Group ride accident today

[jer0177]

I went on a group ride today with a group of guys that I have never ridden in a group with before.  One of the riders is a Valkyrie rider, but was on his M109 today, and I have ridden with him before, but most of the rest of the guys were new acquaintances as of this morning. 

We had no group ride safety discussion, no destination or route discussion or signal discussion, but as a new member to the group, I didn't feel it was my place to bring this up - I wish now that I had, and if I ride with these guys again, there will be one.

The group leader was the guy on the M109, and I requested to bring up the rear as I feel my riding and technical skills are sufficient to resolve any issues that may arise along the way, as long as they are resolvable road-side, but there was another group member who preferred the tail-gunner spot and his bike is more easily noticeable (Yellow Goldwing), so I was 2nd to last.  In front of me was a rider who I heard later had never been in a group ride before, and in front of him was a friend of his.

This is where things went badly.  We were turning into a roundabout in a town square to head out the other side when the rider in front of me lost control of his bike and hit the rear of the bike in front of him.  I have watched the video (GoPro was on the bike and recording) dozens of times and cannot determine exactly what happened, but at the end of it, the rider 2 in front of me wasn't able to continue the ride as his clutch lever was snapped off and his license plate ripped from the bike.  He also showed signs of abdominal discomfort, and an ankle injury, but refused medical treatment.  The rider responsible for the accident was not injured, however, chose not to continue the ride.

Here is the video:

Accident on the way to Johnstown	powered by Aeva

My point here guys and gals is that when you're riding in a group, don't forgo the safety discussions, even if you are new and don't feel it is your place.  If people in the group give you flack for having a safety discussion, it may be a wise decision to ride separate from that group.

[Fritz The Cat]

This is why I don't do group rides. Looks like the guy in the rear had a throttle control problem or target fixation.

[jer0177]

The best I can come up with is lack of experience, throttle control problem and target fixation all rolled into one.

That's the other reason I prefer to run tail-gunner.  Nobody behind me.

[BigAl]

Glad it was slow speed accident,

that was rather a weird little deal.

The legs in the air thing brings into play, either inexperience or lack of concentration.

Lets' go with concentration.

Group rides are fine.

[BigAl]

Why did the guy in front of him suddenly slow, maybe he was the culprit,

[BF]

Why did the guy in front of him suddenly slow, maybe he was the culprit,

Was thinkin' the same thing.....sorta, kinda.  Looks more to me like the guy in front of you decided to roll on the throttle when suddenly he figured out the guy in front of him wasn't.  Looks like he couldn't figure out what to do either.....hit the brake, swerve left, swerve right, put feet down.....oh $h!t.  

Was the guy in front of you a newbie? 

[jer0177]

Was the guy in front of you a newbie? 

I'm not certain about his riding experience, but heard after the accident that he had never ridden in a group before.  There were other things that I saw prior to the accident that lead me to believe that he wasn't very experienced, and my girlfriend did talk to him and he hasn't had a safety course yet.

[Jess from VA]

The guy doing the hitting does not know how to use the brakes, your feet are not brakes.  You hit a guy from behind it's your fault, period.

At least he left his own bike laying there and went to help the guy he knocked down first thing. 

[bscrive]

I have been on many group rides, some consisting of almost 2000 riders.  I always assess the people who are riding around me and if I think there will be a problem I change positions.  The two guys there need a lot more experience in riding let alone doing it in a group.

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

I have been on many group rides, some consisting of almost 2000 riders.  I always assess the people who are riding around me and if I think there will be a problem I change positions.  The two guys there need a lot more experience in riding let alone doing it in a group.

I agree.

[Russell Rice]

I really liked how far the tail gunner rode past the accident.
Good thing you had your camera rolling.
Great planning on your part, staying back far enough to avoid that mess and stopping where no other cars could hit the down riders

[cookiedough]

Yah, good job on stopping and putting your bike in the behind to block potential oncoming cars in those terrible roundabouts.  More and more roundabouts are being installed in my area and they claim they work better but I am really skeptical seeing as how some fly by there without looking going way too fast while other (mostly older folks) come to near a complete stop and go like 5 mph thru the roundabouts which both causes accidents.

Looks like the guy from behind went too fast and didn't use the brakes could have easily stopped if just used his brakes plus guy in front was putzing way too slow also.

I don't do a lot of group rides and I have even came up on the rider in front too fast especially nearing a corner while the driver in front slows down way too much as compared to me and I have to hit the brakes much harder than I would normally have to just to avoid clipping his rear end of his bike in front.

There just is way too many levels of cycle drivers abilities and some drive way too crazy while others drive like a granny, best to give tons of following distances between the cycle in front of you. 

[f6gal]

Here's what I saw and MHO of what happened.  It looks like the guy in the rear was riding with his feet on the highway pegs; a terrible riding position in town... you can't downshift or use your rear brake.  When the bike in front of him slowed more than expected, he realized his predicament, panicked and fixated on the other bike.  I think the feet in the air was an attempt to put his feet where they belonged in the first place. 

It doesn't matter how much the guy in front slowed, the rider behind should be in control of his bike and be able to stop.... what if a kid ran out and the front bike had to fully brake?

[Rio Wil]

Looks to me that the guy in the back got his front wheel tangled with the bike in front of him......couldn't turn the wheel to the left to maintain balance,  feet came off the pegs to aid in balancing but the bike was too far gone to stay upright.

[Mr. Nuts]

Awesome video! Good job of recording it and of not getting dragged into it. A perfect motorcycle training video.

Lots of things going wrong here due to inexperience and lack of training. I downloaded it and watched it at 25% speed to analyze it better.

1: Classic accordian or bungee effect which is the number one cause of group ride accidents like this.

https://www.ridelikeapro.com/articles/156-grouprides

2. Poor riding skills. The rider on the left demonstrates his poor skills by dragging his feet while still moving. That would be all I needed to see to leave his area. The rear rider has his feet on the pegs, but fails to use rear brake and clutch to stay in the friction zone, and to turn head and eyes towards his intended direction of travel. If he were executing this properly he would have been riding rear brake(brake light would have been on), applying throttle, slipping clutch, and looking well out into the turn. Instead (no brake light) he focuses on the rider in front, realizes that he is closing too fast, and that the radius of his turn is insufficient. He panics as he realizes he will hit the bike in front. Instinctively his feet come off the pegs robbing him of the ability to use any back brake. He paddles like a duck hoping that will slow him down or allow him to regain balance but it just makes things worse. He forgets he can just pull in the clutch.  Finally he seals his fate and grabs the front brake too hard (brake light comes on) and the bike goes from an insufficient right lean to vertical and continues on finally falling on the left side. Front brake provides the majority of stopping power on a bike in a straight line stop, but when applied suddenly and improperly during a turn like this, it will pull you to the ground like a magnet. I suspect he rams the front bike from behind but I can't see that. Both riders high side, but the front bike more violently. This is the most violent kind of fall and serious injury is likely even at slow speeds (google "motorcycle high side" if you don't know what this is)

3. Target fixation.  Don't look at anything you don't want to hit or leave paint on. He should have been looking where he wanted to go instead of where he didn't. Easy to say, hard to do without a lot of practice.

4. Lack of speed control, not looking through the turn, lack of counter steering, and throttle control.  MSF teaches skills like Slow, Look, Press, Roll. Under 15mph handlebar steering is used while counter-steering is used at over 15 mph. These skills would have helped these riders.

I highly suggest the MSF advanced rider course at the minimum, and I love Jerry "Motorman" Palladino's Ride Like A Pro training videos. None of this was necessary with a little training, practice,  and awareness.

P.S. I wouldn't ride with the yellow Goldwing rider either. He dragged both feet like boat anchors for the last 30 feet of his stop. This foot dragging is a sure sign of a poorly trained rider and someone you should never be in front of. It took him a LONG time to bring that Goldwing in for a landing. His brake light (and lack thereof for a long ways is another strong clue). Part of being a safe group rider IMHO is being able to observe and quickly determine who is a good rider and and who is a danger to themselves and others.  

[Chrisj CMA]

I agree with F6Gal.  Additionally I think he is a "back braker"  when you are scared of the front brake and your feet are not near the back brake, all you can do is the Fred Flinstone (feet on the ground), which didnt work out well.

Since I was taken out by a back braker as well its something I am ultra sensitive to, I look even when Im in my truck and I se so many bikes slowing at a redlight and hands never toush the front brake. 

I wont ride next to a back braker if I can help it

[solo1]

Looks like a number of things.  Too close,  target fixation, no countersteering, and ultimately just plain panic and giving up.

[Jabba]

That gut was a TOTAL NOOB.  My opinion only... he was accellerating, and turning at the same time... and went too fast to turn enough.  This both made him run up on... and unable to avoid his buddy in front of him. 

He was too inexperienced to simply pull in the clutch to slow.

Ask Squealy how that works... 

And the tail gunner... should have protected the group.

We have safety briefs whenever we have more than 3.  There is 3 of us that ride together a lot.  And we don't even talk about it any more.  Everyone KNOWS their spot.

Jabba

[old2soon]

I went on a C M A ride little over a year sgo and i was riding just ahead of the sweeper for just that very reason. On last years 9/11 ride people insisted on getting next to me instead of staying in a staggered formation. We have a poker run here called Dogs off the leash. 4 of the 5 card stops are in bars/taverns and i do not attend any more. I'm not an expert but i know or have a good idea on how to stay out of trouble. When i was motocrossing what the second rider did we called W F O. Difference was-we was on dirt. RIDE SAFE.

[jer0177]

I really liked how far the tail gunner rode past the accident.
Good thing you had your camera rolling.
Great planning on your part, staying back far enough to avoid that mess and stopping where no other cars could hit the down riders

I feel that I was prepared to ride tail-gunner.  My mom has been an EMT since she was 18, and even though I have never served in that capacity, I feel that quite a bit of her "calm under fire" has rubbed off on me, and I wasn't sure about the mechanical capacities of the other riders, but I know mine, and I can jerry-rig just about anything to work again, along with the plethora of goodies I have in the left saddlebag to repair things.  That's why one of the first things I installed on the Valk when I got it was 4-way flashers.  Very disappointed at Honda for not including that on most of their bikes.

As I told Oss - keep the camera rolling all the time - you never know when something crazy will happen in front of you.

Here's what I saw and MHO of what happened.  It looks like the guy in the rear was riding with his feet on the highway pegs; a terrible riding position in town... you can't downshift or use your rear brake.  When the bike in front of him slowed more than expected, he realized his predicament, panicked and fixated on the other bike.  I think the feet in the air was an attempt to put his feet where they belonged in the first place. 

It doesn't matter how much the guy in front slowed, the rider behind should be in control of his bike and be able to stop.... what if a kid ran out and the front bike had to fully brake?

His feet were on his rider pegs, not highway pegs (it's a sportster) - the feet went into the air in the panic maneuvers he tried to pull off.

Looks like a number of things.  Too close,  target fixation, no countersteering, and ultimately just plain panic and giving up.

I agree with all of these as well.

I went on a C M A ride little over a year sgo and i was riding just ahead of the sweeper for just that very reason. On last years 9/11 ride people insisted on getting next to me instead of staying in a staggered formation. We have a poker run here called Dogs off the leash. 4 of the 5 card stops are in bars/taverns and i do not attend any more. I'm not an expert but i know or have a good idea on how to stay out of trouble. When i was motocrossing what the second rider did we called W F O. Difference was-we was on dirt. RIDE SAFE.

I'm leery of riding in "poker runs" that use bars as well, drinking and riding DO NOT MIX.

[musclehead]

The best I can come up with is lack of experience, throttle control problem and target fixation all rolled into one.

That's the other reason I prefer to run tail-gunner.  Nobody behind me.

your analysis looks right. the bike causing the accident was too hot pulling out from the stop and fixated on the bike in front. he barely applied the brakes and was too upright into the turn before impact.

[BF]

His feet were on his rider pegs, not highway pegs (it's a sportster) - the feet went into the air in the panic maneuvers he tried to pull off.

"It's a Sportster".  Well, that explains it.  Pretty much every noobs starter Harley.     Dude needs to take his MSF course before he kills himself.....or somebody else. 

[Russell Rice]

Looking at the video again frame by frame ......... It looks like the rear end was coming from under  the back rider about 2-3 foot in front of the cross walk. I think the pot hole in the cross walk caused the rider to twist the wick and he lost the traction on the paint for the cross walk. His left foot is off the peg at the very first hint of loss of traction. play the video again but this time hit play and then pause and you will see what I am talking about.
lack of experience is the cause of this very avoidable accident.

[NCGhostrider]

Group rides do bother me for all the reasons stated.  I prefer to be at the back so I can see what is going on.   For people that haven't been in group rides, it take a lot more attention, and sight seeing is pretty much out.  

Whenever I see the MC clubs riding side by side down the highway, I wonder how they do it sometimes.   I guess I am too skiddish to do it, and I have been riding since I was 12 or 13...can't remember 30 plus years back.

That being said, we had a great group ride in NM over the Memorial Day weekend, and I would do it again.

Craig
NcGhostrider
99 I/S

[john]

 panic                 
                            bad                joojoo

[fudgie]

Looks to me that the guy in the back got his front wheel tangled with the bike in front of him......couldn't turn the wheel to the left to maintain balance,  feet came off the pegs to aid in balancing but the bike was too far gone to stay upright.

+1

[fudgie]

I have been on many group rides, some consisting of almost 2000 riders.  I always assess the people who are riding around me and if I think there will be a problem I change positions.  The two guys there need a lot more experience in riding let alone doing it in a group.

Changing positions causes lots of problems in group riding. Why change position in front of another rider?

[PA_1999Valk]

I'm the M109R Rider that led the group.  With the exception of the Sportster Rider, the son of one of the other riders, and Jer077 I've ridden with the other 6 guys many times.  One of the guys since the late 60's.  This was a test ride for Saturday when I normally led 15 - 25 bikes out to Johnstown.  Today we had 15 bikes with a black GoldWing Trike that I could barely see.  I had no problem seeing the Yellow GoldWing on Friday.

We did have a safety meeting today before we pulled out.  I was able to relay potential road problems gained from the test ride on Friday.

Carl

[BigAl]

Controls are our friends.

Learn to use them.

Front and back brake always use them together.

If you are not doing this, see video.

Fixation is a learned habit, if you cannot break the habit, see video above.

Keep riding the thing and most likely you can ride it out.

Unless your stuck in the hood of a Buick or SUV. Then always get a tag number before you pass out.

All these things are useless unless you employ them all the time.

[sugerbear]

there's a lot of black tracks going through that corner. looks like the guy got into something "gooy" that the other tracks didn't go through.
possible the tire slipped?
put his feet down to catch himself?

frame by frame at 3 sec.