Politics, wow! But Obama Care, I don't know?

[oZ]

I’ve absolutely enjoy when you guys talk politics and I’m learning while I do it. We have a lot of really knowledgeable people in this club.

The reason for this post is in my life the government has impacted my life twice, first when I was drafted and now my employment by changing my career. I have spent 36 years working in healthcare for the same employer, a not for profit organization that manages 4 hospitals. I work in marketing and advertising.

Upon the passage of Obamacare, yes that’s what we call it, administration laid off 1200 employees. I work in marketing and our department was decimated; we went from 14 employees to 3 employees in that layoff. Administration’s reasoning seems sound as far as our department goes, we don’t need to expend any monies on marketing as it will not be up to people to select which health provider they want, that will be determined by the government or their agents the insurance companies.

We… like other hospitals are implementing strategies on how to survive in this new environment. I won’t list them here as some of the strategies are not for public knowledge.

So my 2 cents.
Medi-cal (Mediaid in the rest of the U.S.) reimbursements is going to be less, real soon!

Medicare will decline.

Hospitals will be judged by patient satisfaction surveys
•  An interesting factoid, 3 teaching hospitals in New York known for their clinical expertise have horrible patient satisfaction scores. Patients base their experience on the how nice the nurses are or cleanliness of the hospital, all important things to be sure. These three hospitals are renown for excellent outcomes (mortality rates and such) but will be penalized under this new system because a nurse wasn’t nice, or whatever AND their patients are New Yorkers!!!  Could you  have a tougher crowd, please! (o: (that will get me in trouble)

This next one is serious and our hospitals will not do it, we will close our doors before enacting this strategy. The strategy is selecting patients by diagnosis; smaller hospitals without Foundations to help support them financially will be closing their Cancer and Heart centers,

they’d like to close their Emergency Rooms but in California that’s not an option (state law). As it is people with serious diagnosis and on Medi-Cal are always a loss leader, hence closing those centers.

One more factoid, on average over the past five years our hospital loses over a million dollars a quarter providing indigent care, we have a mission statement and no one gets turned away.

Luckily, being in business for 90 years (that’s a long time for California) we have a very supportive community that supports us through our Foundation, only problem is they do help with indigent care… now. But as our revenues decrease will Foundation still be able to cover our costs.

The general opinion of the staff I work with is... we are screwed, but so is the community we serve as we close facilities one by one until we run out of monies.

To bottom line it, and this is an opinion which I share with my fellow employees… when our hospital system goes bankrupt the government will step in and somehow take over the management of our facilities, they have to, we serve a community of over 975,000, where are they going to go?

I keep thinking of things, sorry. If we had not done the layoff when we did we would have been closing facilities by the end of this fiscal year.

Oh and we use to provide community support,  we had a department called Community Wellness Center that provided free prenatal education and clinical care for expectant mothers, education for folks with diabetes. The Cancer Resource Center which provided for the needs of patients suffering with cancer providing things from counseling to wigs and everything in between. We had a converted motorhome that went into the poorer communities (think recent immigrants) and provided free inoculations for childhood diseases.

These were all services provided to our community, free based on our mission to keep our community well, in body, mind and spirit... gone!

Hey where do you think we found people to lay off. The above services we’re not revenue generators hence, gone. I guess that’s all for now, it may be different where you live but this is not just our hospitals' story, most of the hospitals in the Los Angeles basin our actually in more trouble than us.

They are in less fortunate neighborhoods or don’t have a supportive Foundation, not being in business for 90 years they don’t own their property, they have a mortgage! Some have closed.

Crap I keep thinking of things, WE LOVED CANADIANS! They were cash patients and they use to come to us for chemo and radiation treatments, cataract surgery, cosmetics surgery and a never ending list of other services especially Orthopedic Surgeries (bone stuff).

I don’t specifically know why they came to us, I figure they were rich! I asked the Business Office why we didn’t get them anymore and it seems in Canada they have a new growing system of private clinics and such AND these for profit businesses (illegal in Canada, but hey who's looking) are providing care for less money than we did. (see a little more below).

In about 13 years of being involved with this message board I’ve never chimed in on political conversations, hell I don't understand most of what you guys are saying, but like I said this is only the second time the government had so much impacted my personal life!

I like most of our physicians over 50 years of age expect we'll be taking early retirement, that would be a working retirement for me.
oZ

**************************************************************************
Taken from Macleans, a Canadian Magazine (found there website)
Health care, as it is currently funded, is unsustainable in Canada," said Glen Roberts, director of health programs for the Conference Board. Not surprisingly, those with the means are looking for alternative, more expedient options. According to a Decima Research poll conducted in June, negative ratings of the country's health care system have now eclipsed positive ratings, increasing the pressure for change. And the qualms many Canadians had about "two-tier health care" are fading. The Decima poll found that a majority of Canadians now approve of private health care -- 51 percent said they thought private family doctors were a good or very good idea. In Quebec and British Columbia, those figures were 58 per cent and 53 per cent respectively.
READ THE WHOLE ARTICLE HERE http://www.macleans.ca/article.jsp?content=20060501_125881_125881

[Skinhead]

Sorry to hear of your lay off, Oz.  Unfortunately it will only get worse.  I hope people think about it and get out and VOTE!

[Serk]

Thank you for the insightful commentary. IMHO, forcing the private healthcare and insurance industries to go bankrupt and out of business was their plan all along. Once they can drive the free market out, then the government will have carte blanche  to swoop in and set up a full fledged government run healthcare system.

I really hope we can reverse course and fix things before they achieve that goal.

And, having been through layoffs myself, I really hate to hear what's happening to you and your co-workers. 

[PharmBoy]

Obamacare will be very complicated in the manner in which it will be implimented and will be like a slow growing vine which will eventually and simply strangle the life out of humanity's best health care system in the history of the world.  If you think that you have problems getting health care now, just wait until it is "free" and most of the health care professionals have retired, no new drugs are being brought into the system to combat the ever increasing complexity of the diseases we face, and you have to have prior approval from some government bureaucracy before you can be treated for anything other than a simple cold or a broken bone.  And when you reach a predetermined age, all you will receive is pain medication untill you are no longer with us.  Yes it is all provided for in those 3,000+ pages of the Democratically crafted and Democratically passed law known as "Obamacare"...Jim

[Gear Jammer]

Good read Oz.   I hope the koolaid drinkers of Amerika are happy with what they've wrought 

[Bob E.]

Oz....I'm sorry to hear about your job. But, if that is the reason they gave, they lied to you.  I didn't even read your entire post because the first half was so full of mis-information, I couldn't continue.  You pretty much lost me when you said the government would be selecting who gets insurance from which companies (which was the reason you said you were laid off).  This simply isn't true.  I work in engineering and guess what...our corporate folks laid off a ton of admin people about that time too.  It was because of the economy and companies were cutting back wherever they could.  And generally, admin staff are overhead and not profit generators...at least not directly.

[Oss]

Bob

there is a button for PM

Before you tell someone on a Board they dont know what they are talking about or people lied to them
and I am sure you have no animosity to Oz

Maybe just Maybe give them the courtesy of a PM

Its got nothing to do with caring who likes or dont like you its about showing respect and
hence earning it in return

This poster has no political ax to grind and is speaking of a lifetime of experience in HIS little sector of the health field universe and is a cool dude, besides being one of the fathers of this board

And he expressed that he was not trying to spew what passed as political assasination all winter on this board

I am gonna be riding today ....on my Valkyrie....before the rain gets here

 

and yes I am now guilty of not using that PM button as well   

[MP]

+1, OSS

[Gear Jammer]

Yep, there's the first one,,,,,,,,,

[Bob E.]

Bob

there is a button for PM

Before you tell someone on a Board they dont know what they are talking about or people lied to them
and I am sure you have no animosity to Oz

Maybe just Maybe give them the courtesy of a PM

Its got nothing to do with caring who likes or dont like you its about showing respect and
hence earning it in return

This poster has no political ax to grind and is speaking of a lifetime of experience in HIS little sector of the health field universe and is a cool dude, besides being one of the fathers of this board

And he expressed that he was not trying to spew what passed as political assasination all winter on this board

I am gonna be riding today ....on my Valkyrie....before the rain gets here

 

and yes I am now guilty of not using that PM button as well   

I wasn't being disrespectful and apologize if it sounded that way.  I was merely telling him that he was misinformed.  And that's the biggest problem with this law.  There is so much information about it that has been generated that people are being manipulated.  I don't see how correcting "facts" that someone posted in a public forum with a response calling out those facts on the same forum is disrespectful.  I never insulted him or called him names or said he was stupid or anything.  I think my past posts should indicate that I don't operate that way.

[solo1]

I've kept out of this but can't help but respond.  Oz is telling us what happened to him and his organization.  Do NOT disclaim what he says!

I've had the 'opportunity' to avail myself of emergency services and also family care in the last two weeks.  I suspect that it will get worse despite my exercising and trying to live a healthful lifestyle best that I can.  The emergency visit was an eye opener. While care is excellent, rationing is already starting, the facility was swamped.  My family doctor told me I haven't seen anything yet!  Under Obama care (government at its worse) more will be taken into an already overstressed system while there will NOT be enough doctors to even handle the present workload and rhere is no incentive for new prospective doctors to enter the field since the government will oversee the whole profession

A good example of bureaucracy under the Obama care is  IPABS, independent Payment Advisory Board which will be composed of 15 non professional Czars who will determine if I, at 84 years of age, should get care that could extend my life..  Based on the current situation which will change into a FUBAR under the Feds complete takeover,  I will be screwed out of all care. Now don't claim that this won't happen, it will, de facto.

Now you younger healthy guys with good health insurance (so far) can talk, discuss, and argue about Obama, and quote all kinds of facts or misfacts regarding Obamacare, I don't have a detached interest in this, I have a WORRISOME interest in this.  I don't know the answers but Obamacare is not it. I can be financially and physically wiped out and thrown away easily if Obamacare continues.

Now you can continue on with owning all those toys, making a good living, sitting on the top of the world and expounding about everything under the sun, while I, who served my time in working all my life, served in Korea, raised a good family, served as a local trusted politician, could possibly end up on the trash heap, to satisfy the health needs of some people who refused to work and want a free ride.  .Oh yes, I do have one toy left, a  2006 Vstrom, and I do apologise for that.  

Reminds me of the definition of a theoretician .  It is a person who has been trained to assume everything but Responsibility.  I won't ask if the shoe fits anyone here.

I feel so strongly about this that I WILL NOT respond to any comments  about 'facts' to change my mind.  I would rather remain friendly on this board.

Wayne, solo1

[Skinhead]

Oz....I'm sorry to hear about your job. But, if that is the reason they gave, they lied to you.  I didn't even read your entire post because the first half was so full of mis-information, I couldn't continue.  You pretty much lost me when you said the government would be selecting who gets insurance from which companies (which was the reason you said you were laid off).  This simply isn't true.  I work in engineering and guess what...our corporate folks laid off a ton of admin people about that time too.  It was because of the economy and companies were cutting back wherever they could.  And generally, admin staff are overhead and not profit generators...at least not directly.

Bob,

I won't deny that large corporations lay people off all the time in bad financial times, but that DOES NOT mean that Oz's situation was not caused by Obummer Care!  And I agree with Oss.  He rocks!

PS (And Wayne too!)

[Bob E.]

I've kept out of this but can't help but respond.  Oz is telling us what happened to him and his organization.  Do NOT disclaim what he says!

I've had the 'opportunity' to avail myself of emergency services and also family care in the last two weeks.  I suspect that it will get worse despite my exercising and trying to live a healthful lifestyle best that I can.  The emergency visit was an eye opener. While care is excellent, rationing is already starting, the facility was swamped.  My family doctor told me I haven't seen anything yet!  Under Obama care (government at its worse) more will be taken into an already overstressed system while there will NOT be enough doctors to even handle the present workload and rhere is no incentive for new prospective doctors to enter the field since the government will oversee the whole profession

A good example of bureaucracy under the Obama care is  IPABS, independent Payment Advisory Board which will be composed of 15 non professional Czars who will determine if I, at 84 years of age, should get care that could extend my life..  Based on the current situation which will change into a FUBAR under the Feds complete takeover,  I will be screwed out of all care. Now don't claim that this won't happen, it will, defacto.

Now you younger healthy guys with good health insurance (so far) can talk, discuss, and argue about Obama, and quote all kinds of facts or misfacts regarding Obamacare, I don't have a detached interest in this, I have a WORRISOME interest in this.  I don't know the answers but Obamacare is not it. I can be financially and physically wiped out and thrown away easily if Obamacare continues.

Now you can continue on with owning all those toys, making a good living, sitting on the top of the world and expounding about everything under the sun, while I, who served my time in working all my life, served in Korea, raised a good family, served as a local trusted politician, could possibly end up on the trash heap, to satisfy the health needs of some people who refused to work and want a free ride.   .Oh yes, I do have one toy left, a  2006 Vstrom, and I do apologise for that. 

Reminds me of the definition of a theoretician .  It is a person who has been trained to assume everything but Responsibility.  I won't ask if the shoe fits anyone here.

I feel so strongly about this that I WILL NOT respond to any comments  about 'facts' to change my mind.  I would rather remain friendly on this board.

Wayne, solo1

Solo1...I didn't disclaim what Oz said happened...I questioned what he said he was told.  I'm sure they told him that if he says so.  But I don't believe they were being honest with him because it just isn't true that the government will be telling people which insurance company they must have.  It just isn't true.

You also reference the IPABS and imply that they are the "death panels" that has already been debunked...yet refuses to die.  I'm all for having a lively debate, but that debate has to be based in real fact and not hyperbolic talking points.  And you cannot make statements that you believe to be fact in an open forum and then expect not to be challenged on them.  Throwing those statements out there and then running away refusing to respond to challenges isn't any way to have a real debate.

[solo1]

You will note, Bob, that I said De facto.

No further words on my part.  No further discussion from me.. No additional replies on my part.

Coining a phrase from Old2Soon, "Ride safe"

Addendum.  you can take your debate and ...............  debate on how to finish this sentence.

[Jess from VA]

ABO.... then vote ZeroCare out completely and start over, keeping the US Constitution in mind.  

[JimmyG]

Oh boy, don't get me started on this. I spent several years in healthcare, started in the Army, 1968, continued on after, got educated a little, worked in Radiology, got educated a little more, worked in management. Been through the hay days of healthcare when kids would drop mom or pop off for a week stay in the hospital for their yearly check up   then on to to days of DRG's, then to the next fiasco of health care rationing attempts, and on and on. I was retired, not by choice, by a hostile CEO who thought I was behind a group trying to get him fired. (I was not by the way, but the CEO did get escorted out a few months later for some bad stuff)  So, I lost a lot, including insurance. Now I am in the group of," uninsured".  Our hospital, being rural, did about 75% Medicare,Tenn-care and uninsured customers as our base payor mix.  My departments contribution margin to the company was anywhere between 70% and 87% to the bottom line. Sooooooo, Oz, I get it, I don't care what the obamacare bill says in its massive volume of BS, I've read enough of it and know enough to say I agree with you. The rationing continues and will get worse. Sorry old farts, your gonna die now. No more complete hips when you are 89 years old,( they did two on my wife's uncle last year, he died 2 weeks ago in the nursing home), no more bypass surgeries for us old 63 year old's.  No more CT scans for everything that walks in the ER door because it is the,"standard of care". MR scan? Get in line, be about 3 months for yours sir.  Yes we can fix mommas hip, next September.  We ain't seen nothin yet folks.
 Why did the Canadians come here for care? Well, they had enough money to get their heart fixed, I mean after all, we do about 8 or 10 a day here, was that cash you said? By the way, I hired a couple Canadians several years ago and we had numerous discussions on health care and where we are headed. Can you say guvment health care? Oh yes, it's coming, it's here now, just not in it's full glory yet. So get ready, it's getting worse in anticipation of Obamacare policies and procedures and screw overs, and pork rinds hanging all over it.    OK, there, I've vented, done now, let er rip, I'm making plans to die when I get older and sick and can't get any healthcare.  Got a better home coming.

[john]

 


    hey oz           

[Clark]

I can see tellin Willow he's full a crap.. BUT OZ????  THAT TAKES CAJONES

[musclehead]

sorry OZ, chin up bro!

Bob, there is a clear majority of people that want this law GONE! I'm only hoping the repulicans have the political fortitude to get 'er done.

[Bob E.]

You will note, Bob, that I said De facto.

No further words on my part.  No further discussion from me.. No additional replies on my part.

Coining a phrase from Old2Soon, "Ride safe"

Addendum.  you can take your debate and ...............  debate on how to finish this sentence.

Class...real class...  I get it...you can say whatever you want and anyone who disagrees can............. (did I get enough dots?)  Whatever dude.

[Bob E.]

I can see tellin Willow he's full a crap.. BUT OZ????  THAT TAKES CAJONES

I never told him he was full of crap.  I said he was mis-informed.  There's a difference.

[Bob E.]

sorry OZ, chin up bro!

Bob, there is a clear majority of people that want this law GONE! I'm only hoping the repulicans have the political fortitude to get 'er done.

There is a clear majority on this board because most of the most active posters are quite conservative, but across the nation, its alot closer to 50-50. And that is mainly because of all of the mis-information that has been and continues to be dumped out there.  I saw a stat that compared ad money spent by groups opposing the law dwarfs money spent supporting the law by about a 5 to 1 margin.  And as a result, you get what we have here...a bunch of people giving reasons for opposing the law, and those reasons have no basis in fact.  The real unfortunate thing is that when someone like me tries to correct those facts, that person is attacked or belittled or whatever, rather than saying, "hmmmm, I didn't know that."  In this thread, I've been called a kool-aid drinker and told I should apologize.  If I'm wrong on my facts, show me where in the law it says what you think it says and I'll acknowledge it.  You might even convince me.

The bottom line is that when the individual details of the law are polled, they are supported by a wide margin.

[Karen]

Keep drinking the Kool Aid.

[..]

sorry OZ, chin up bro!

Bob, there is a clear majority of people that want this law GONE! I'm only hoping the repulicans have the political fortitude to get 'er done.

There is a clear majority on this board because most of the most active posters are quite conservative, but across the nation, its alot closer to 50-50. And that is mainly because of all of the mis-information that has been and continues to be dumped out there.  I saw a stat that compared ad money spent by groups opposing the law dwarfs money spent supporting the law by about a 5 to 1 margin.  And as a result, you get what we have here...a bunch of people giving reasons for opposing the law, and those reasons have no basis in fact.  The real unfortunate thing is that when someone like me tries to correct those facts, that person is attacked or belittled or whatever, rather than saying, "hmmmm, I didn't know that."  In this thread, I've been called a kool-aid drinker and told I should apologize.  If I'm wrong on my facts, show me where in the law it says what you think it says and I'll acknowledge it.  You might even convince me.

The bottom line is that when the individual details of the law are polled, they are supported by a wide margin.

Wow Bob E I'm really looking forward to the facts you have knowlege of.

Please include links to the facts you have. So far you've only written that you have knowledge of facts yet you haven't laid those facts out for others to read.

I and maybe others are really looking forward to reading those facts so we can become better educated.

ps

I'm not a fan of the Federal Govt in any form.

[Bob E.]

sorry OZ, chin up bro!

Bob, there is a clear majority of people that want this law GONE! I'm only hoping the repulicans have the political fortitude to get 'er done.

There is a clear majority on this board because most of the most active posters are quite conservative, but across the nation, its alot closer to 50-50. And that is mainly because of all of the mis-information that has been and continues to be dumped out there.  I saw a stat that compared ad money spent by groups opposing the law dwarfs money spent supporting the law by about a 5 to 1 margin.  And as a result, you get what we have here...a bunch of people giving reasons for opposing the law, and those reasons have no basis in fact.  The real unfortunate thing is that when someone like me tries to correct those facts, that person is attacked or belittled or whatever, rather than saying, "hmmmm, I didn't know that."  In this thread, I've been called a kool-aid drinker and told I should apologize.  If I'm wrong on my facts, show me where in the law it says what you think it says and I'll acknowledge it.  You might even convince me.

The bottom line is that when the individual details of the law are polled, they are supported by a wide margin.

Wow Bob E I'm really looking forward to the facts you have knowlege of.

Please include links to the facts you have. So far you've only written that you have knowledge of facts yet you haven't laid those facts out for others to read.

I and maybe others are really looking forward to reading those facts so we can become better educated.

ps

I'm not a fan of the Federal Govt in any form.

You are asking me to prove a negative...to provide a link to things that don't exist.  People are saying there are things in the law that are not there.  Show me where in the law there are death panels or where in the law it states that the government will chose who your insurance carrier is.  Here's a link... http://www.healthcare.gov/law/full/index.html

[oZ]

It might be time to stop defending political preferences because you are emotionally driven by the team you are on (Democratic, Republican, etc.) .

My experience being on the Front Line of Healthcare and how it's impacting me might be giving me an opportunity to make others aware of what's going to happen to them as the Front Lines collapse.

I've read where I might have been lied to by my employer in one of our threads, and this is a valid observation. So I thought I'd give a call to my fellow friend and employee in Strategic Planning.

How to I validate this person's a legitimate source and that he to, may be lying to me even though he holds a PHD in Economics with an emphasis on Medicine?

Reference!

Below our some portions of the Patient Protection and Afforadable Care Act that we as a hospital, employees and our doctors (AND YOU) could and most likely will be impacted by. As a citizen of the U.S. you will be impacted, you should know what's coming your way.

At the end of each point is the reference I.D. to the content in the Patient Protection and Afforadable Care Act law.

Point of concern in the Patient Protection and Afforadable Care Act law.

• Mandates auto-enrollment in long-term care at a cost of $123 per month for everyone (the CLASS Act), requiring an affirmative opt-out if you don’t wish to be covered (as soon as HHS can determine how to implement).  [5]
This section is so outrageous, Sen. Kent Conrad (D-ND), Senate Budget Committee chairman, called it “a Ponzi scheme of the first order, the kind of thing that Bernie Madoff would have been proud of.” (Yes, Sen. Conrad voted for ObamaCare and the self-described Ponzi scheme.)

• Adds a medical device tax of 2.9% on everything from CT scanners to surgical scissors, to be passed along to health-care consumers (2013)  [7]

•A large number of “mini-med” plans, typically limited-coverage plans for employer groups in the retail and fast-food industries, and providing child-only coverage, will not be able to meet federal regulations on the minimum annual dollar limit. The minimum annual limit for benefits covered by the health plan is $750,000 in 2011. HHS has so far granted waivers for more than 30 employers, including such diverse employers as McDonalds, Jack in the Box, the United Federation of Teachers Welfare Fund, and a New York teacher’s union, to allow coverage to continue for 2011.[9]

• Subjects college student medical plans to possible elimination since they will not meet the “Medical Loss Ratio” requirements recently approved by the National Association of Insurance Commissioners.[10]

The Pork Included in ObamaCare
These were concessions made to Senators and Congressmen to get there votes to pass this law, litrally protecting their constituants from the abusive nature of the law and helping these politicians to get re-elected.

The Cornhusker kickback: the federal government picks up Nebraska’s Medicaid expansion bill forever.[11]

The Louisiana Purchase: Louisiana receives $300 million for increasing Medicare subsidies.[12]

$100 million special funding for a hospital in Connecticut[13]

Funding of asbestos clean-up in Montana[14]

The Gator Aid, by which three counties in south Florida are exempted from Medicare Advantage cuts[15]

Starting in 2014: Employers who provide health-care plans for their employees will be required to ensure that the level of health-care benefits they provide their employees meet new government standards or face fines and penalties equal to $2,000 per year for each full-time employee. Even then, if their employees would have to pay more than 9.5% of their adjusted gross income for the health plan, or if the employee chooses to purchase from a government exchange, the employer will still have to pay a $2,000 penalty.[25]

Employers who provide health coverage will be required to provide an annual report to HHS that lists each individual eligible to enroll in “minimum essential coverage,” the length of waiting period, number of months that coverage was available, monthly premium for lowest-cost option, plan’s share of covered health-care expenses, number of full-time employees, number of months covered, and any other requirements that may be identified by HHS.[26]

If an employer doesn’t provide a health-care plan for employees and has more than 50 full-time employees (who work more than 30 hours per week), the employer must pay a penalty equal to $2,000 per full-time employee per year. [27]

Starting in 2014 you are required to have coverage, either from your employer or from a government-sponsored health-care exchange. If you don’t purchase it, the IRS will assess you with tax of $695 per year per family member (capped at three) or 2.5% of your income, whichever is greater.[28]
*********************************************************************************************
Problems facing my Facilities.
With the increase of covered patients, there will be a shortage of 150,000 doctors. Doctors are already overworked. Patients will have to wait longer to can get an appointment to see the doctor.

Starting in 2011, Medicare reimbursements will be reduced. Medicare already reimburses doctors at an amount equal to only 81% of private payments.

Between 18 to 20 million new Medicaid patients will flow to doctors. Medicaid coverage pays doctors 56% of the private payment amounts. Federal funding will pay for parity to Medicare for 2013 and 2014, and then it is up to the states to figure out how to pay the Medicaid doctors.

Doctors will face more federal agencies, boards, and commissions, including the Independent Payment Advisory Board in 2012, a nonprofit Outcomes Research Institute, and the Physician Quality Reporting Initiative. 59% of doctors think the quality of medicine will decline in the next five years and 79% are less optimistic about the future of medicine. 69% are thinking about dropping out of government health programs, 53% would consider opting out of treating insurance-covered patients, and 45% have considered leaving the profession altogether.

Some $416.5 billion in “savings” from Medicare (actually, cuts in Medicare payments to doctors and hospitals) is being shifted from shoring up Medicare funding to paying for ObamaCare.[37]

• Increase in hospital insurance portion of payroll tax: Medicare tax will be increased from 1.45% to 2.35% for families making more than $250,000. The new rate will be 3.8%, effective in 2013. Note: the health insurance rate increase is not being used to fund Social Security and Medicare, but rather a separate entitlement.[40]


*********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
Reference to Sections in the Patient Protection and Afforadable Care Act

[5] Section sec. 8002(a)(1) of P.L. 11-148; Letter from Douglas Elmendorf, director, Congressional Budget Office, to House speaker Nancy Pelosi, March 20, 2010.
 
[7] Section 9009 of P.L. 111-148

 Section 4205(b) of P.L. 111-148

[9] http://www.hhs.gov/ociio/ regulations/patient/appapps.html.

[10] NAIC.org, October 21, 2010, “Regulation for Medical Loss Ratio per Section 2718(b)

[11] Section 10201(C)(3) of P.L. 111-148

[12] Section 2006 of P.L. 111-148

[13] Section 10502 of P.L. 111-148

[14] Section 10323 of P.L. 111-148

[15] Section 3201(c)(3)(B) of P.L. 111-148, as amended in P.L. 111-152

[25] Section 1513(a) as amended by Section 10106 (e-g) of P.L. 111-148 and Section 1003 of P.L. 111-152

[26] Section 1514 of P.L. 111-148

[27] Section 1513(a) as amended by Section 10106 (e-g) of P.L. 111-148 and Section 1003 of P.L. 111-152

[28] Section 1501(b) as amended by Section 10106(b) of P.L. 111-148 and by Section 1002 of P.L. 111-152

[37] Letter from Douglas Elmendorf, Director, Congressional Budget Office, to House speaker Nancy Pelosi, March 20, 2010.

[40] Section 9015, of P.L. 111-148

[41] Section 1411, of P.L. 111-152

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There is a storm gathering and it's just over the horizon. You may hear the gathering thunder, feel the changing shifts in the wind, again you may be engaged with your daily trials providing for yourself and your family and just may not be aware of what's over the horizon.

"Something Wicked This Way Comes", Shakespeare
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I would like to apologize to F6Gal, Scott, Willow and Motomama for breaking my 13 year silence on political matters, but this board feels like home to me, the people that use it like family. This subject strikes home, this has felt like my home for some time.

I have the highest respect for all posters, even though at times I may disagree with there statements. I read their posts with interest and often times find their comments enlightened, making me think - and that's a good thing!

Disclaimer: My opinions expressed or comments on this site are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions held by the Valkyrie Riders Cruiser Club.

[Bob E.]

oZ...I certainly meant no disrespect, as I have said.  Your original post started off stating how you like reading the political threads and often learn things.  So it was with that frame of mind that I entered this discussion.  However, I still do not see in what you posted anything that states that the government will decide who your insurance company is...which is what I challenged in the first place...and pretty much where I stopped reading your rather long post.  I've since gone back and read your entire post and can respect some of the points you've made. 

Also, just so you know, the CLASS act portion of the law has subsequently been dropped and the waivers you mentioned are/were temporary to give those employers time to transition usually because of existing contracts with their unions or their insurance companies.  They are not permanent.  And finally, I know Solo1 isn't talking to me, but for anyone else who is interested, here's a snippet I cut from the law that should ease everyone's mind about care being rationed to old people...

‘SEC. 2705. PROHIBITING DISCRIMINATION AGAINST INDIVIDUAL PARTICIPANTS AND BENEFICIARIES BASED ON HEALTH STATUS.
 
‘(a) In General- A group health plan and a health insurance issuer offering group or individual health insurance coverage may not establish rules for eligibility (including continued eligibility) of any individual to enroll under the terms of the plan or coverage based on any of the following health status-related factors in relation to the individual or a dependent of the individual:

‘(1) Health status.

‘(2) Medical condition (including both physical and mental illnesses).

‘(3) Claims experience.

‘(4) Receipt of health care.

‘(5) Medical history.

‘(6) Genetic information.

‘(7) Evidence of insurability (including conditions arising out of acts of domestic violence).

‘( Disability.

‘(9) Any other health status-related factor determined appropriate by the Secretary.


i agree that the things like the Cornhusker kickback and others were egregious and shouldn't have happened.  I think the shortage of doctors is a bit overblown though.  If you think about it, people without coverage are still being seen in ER's.  They just aren't paying for it.  Now they'll just be able to pay for it with insurance.  I'm sure there will be an increase in people seeking preventative care, but I'm not convinced it will be as severe as put forth by some.  Admittedly, I could be wrong though.  Also, I find it kind of ironic that an industry would be lamenting what amounts to about 10% more customers.  As an engineer, I can't believe that we'd be freaking out (at least not in a bad way) if the state all of a sudden started putting out 10% more work.  In fact, we'd be ecstatic.

[oZ]

oZ...I certainly meant no disrespect, as I have said.  Your original post started off stating how you like reading the political threads and often learn things.  So it was with that frame of mind that I entered this discussion.  However, I still do not see in what you posted anything that states that the government will decide who your insurance company is...which is what I challenged in the first place...and pretty much where I stopped reading your rather long post.  I've since gone back and read your entire post and can respect some of the points you've made.  

Also, just so you know, the CLASS act portion of the law has subsequently been dropped and the waivers you mentioned are/were temporary to give those employers time to transition usually because of existing contracts with their unions or their insurance companies.  They are not permanent.  And finally, I know Solo1 isn't talking to me, but for anyone else who is interested, here's a snippet I cut from the law that should ease everyone's mind about care being rationed to old people...

‘SEC. 2705. PROHIBITING DISCRIMINATION AGAINST INDIVIDUAL PARTICIPANTS AND BENEFICIARIES BASED ON HEALTH STATUS.
 
‘(a) In General- A group health plan and a health insurance issuer offering group or individual health insurance coverage may not establish rules for eligibility (including continued eligibility) of any individual to enroll under the terms of the plan or coverage based on any of the following health status-related factors in relation to the individual or a dependent of the individual:

‘(1) Health status.

‘(2) Medical condition (including both physical and mental illnesses).

‘(3) Claims experience.

‘(4) Receipt of health care.

‘(5) Medical history.

‘(6) Genetic information.

‘(7) Evidence of insurability (including conditions arising out of acts of domestic violence).

‘( Disability.

‘(9) Any other health status-related factor determined appropriate by the Secretary.


i agree that the things like the Cornhusker kickback and others were egregious and shouldn't have happened.  I think the shortage of doctors is a bit overblown though.  If you think about it, people without coverage are still being seen in ER's.  They just aren't paying for it.  Now they'll just be able to pay for it with insurance.  I'm sure there will be an increase in people seeking preventative care, but I'm not convinced it will be as severe as put forth by some.  Admittedly, I could be wrong though.  Also, I find it kind of ironic that an industry would be lamenting what amounts to about 10% more customers.  As an engineer, I can't believe that we'd be freaking out (at least not in a bad way) if the state all of a sudden started putting out 10% more work.  In fact, we'd be ecstatic.

Bob, thanks for the reply. Something as large as this bill is it's going to cause concern. There are good facets to the bill,  I like very much such, as something referred to HCAHPS which require hospitals to poll patients to judge the experience, and how they perceived it, we've adopted the practice and have learned much from the experience, surprise, we can improve!

Healthcare in America does need to be addressed, there are problems. Maybe I am prejudice, but with it faults and there are many it may be the best in the world proven by the uber rich coming here from all over the world for care.

Again thanks for the reply, I've often read your posts on other subjects and darn it... you made me think! (O:

*The intent of the HCAHPS* initiative is to provide a standardized survey instrument and data collection methodology for measuring patients' perspectives on hospital care. While many hospitals have collected information on patient satisfaction, prior to HCAHPS there was no national standard for collecting or publicly reporting patients' perspectives of care information that would enable valid comparisons to be made across all hospitals. In order to make "apples to apples" comparisons to support consumer choice, it was necessary to introduce a standard measurement approach: the HCAHPS survey, which is also known as the CAHPS® Hospital Survey, or Hospital CAHPS. HCAHPS is a core set of questions that can be combined with a broader, customized set of hospital-specific items. HCAHPS survey items complement the data hospitals currently collect to support improvements in internal customer services and quality related activities.

[Robert]

The famous line by Nancey Pelosi maybe means more now than it did when she said it. I really wonder who penned the bill and why if even our congress didn't know whats in it????? Who really wrote this, does anyone know? You absolutely know Obama didnt sit up at nights thinking about this and penned his own ideas down in looking to help the American people. Another thought also if we do have a real problem with the economy more so than now like most of the economists are predicting it may be a good thing that at least most will have health care.

Pelosi: we have to pass the health care bill so that you can find out what is in it	powered by Aeva

I am in no way endorsing this health care bill and am inclined to agree with Oz but if you look at Mass. health care which this is patterned after they are having some real problems not the least is the cost.

[solo1]

And finally, I know Solo1 isn't talking to me, but for anyone else who is interested, here's a snippet I cut from the law that should ease everyone's mind about care being rationed to old people... (Quote)

Bob, first, i want to apologize for my debate statement. That was out of line. When I typed that, I was not feeling well due to my recent problems.  My impatience with you got the best of me.

I retired as an associate engineer having come up through the ranks.  I also know that not everything can be quantified to the point that someone (read bureaucracy) cannot interpret it differently.

As a councilman, after retirement, I saw that happen many times and our regulations, laws and requirements were much, much, simpler than Obamacare.

However, I still stand on my original comments.  In a perfect world, no, I wouldn't see rationed care, but this is far from a perfect world.

[Bob E.]

oZ...no doubt, many people fear change and I'm sure there will be some problems to work through as it is implemented. And working through those issues is actually a good thing, provided our reps can work together to solve them.  Some might say "fat chance" of that happening, but that's a failure of conress and not necessarily a failure of the law.  The health care provider and insurance industries are huge and very complicated accounting for a large and growing percentage of our GDP, which is why I pretty much roll my eyes at anyone who decries the number of pages in the bill. There was no way a problem this complicated could have been handled with a 3-page bill as some have suggested...all the while they attack the 3000 page bill for not addressing all of the problems that will be created.  This is also why it is important to keep the facts straight and to correct the misinformation, which is all I was trying to do.  People talk about obamacare being the downfall of America.  But I believe the downfall will be due to the loss of the ability to have an HONEST debate on a whole host of topics.

Robert...we all know (though some don't want to admit it) that Pelosi was referring to all of the misinformation and talking about the public finding out what was really in the bill versus what they were being told about the bill by it's detractors.  I'm getting tired of saying this.  

[Bob E.]

And finally, I know Solo1 isn't talking to me, but for anyone else who is interested, here's a snippet I cut from the law that should ease everyone's mind about care being rationed to old people... (Quote)

Bob, first, i want to apologize for my debate statement. That was out of line. When I typed that, I was not feeling well due to my recent problems.  My impatience with you got the best of me.

I retired as an associate engineer having come up through the ranks.  I also know that not everything can be quantified to the point that someone (read bureaucracy) cannot interpret it differently.

As a councilman, after retirement, I saw that happen many times and our regulations, laws and requirements were much, much, simpler than Obamacare.

However, I still stand on my original comments.  In a perfect world, no, I wouldn't see rationed care, but this is far from a perfect world.

Solo1...thanks for the reply...we're all good.  We all have bad days and I hope your ailments are improving.  You are right in that it isn't a perfect world.  But we can try to make it better.  Some of the things that people complain about the law...things like rationed care...are actually the things that the law attempts to address because they are happening now when insurance drop people when they become expensive.  Also, our country with all of the industries is a big and complicated place with big and complicated problems.  We can't be afraid to tackle problems because it is too complicated, which seems to happen with our representatives.  And like I mentioned to oZ in my previous post, failure to work through those complications is a failure of congress and not necessarily a failure of the law.

[Skinhead]

If you think about it, people without coverage are still being seen in ER's.  They just aren't paying for it.  Now they'll just be able to pay for it with insurance.

And who is going to pay for their insurance??  Who will pay for the insurance of all the poor folks who can't afford it?  The answer is us, the insured and the tax payer.  We currently pay for their care because they get it for free at the emergency room and the cost is passed on to the paying insured patients through inflated charges to cover the cost of the uninsured.

[Skinhead]

Robert...we all know (though some don't want to admit it) that Pelosi was referring to all of the misinformation and talking about the public finding out what was really in the bill versus what they were being told about the bill by it's detractors.  I'm getting tired of saying this.  

We do?  I didn't know this.  Where is the fact that says "Pelosi was referring to all of the misinformation and talking about the public finding out what was really in the bill versus what they were being told about the bill by it's detractors. "

Why wasn't the bill posted for us to review in it's pre-pass form?  Obummer said during his campaign that his administration would conduct business in the light of day and use the internet to post proposed legislation for public review (paraphrasing,not his exact words).  Another one of his many lies.

[f6gal]

You also reference the IPABS and imply that they are the "death panels" that has already been debunked...yet refuses to die.  

Debunked by whom?
IAPB will develop standards to limit private sector medical care... it is their defined role.
[Section 10320(b); section 10320(a)(5)(o)(1)(A)] Beginning January 15, 2015 and every subsequent 2 years the IAPB is given the duty to make “recommendations to slow the growth in national health expenditures . . . that the Secretary [of Health and Human Services] or other Federal agencies can implement administratively.”  IAPB is directed to limit private health care spending so that it is below the rate of medical inflation.
[Section 10304; section 3014(a); section 1890(b)(7)(B)(I)] The Secretary of Health and Human Services is given the power to impose “quality” and “efficiency” measures  on health care providers (hospices, surgical centers, rehab facilities, home health agencies, physicians, hospitals) who are required to report compliance.

Translation: Health care providers will be told by Washington what diagnostic tests and medical care will meet “quality” and “efficiency” standards.  For not only federally funded health care programs, but for privately paid health care and nongovernmental health insurance, as well.  By definition, these “quality" and "efficiency” standards are designed to limit health care expenditures.  If a person and his doctor decide on particular tests or a course of  treatment that government decides is too costly, they will be precluded from perusing those that are contradictory to the imposed standards, even if the patient is willing to pay for it himself.  Effectually, a uniform national standard of care will be imposed; not based on what is best, but merely on reduction of costs.  

In my experience, health care standards of care are meant to set a MINIMUM level of competent care.  However, the standards of care to be imposed by IAPB, who have no medical expertise, are meant to set a MAXIMUM level of care.  You don't see the inherent problem with that?

Yes, I do work in healthcare... and, yes, I do feel threatened.  It's not about left wing or right wing... it's about the obvious flaws in this particular piece of legislation.

[f6gal]

Bob

there is a button for PM

Before you tell someone on a Board they dont know what they are talking about or people lied to them
and I am sure you have no animosity to Oz

Maybe just Maybe give them the courtesy of a PM

Its got nothing to do with caring who likes or dont like you its about showing respect and
hence earning it in return

This poster has no political ax to grind and is speaking of a lifetime of experience in HIS little sector of the health field universe and is a cool dude, besides being one of the fathers of this board

And he expressed that he was not trying to spew what passed as political assasination all winter on this board

I am gonna be riding today ....on my Valkyrie....before the rain gets here

 

and yes I am now guilty of not using that PM button as well  

I wasn't being disrespectful and apologize if it sounded that way.  I was merely telling him that he was misinformed.  And that's the biggest problem with this law.  There is so much information about it that has been generated that people are being manipulated.  I don't see how correcting "facts" that someone posted in a public forum with a response calling out those facts on the same forum is disrespectful.  I never insulted him or called him names or said he was stupid or anything.  I think my past posts should indicate that I don't operate that way.

I tend to agree with Bob on this point.  Though I don't agree with his "correction," I do agree that, since oZ opened the discussion in an open forum, then Bob has a right to respond in the same manner, as long as it is done respectfully.
 
Someone once posted that we had no national debt under a certain president.  I simply responded he needed to check his facts... He lambasted me for correcting him in public.  Kind of the same thing (except I was right... LOL).

[BigAl]

Democratic Heaven is we all get our little noogies for free.

Obama care goes under the scalpal this week.

Supreme Court

I hope it gets incised from our planet.

It is unconstitutional and un- american.

Gov't does not need more control of us, it needs to take a back seat for sure.

[Gear Jammer]

Democratic Heaven is we all get our little noogies for free.

Obama care goes under the scalpal this week.

Supreme Court

I hope it gets incised from our planet.

It is unconstitutional and un- american.

Gov't does not need more control of us, it needs to take a back seat for sure.

+1 BigAl    And I'm sure we're going to hear how this is how the "other" administration wanted the old to die off, and the poor to fend for themselves without any compassion from those mean- spirited rascals on the right.

[Serk]

From a practical standpoint, I'm kind of concerned that if it is correctly found to be unconstitutional, that will remove some of the urgency of returning Obama to civilian life, whereas if they incorrectly find it to be legal, then the urgency of electing someone else so that the law can be dismantled before it causes any more harm will grow higher...

Just something to consider, there's a silver lining either way, IMHO...

[musclehead]

sorry OZ, chin up bro!

Bob, there is a clear majority of people that want this law GONE! I'm only hoping the repulicans have the political fortitude to get 'er done.

There is a clear majority on this board because most of the most active posters are quite conservative, but across the nation, its alot closer to 50-50. And that is mainly because of all of the mis-information that has been and continues to be dumped out there.  I saw a stat that compared ad money spent by groups opposing the law dwarfs money spent supporting the law by about a 5 to 1 margin.  And as a result, you get what we have here...a bunch of people giving reasons for opposing the law, and those reasons have no basis in fact.  The real unfortunate thing is that when someone like me tries to correct those facts, that person is attacked or belittled or whatever, rather than saying, "hmmmm, I didn't know that."  In this thread, I've been called a kool-aid drinker and told I should apologize.  If I'm wrong on my facts, show me where in the law it says what you think it says and I'll acknowledge it.  You might even convince me.

The bottom line is that when the individual details of the law are polled, they are supported by a wide margin.

individual details maybe, but there is NO severability clause. so taken as a whole I have not supported it from day one. it is unconstituitional, it was passed by trickery (deemed as passed) and I hope the court strikes it down.

the CBO just came out with a new 10 years cost estimate 1.7 something trillion. the first estimate was garbage numbers in and garbage numbers out. 900 million my eye.

the whole thing is moving everyone to a single payer, it won't happen over night
but as more and more private insurance firms dive out of the business what entity will be left to supply insurance? the gubmint.

more importantly then that is the massive expansion of the federal government, 157 NEW agencies. all ran as the secretary of health and human services see fit.

I'm not going to attack you or offer the suggestion that you should take the remedy for the kool aid. I'm asking you to look in other places, outside of your comfort zone, and see if the fears we have are real or imagined.