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musclehead
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« Reply #40 on: May 24, 2012, 06:13:21 PM » |
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lever action? my dad's deer gun, a wedding gift from my mom, is a BLR Browning in .243. since it was maufactured in the early 70' made in Belguim. quality stuff  |
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'in the tunnels uptown, the Rats own dream guns him down. the shots echo down them hallways in the night' - the Boss
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cookiedough
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« Reply #41 on: May 25, 2012, 07:39:35 AM » |
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Yah, forgot about the .243 caliber. My uncle had a bolt action, Remington I think, .243 and killed many deer with it. For those skeptical of that caliber effectively killing a deer, it does have plenty of knockdown power. The bullet is faster also than a .270 and flatter trajectory, but not the best gun if in heavy timber since the bullet deflects more so than say a 30-30 in heavier brush. I might be mistaken, but the energy foot lbs. of the .243 is even more so than the .30-30? So many choices, so little dough.  |
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Varmintmist
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« Reply #42 on: May 25, 2012, 09:38:06 AM » |
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maybe because the larger diameter bullet with shorter casing
Not trying to be argumentative, but .308 and 30.06 use the exact same diameter bullets, both are .308 inches in diameter. correct sir! the .308 is the diameter I believe and the 30.06 was a 30 cal developed in 1906. no ryhme or reason in the naming of calibers, a 45-70 I think is a 45 cal bullet in front of 70 grains of black powder. It was Caliber 30 Model 1906 = 30/06. It was 1906 when they went to a spitzer (pointed) bullet over the 30-03 (30 Mod 1903 round nose bullet) which was the first to supplant the 30/40 Krag which was NOT black powder but retained the cal over charge like BP cartridges did. The 45/70 was black powder and was a 45cal over 70gr of bp FYI, not all 30 calibers are .308 EX a 30 Mauser is 7.63mm and a .308 is 7.62mm |
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« Last Edit: May 25, 2012, 09:41:15 AM by Varmintmist »
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However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.
Churchill
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Jess Tolbirt
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« Reply #44 on: May 25, 2012, 10:47:53 AM » |
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now i like the sh1t out of those |
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Valkyrie member # 23084
Started out on old forum on day one but lost my member number.
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The Anvil
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« Reply #45 on: May 25, 2012, 03:19:46 PM » |
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maybe because the larger diameter bullet with shorter casing
Not trying to be argumentative, but .308 and 30.06 use the exact same diameter bullets, both are .308 inches in diameter. [/quote correct sir! the .308 is the diameter I believe and the 30.06 was a 30 cal developed in 1906. no ryhme or reason in the naming of calibers, a 45-70 I think is a 45 cal bullet in front of 70 grains of black powder. That is correct. That's the old school way of rating cartridges. That's how you know that 30-06 is an antiquated design. |
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Boxer rebellion, the Holy Child. They all pay their rent.
But none together can testify to the rhythm of a road well bent.
Saddles and zip codes, passports and gates, the Jones' keep.
In August the water is trickling, in April it's furious deep.
1997 Valk Standard, Red and White.
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musclehead
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« Reply #46 on: May 25, 2012, 03:57:00 PM » |
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maybe because the larger diameter bullet with shorter casing
Not trying to be argumentative, but .308 and 30.06 use the exact same diameter bullets, both are .308 inches in diameter. [/quote correct sir! the .308 is the diameter I believe and the 30.06 was a 30 cal developed in 1906. no ryhme or reason in the naming of calibers, a 45-70 I think is a 45 cal bullet in front of 70 grains of black powder. wow your agreeing with me  I think I'll buy a lottery ticket  That is correct. That's the old school way of rating cartridges. That's how you know that 30-06 is an antiquated design. |
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'in the tunnels uptown, the Rats own dream guns him down. the shots echo down them hallways in the night' - the Boss
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NW roller
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« Reply #47 on: May 25, 2012, 04:15:48 PM » |
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Your choice. What do you want it for. I have 30-30,8mm mauser,30-06, 308, I f I had to pick one all around gun it would fall between the 30-06 and 308. I personal like my m-1 garande. My lever action savage 99C is a good gun it is .308.
I suggest you try a few out and PICK WHAT YOU SHOOT BEST. It does you no good to have a gun you shoot alright in a big caliber but if you came down a few like to a .270 or .223 and shoot them GREAT AND DEAD ON THAT IS WHAT YOU GO WITH. a GUNIS ONLY A NOISE MAKER IF YOU CANNOT HIT WHAT YOU ARE AIMING AT.
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Those who won't listen must feel. David B
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Varmintmist
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« Reply #48 on: May 25, 2012, 06:58:51 PM » |
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Old, not antiquated, there is a difference.
old = originating years ago: made, produced, or originating many years ago and still in existence
antiquated = ancient or old-fashioned: out of date, old-fashioned, or in need of updating or replacing
30-06 is still here because it works, and works well.
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However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.
Churchill
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Jess from VA
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« Reply #49 on: May 25, 2012, 07:29:13 PM » |
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30-06 is still here because it works, and works well.
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The Anvil
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« Reply #50 on: May 25, 2012, 07:43:23 PM » |
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Old, not antiquated, there is a difference.
old = originating years ago: made, produced, or originating many years ago and still in existence
antiquated = ancient or old-fashioned: out of date, old-fashioned, or in need of updating or replacing
30-06 is still here because it works, and works well.
.50 cal muzzleloader works well too when you take into account the inherent limitations but it's still antiquated. What has kept the 30-06 relevant is the same thing that made it obsolete in the military as a battle rifle cartridge; new powders. I have nothing against the cart, but it IS relatively ancient. |
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Boxer rebellion, the Holy Child. They all pay their rent.
But none together can testify to the rhythm of a road well bent.
Saddles and zip codes, passports and gates, the Jones' keep.
In August the water is trickling, in April it's furious deep.
1997 Valk Standard, Red and White.
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RP#62
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« Reply #51 on: May 25, 2012, 07:53:39 PM » |
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It all depends. Is this for zombies or space aliens, or either one. Are these the fast zombies that can run and climb, or the slow night of the living dead zombies?
according to the zombie survival guide zombies can't climb. fast zombies and zombies that climb are an invention of hollywood I was thinking the I am Legend zombies - I guess they're technically not zombies though, they're . . .mutants. -RP |
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The Anvil
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« Reply #52 on: May 25, 2012, 08:02:30 PM » |
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I think it was at this year's SHOT show, someone was displaying a scout rifle chambered for .223 that accepted STANAG mags. Including the 60 round box mags and snail drums. Bolt action with 60+ round cap? Why not?
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Boxer rebellion, the Holy Child. They all pay their rent.
But none together can testify to the rhythm of a road well bent.
Saddles and zip codes, passports and gates, the Jones' keep.
In August the water is trickling, in April it's furious deep.
1997 Valk Standard, Red and White.
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musclehead
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« Reply #53 on: May 25, 2012, 08:27:58 PM » |
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Old, not antiquated, there is a difference.
old = originating years ago: made, produced, or originating many years ago and still in existence
antiquated = ancient or old-fashioned: out of date, old-fashioned, or in need of updating or replacing
30-06 is still here because it works, and works well.
maybe the adjective should be "venerable" still a good round and very popular. |
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'in the tunnels uptown, the Rats own dream guns him down. the shots echo down them hallways in the night' - the Boss
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musclehead
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« Reply #54 on: May 25, 2012, 08:30:28 PM » |
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It all depends. Is this for zombies or space aliens, or either one. Are these the fast zombies that can run and climb, or the slow night of the living dead zombies?
according to the zombie survival guide zombies can't climb. fast zombies and zombies that climb are an invention of hollywood I was thinking the I am Legend zombies - I guess they're technically not zombies though, they're . . .mutants. -RP they were infected, same as other zombies. hollywood doesn't have a good grip on what constitutes a zombie  I am legend, good flick. |
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'in the tunnels uptown, the Rats own dream guns him down. the shots echo down them hallways in the night' - the Boss
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Varmintmist
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« Reply #55 on: May 25, 2012, 09:32:17 PM » |
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Old, not antiquated, there is a difference.
old = originating years ago: made, produced, or originating many years ago and still in existence
antiquated = ancient or old-fashioned: out of date, old-fashioned, or in need of updating or replacing
30-06 is still here because it works, and works well.
.50 cal muzzleloader works well too when you take into account the inherent limitations but it's still antiquated. What has kept the 30-06 relevant is the same thing that made it obsolete in the military as a battle rifle cartridge; new powders. I have nothing against the cart, but it IS relatively ancient. Actually it was weight. You got ALMOST the performance of the 06 in a lighter, smaller package. That smaller cart. could be chambered in a smaller lighter action A bonus was that with a more straight walled case and sharper neck Winchester developed one of the "inherently accurate" cartridges (doesnt mean its always better in whatever platform, just has the potential like the 222Remington). IMR4895 is the ball powder that was used in the 06, guess what the 308 (mil spec) was loaded with. Remington/Dupont got the ammo contract so it was loaded with Dupont IMR4895, the powder that was developed for the 30-06. FYI A 54cal roundball carrys energy downrange better than a 50, but you are correct that it is antiquated when you are talking black powder. They reached the apex of their game 200 years ago. The new inlines that shoot smokeless, under jacketed bullets are a single shot, componant based modern rifle The 06, even loaded to specs from the 30's, is still right there with all the others. There are no limitations that are not realized by any other cartridge in the class. |
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However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.
Churchill
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The Anvil
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« Reply #56 on: May 26, 2012, 03:11:35 AM » |
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Actually it was weight.
Actually it was powder. New powders meant you could use less resulting in the same performance making the necessary case size smaller and lighter. |
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Boxer rebellion, the Holy Child. They all pay their rent.
But none together can testify to the rhythm of a road well bent.
Saddles and zip codes, passports and gates, the Jones' keep.
In August the water is trickling, in April it's furious deep.
1997 Valk Standard, Red and White.
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Sodbuster
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« Reply #57 on: May 26, 2012, 04:45:50 AM » |
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Old, not antiquated, there is a difference.
old = originating years ago: made, produced, or originating many years ago and still in existence
antiquated = ancient or old-fashioned: out of date, old-fashioned, or in need of updating or replacing
30-06 is still here because it works, and works well.
.... and you can buy a box of 30-06 ammo in just about any hardware store, gas station, etc. But, I still like my .270 win  5 rounds in the size of a quarter @ 100 yds !! |
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VRCC # 30938 '99 Std. - Black & Silver - "Spirit Horse" Dear God, Seriously .... Thanks for creating beer. You rock !!  |
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Varmintmist
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« Reply #58 on: May 26, 2012, 08:25:23 AM » |
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Actually it was weight.
Actually it was powder. New powders meant you could use less resulting in the same performance making the necessary case size smaller and lighter. NO, it was weight. Remington/Dupont got the military contract and they used the SAME powder (IMR4895) in the 7.62x51 that they used in the 7.62x63. You got SIMILAR performance in a smaller package (from straighting the case wall and sharpining the shoulder RE P.O. Ackley) They meant the cartridge was lighter, the actions were smaller, thus lighter, the magazines were lighter ect ect. If it was a new powder, just what was that powder? 4895 has changed a little over the years, but there was no great jump in the early 50's. The cartridges are in the same class, however since the 06 has more volume you can push things FASTER than the 308. The same powders used in loading 308 go into the 06. Bullet Weight (Gr.) Manufacturer Powder Bullet Diam. C.O.L. Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure First 308 150 GR. NOS BT IMR IMR 4895 .308" 2.800" 42.6 2631 42,300 PSI 47.3C 2920 57,700 PSI Next 06 150 GR. NOS BT IMR IMR 4895 .308" 3.250" 49.0 2856 49,400 PSI 53.0 3009 56,700 PSI 06 max pressure lower, and more velocity http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp |
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However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.
Churchill
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The Anvil
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« Reply #59 on: May 26, 2012, 11:43:43 AM » |
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Actually it was weight.
Actually it was powder. New powders meant you could use less resulting in the same performance making the necessary case size smaller and lighter. NO, it was weight. Remington/Dupont got the military contract and they used the SAME powder (IMR4895) in the 7.62x51 that they used in the 7.62x63. You got SIMILAR performance in a smaller package (from straighting the case wall and sharpining the shoulder RE P.O. Ackley) They meant the cartridge was lighter, the actions were smaller, thus lighter, the magazines were lighter ect ect. If it was a new powder, just what was that powder? 4895 has changed a little over the years, but there was no great jump in the early 50's. The cartridges are in the same class, however since the 06 has more volume you can push things FASTER than the 308. The same powders used in loading 308 go into the 06. Bullet Weight (Gr.) Manufacturer Powder Bullet Diam. C.O.L. Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure First 308 150 GR. NOS BT IMR IMR 4895 .308" 2.800" 42.6 2631 42,300 PSI 47.3C 2920 57,700 PSI Next 06 150 GR. NOS BT IMR IMR 4895 .308" 3.250" 49.0 2856 49,400 PSI 53.0 3009 56,700 PSI 06 max pressure lower, and more velocity http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.aspNo, it's new powders that are giving 7.62X51mm similar performance numbers to the old military issue 30-06. Is there a size and weight benefit to the 7.62X51mm Vs. the 30-06? Yeah, some. But that is not what MADE THE 30-06 OBSOLETE as a battle rifle cartridge. That was powder advancements. There was never any reason to look back because before long the 30-06 was being outperformed when all factors were weighed. Now, the 30-06 case can be (and is) loaded with newer powders boosting performance even further. But it's more than is strictly necessary in a battle rifle and the increase in recoil that comes with adding power and bullet weight makes it less practical for a precision rifle that requires quick follow up shots (i.e. a sniper rifle). In fact even 7.62X51mm is overpowered for the majority of combat work. And there are serious issues with overpowering and maintaining stability and matching barrels and twist rates of certain bullets and weights etc. which makes the larger case of the 30-06 of no benefit at all in most cases. If the military needs to go bigger they just go .50BMG Bottom line is; the 30-06 is obsolete. That's why the M14, M24 and SASS sniper platforms all use the 7.62X51mm and not 30-06. Because as I said, it's obsolete, antiquated, whatever. Okay, it's heavier too. But that's not the reason. The difference in weight between 7.62X51mm and 30-06 is not like the difference between 7.61X51mm and 5.56mm. THAT decision was based primarily on mission loading. |
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Boxer rebellion, the Holy Child. They all pay their rent.
But none together can testify to the rhythm of a road well bent.
Saddles and zip codes, passports and gates, the Jones' keep.
In August the water is trickling, in April it's furious deep.
1997 Valk Standard, Red and White.
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RP#62
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« Reply #60 on: May 26, 2012, 11:47:58 AM » |
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It all depends. Is this for zombies or space aliens, or either one. Are these the fast zombies that can run and climb, or the slow night of the living dead zombies?
according to the zombie survival guide zombies can't climb. fast zombies and zombies that climb are an invention of hollywood I was thinking the I am Legend zombies - I guess they're technically not zombies though, they're . . .mutants. -RP they were infected, same as other zombies. hollywood doesn't have a good grip on what constitutes a zombie I am legend, good flick. So the I am Legend zombies weren't real? -RP |
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Patrick
Member
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VRCC 4474
Largo Florida
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« Reply #61 on: May 26, 2012, 04:03:25 PM » |
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well, actually it was the weight.. And then being able to go to short actions rather than the long action.. Weight [and range] is also what brought in the .223 .. Unless you've had to pack and carry that stuff , you may not realize what a difference it makes..
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The Anvil
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« Reply #62 on: May 26, 2012, 04:09:28 PM » |
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well, actually it was the weight.. And then being able to go to short actions rather than the long action.. Weight [and range] is also what brought in the .223 .. Unless you've had to pack and carry that stuff , you may not realize what a difference it makes..
Which is why the Russians got in on it too with the 5.45X39. Staying under a 10 kilo limit here's how the numbers work out... M14 7.62×51mm 393 gr (25.4g) 20 rd mag @ 0.68 kg 14 mags 280 rdsM16 5.56×45mm 183 gr (11.8g) 20 rd mag @ 0.3 kg 33 mags 660 rdsAK-47 7.62×39mm 281 gr (18.2g) 30 rd mag @ 0.92 kg 10 mags 300 rdsThat's why the Russian standard service cartridge is now the 5.45X39mm. But the difference in weight between the .308 and 30-06 is minimal, especially compared to the numbers you see above. |
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« Last Edit: May 26, 2012, 04:25:41 PM by The Anvil »
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Boxer rebellion, the Holy Child. They all pay their rent.
But none together can testify to the rhythm of a road well bent.
Saddles and zip codes, passports and gates, the Jones' keep.
In August the water is trickling, in April it's furious deep.
1997 Valk Standard, Red and White.
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Hoser
Member
Posts: 5844
child of the sixties VRCC 17899
Auburn, Kansas
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« Reply #63 on: May 26, 2012, 05:37:41 PM » |
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I think the .308 replaced the 30-06 because it was adopted as the official NATO round. Hoser
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I don't want a pickle, just wanna ride my motor sickle  [img width=300 height=233]http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/ |
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musclehead
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« Reply #64 on: May 26, 2012, 06:44:21 PM » |
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It all depends. Is this for zombies or space aliens, or either one. Are these the fast zombies that can run and climb, or the slow night of the living dead zombies?
according to the zombie survival guide zombies can't climb. fast zombies and zombies that climb are an invention of hollywood I was thinking the I am Legend zombies - I guess they're technically not zombies though, they're . . .mutants. -RP they were infected, same as other zombies. hollywood doesn't have a good grip on what constitutes a zombie I am legend, good flick. So the I am Legend zombies weren't real? -RP I've never seen a zombie that fast, and doing parkour? I'd say they are mutants too. (well CGI anyway) |
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'in the tunnels uptown, the Rats own dream guns him down. the shots echo down them hallways in the night' - the Boss
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X Ring
Member
Posts: 3626
VRCC #27389, VRCCDS #204
The Landmass Between Mobile And New Orleans
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« Reply #65 on: May 26, 2012, 07:08:30 PM » |
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I think the .308 replaced the 30-06 because it was adopted as the official NATO round. Hoser
Actually the US Military pushed NATO into adopting the 7.62x51mm M80 round. Britain wanted to go to a .276 round iirc. A few years after the 7.62mm NATO round was adopted NATO wide, the US Military jumped to the 5.56x45mm M193 round. It wasn't until the SS109 round was developed in Europe in the early 80s that European forces started adopting 5.56mm rifles as their primary rifle. Marty |
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People are more passionately opposed to wearing fur than leather because it's safer to harass rich women than bikers.  |
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Varmintmist
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« Reply #66 on: May 27, 2012, 02:22:49 AM » |
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thus lighter, the magazines were lighter ect ect.
No, it's new powders that are giving 7.62X51mm similar performance numbers to the old military issue 30-06. Wrong. The ball powder is IMR4895, that is what is used in 7.62x51. It has to be the same across the board so that it will function in everything made for it. Same pressure, same velocity ect. In the civilian world that is a different story. You can load with whatever you want, of course you can load the 06 that way also and get better preformance. Pull up any of the load data that I linked for you. You will also note that you cannot go to a 200+gr bullet in the 308, it cant handle it. If you are trying to compare a handloaded 308 with a M2 ball 06, then yep, the 308 can catch the o6, until you handload the 06. |
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However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.
Churchill
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Patrick
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VRCC 4474
Largo Florida
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« Reply #67 on: May 27, 2012, 06:32:40 AM » |
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Regarding powders, military loads have gone through several different powders in 7.62 and 5.56.. Its been a long time so maybe they finally have found what they want to have stuck to it for a while..
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The Anvil
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« Reply #68 on: May 27, 2012, 06:50:55 AM » |
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The ball powder is IMR4895, that is what is used in 7.62x51. It has to be the same across the board so that it will function in everything made for it. Same pressure, same velocity ect.
In the civilian world that is a different story. You can load with whatever you want, of course you can load the 06 that way also and get better preformance. Pull up any of the load data that I linked for you.
You will also note that you cannot go to a 200+gr bullet in the 308, it cant handle it.
If you are trying to compare a handloaded 308 with a M2 ball 06, then yep, the 308 can catch the o6, until you handload the 06.
I'm just going to have to accept the fact that you're not paying attention to what I've been telling you so I'll leave it at that. |
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Boxer rebellion, the Holy Child. They all pay their rent.
But none together can testify to the rhythm of a road well bent.
Saddles and zip codes, passports and gates, the Jones' keep.
In August the water is trickling, in April it's furious deep.
1997 Valk Standard, Red and White.
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Serk
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« Reply #69 on: May 27, 2012, 08:39:22 AM » |
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I did some research on the matter, and it seems that the REAL reason the military switched from 30.06 to 7.62x51 was purely to irritate Anvil... |
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Never ask a geek 'Why?',just nod your head and slowly back away...  IBA# 22107 VRCC# 7976 VRCCDS# 226 1998 Valkyrie Standard 2008 Gold Wing Taxation is theft. μολὼν λαβέ |
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Jess Tolbirt
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« Reply #70 on: May 27, 2012, 08:45:24 AM » |
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LOL
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Valkyrie member # 23084
Started out on old forum on day one but lost my member number.
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Patrick
Member
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VRCC 4474
Largo Florida
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« Reply #71 on: May 27, 2012, 09:12:17 AM » |
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ROTFLMAO,, thats good research..
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The Anvil
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« Reply #72 on: May 27, 2012, 09:57:30 AM » |
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I did some research on the matter, and it seems that the REAL reason the military switched from 30.06 to 7.62x51 was purely to irritate Anvil... I was pretty sure that was the reason for everything that annoys me. |
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Boxer rebellion, the Holy Child. They all pay their rent.
But none together can testify to the rhythm of a road well bent.
Saddles and zip codes, passports and gates, the Jones' keep.
In August the water is trickling, in April it's furious deep.
1997 Valk Standard, Red and White.
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