I'll say it again, IMHO, it's perceived by some to be an 'in your face' act. It also makes the general public very nervous, especially in Indiana where there are no requirements for firearm training for a permit.

Many years ago I was an instructor in a class teaching Boy Scouts firearm safety.  Live shooting was involved at the Sheriffs indoor range.  One of the civilian instructor was doing the open carry bit with a cocked and locked 1911. The need for carry in an LEO environment seemed ridiculous to me. Maybe he was a wannabe rent a cop or LEO.    In any case, it was a distraction to the class of impressionable kids.

Mark and I taught a safety firearms class for the New Haven Park Board a week ago and we had two NH LEOs come in and answer questions. Open carry was one of the questions.  Both were in agreement. Yes, it's legal but a bad idea coming from their viewpoint.  New Haven is considered very conservative including its Police officers.  I agree plus I don't see the point why oc is perceived to be a better recognition of the 2nd amendment than CC. Actually  I don't see the point at all.

I have been a Hunting safety instructor with the Indiana DNR, an NRA instructor teaching home firearms safety, rifle, and handgun instructor, even archery and air rifle instructor.  I have have been doing this for over 40 years so I'm just throwing out my .02.  My .02 and a dollar or so will get you a cup of coffee.

One of the two New Haven officers, at the class, owns a Valkyrie............and it's for sale.  There, now its motorcycle related, 

[musclehead]

Keep in mind, I am stating this as a gun owner with a concealed carry license...If open carry is making people uncomfortable, you are actually endangering your 2nd Amendment.  Look at what is happening with all of the noise ordinances because of loud pipes.  When you get a large group of people annoyed, they can start pushing legislation.  Practice your 2nd Amendment responsibly or risk losing it.

that's part of the point I didn't get across, when the smart guy goes to a school to vote and gets arrested. then people find out 'what he can do that leagally???' next thing you know they pass a law so you can't.  don't give the gun grabbers ammo to use againts the RTKBA.

[The Anvil]

I'm an opponent of open carry.  I'll say it again, IMHO, it's perceived by some to be an 'in your face' act. It also makes the general public very nervous, especially in Indiana where there are no requirements for firearm training for a permit.

The public indoor range I occasionally frequent (or frequently occasion???) now has a full time rangemaster because so many clueless people want to shoot guns these days.

[solo1]

Anvil, an excellent point!

Ive talked to the Chief of Police a number of times about this.  Indiana does not require experience or even basic knowledge of firearms in order to get a CCW permit.  He is very uneasy about the number of permits that he is required to approve when he knows that the applicant has no experience of any kind concerning firearms.

I have found that the average guy thinks that he was born with a top knowledge of firearms.  On the other hand, women that I've helped over the years, come in with no perceived knowledge and are much more willing to learn proper safe handling.

I firmly believe that Indiana should have some sort of a firearm training program requirement in order to get a license.  However, being a former local politician and a conservative, that training should be with no strings attached, no pass or fail, no bureaucrat making the rules, just a program that uses a philosophy that says,  'You've been exposed to the proper way to handle firearms responsibly.  If you screw up, you knew better"

Indiana's ccw is not recognised in many states because of no firearm knowledge training required.  I'd like to see that changed but I wouldn't have a clue where the instructors would come from.

[Clark]

The guy in Michigan carrying on voting day into a school probably was in the right.  Carrying into a school is illegal in Indiana. That is the law at the present, right or wrong.

I'm an opponent of open carry.  I'll say it again, IMHO, it's perceived by some to be an 'in your face' act. It also makes the general public very nervous, especially in Indiana where there are no requirements for firearm training for a permit.

Many years ago I was an instructor in a class teaching Boy Scouts firearm safety.  Live shooting was involved at the Sheriffs indoor range.  One of the civilian instructor was doing the open carry bit with a cocked and locked 1911. The need for carry in an LEO environment seemed ridiculous to me. Maybe he was a wannabe rent a cop or LEO.    In any case, it was a distraction to the class of impressionable kids.

Mark and I taught a safety firearms class for the New Haven Park Board a week ago and we had two NH LEOs come in and answer questions. Open carry was one of the questions.  Both were in agreement. Yes, it's legal but a bad idea coming from their viewpoint.  New Haven is considered very conservative including its Police officers.  I agree plus I don't see the point why oc is perceived to be a better recognition of the 2nd amendment than CC. Actually  I don't see the point at all.

I have been a Hunting safety instructor with the Indiana DNR, an NRA instructor teaching home firearms safety, rifle, and handgun instructor, even archery and air rifle instructor.  I have have been doing this for over 40 years so I'm just throwing out my .02.  My .02 and a dollar or so will get you a cup of coffee.

One of the two New Haven officers, at the class, owns a Valkyrie............and it's for sale.  There, now its motorcycle related, 

WSFS.. = well said fellow strommer

[The Anvil]

I have found that the average guy thinks that he was born with a top knowledge of firearms.  On the other hand, women that I've helped over the years, come in with no perceived knowledge and are much more willing to learn proper safe handling.

In my experience women (on average) make better initial gun owners and marksmen. They start out with a healthier respect for the weapon and their own limitations. They're not crippled by the same ego issues that we often are. The also tend to have greater fine motor skills and eye-hand coordination than men. Now, the fact that we are as competitive as we are means that the ceiling for men in terms of skill tends to be higher. But women are quicker learners. Just my experience. TIFWIW.

Personally, I shoot often (both for fun and preparedness) and I take it very seriously. The recent glut of gun ownership is both a help and a hindrance to the cause. It's a help in that it means more support for retaining 2nd amendment rights. But an argument often made for 2nd amendment rights is that cars are also deadly weapons and we aren't banning those. But many of these same people bristle when you suggest that people pass basic safety training courses in order to own them. I never hear these same people complaining that automobile drivers must be licensed. Well I'd be lying if I said that I didn't see a potential increase in death and injury attributed to poor-handling skills and trigger-happiness.

[larswlvs]

The only time I open carry is at Halloween when I dress up as a gunfighter Clint Eastwood style.I see no need to advertise that I am armed any other time of the year.Ohio is an open carry state  so if you got it and want to show it ..go for it! Its just not for me

[Jess from VA]

Come to think of it, Halloween was the last (only) time I did so too (years ago).  At a party in gun-loving DC.  My tie down full buscadero rig (for a .44 Ruger) will hold my replica 1st model colts dragoon.  So I popped the wedge and disassembled the pistol and put it in a bag, then reassembled it for the holster upon arrival (no doubt even black powder guns were illegal in DC... just like empty brass shell casings).  Had the full riverboat gambler thing going on with vest and waistcoat, striped trousers tall boots and big hat. 

The replica playboy bunnies had me beat by a mile though.  Talk about squeezing a pair of 44s into (and out the top of) a tight package.   

As we shysters like to say........... gave me an extension in my contract. 

[fudgie]

Keep in mind, I am stating this as a gun owner with a concealed carry license...If open carry is making people uncomfortable, you are actually endangering your 2nd Amendment.  Look at what is happening with all of the noise ordinances because of loud pipes.  When you get a large group of people annoyed, they can start pushing legislation.  Practice your 2nd Amendment responsibly or risk losing it.

that's part of the point I didn't get across, when the smart guy goes to a school to vote and gets arrested. then people find out 'what he can do that leagally???' next thing you know they pass a law so you can't.  don't give the gun grabbers ammo to use againts the RTKBA.

Its no different then the current rash of permits being issued. 'Whoa, alot of gun sales and permits are going out, we better control this!' Not gonna happen. Folks have been oc since guns were invented.

[fudgie]

The only time I open carry is at Halloween when I dress up as a gunfighter Clint Eastwood style.I see no need to advertise that I am armed any other time of the year.Ohio is an open carry state  so if you got it and want to show it ..go for it! Its just not for me

Before I got my Utah, I could only open carry in Ohio because my Ind LTCH is not valid in Ohio.

[fudgie]

I have found that the average guy thinks that he was born with a top knowledge of firearms.  On the other hand, women that I've helped over the years, come in with no perceived knowledge and are much more willing to learn proper safe handling.

In my experience women (on average) make better initial gun owners and marksmen. They start out with a healthier respect for the weapon and their own limitations. They're not crippled by the same ego issues that we often are. The also tend to have greater fine motor skills and eye-hand coordination than men. Now, the fact that we are as competitive as we are means that the ceiling for men in terms of skill tends to be higher. But women are quicker learners. Just my experience. TIFWIW.

Personally, I shoot often (both for fun and preparedness) and I take it very seriously. The recent glut of gun ownership is both a help and a hindrance to the cause. It's a help in that it means more support for retaining 2nd amendment rights. But an argument often made for 2nd amendment rights is that cars are also deadly weapons and we aren't banning those. But many of these same people bristle when you suggest that people pass basic safety training courses in order to own them. I never hear these same people complaining that automobile drivers must be licensed. Well I'd be lying if I said that I didn't see a potential increase in death and injury attributed to poor-handling skills and trigger-happiness.

I agree, women are more apt to listen then men. Well at least on guns.  Kit shoots very well. Some days better then me, but I blame it on the firearm. 

[fudgie]

In ALABAMA--if you have a cc permit--you can not open carry-

I read it differently. No permit required to oc. Permit required to oc in a vehicle. Ya might wanna check.

[98valk]

http://gunowners.org/op0218.htm

Even better, the government is giving away guns to teachers.

Elinor Shor was described by the paper as neither a settler -- those in the most vulnerable areas of the country -- nor a gun fanatic. Just a primary school teacher. Yet, there she was, trying out her free handgun at the Krav (Battle) gun shop and firing range.

When will it occur to American officials and teachers that declaring schools to be Gun Free Zones is the same as sending an engraved invitation to an Al Qaeda terrorist(s) to come on over and shoot up some schools?

After September 11, can we really believe that criminals, let alone terrorists, will check out the law and say, "Awe shucks, I can't take my gun onto the school campus." Perhaps they will opt for a bomb instead.

What a tragedy if a suicide bomber walks on to a school ground, and teachers see what is about to happen, but nobody can do what Israelis have done under similar circumstances in Israel -- pull their piece and pop the 'perp.'

[Bob E.]

Keep in mind, I am stating this as a gun owner with a concealed carry license...If open carry is making people uncomfortable, you are actually endangering your 2nd Amendment.  Look at what is happening with all of the noise ordinances because of loud pipes.  When you get a large group of people annoyed, they can start pushing legislation.  Practice your 2nd Amendment responsibly or risk losing it.

that's part of the point I didn't get across, when the smart guy goes to a school to vote and gets arrested. then people find out 'what he can do that leagally???' next thing you know they pass a law so you can't.  don't give the gun grabbers ammo to use againts the RTKBA.

Its no different then the current rash of permits being issued. 'Whoa, alot of gun sales and permits are going out, we better control this!' Not gonna happen. Folks have been oc since guns were invented.

The difference is that its not the wild wild west anymore.  And if you truly think its "Not gonna happen", well...I believe thats akin to daring them to do something.