Hydrolock avoided!!

[Scott from FL, now in Maine]

I ride a 99 standard with 35K miles. Life has been busy so riding has been on the back burner unfortunately. 2 weeks ago I had my first indication that the petcock wasn't functioning properly (was riding for many miles before I realized I still had the petcock in the off postion). I plan to replace the petcock right away, but I also know that one of the float has to be leaking for the hydrolock to happen. Today I went to start my Lady and "Clunk"!!!! I knew what had happened right away!. After a little effort to clear the fuel in the cylinder Still not sure which cylinder has the problem on the left bank) the bike started right up.

But I now have a problem with the way it is running. at least one cylinder (probably the one that was flooded) seems to be trying to flood all the time. My guess is the float is still stuck and flooding the cylinder with fuel. If I hold the throttle on at about 3000 rpm you can here some intermittant stuttering in the left bank and after about 1 min the bike slowly drops in rpm and shutsdown. It is then difficult to restart unless you let it set a few minutes.

What I am looking for is the opinions of the people here. I have gotten great advice before!!
If my diagnosis is correct, will it be possible to remove the offending flow bowl without pulling the carbs? And if so will I be able to clean the needle seat in this way to get the float working properly?
Is there something I should try first? Any tips on identifying which cyclinder is the culprit?

All the exhaust pipes are getting hot so checking that doesn't give me a clue. At this time I think it might be the number 2 cyclinder.

One last note. This last winter I pulled the carb bank and did a rebuild and changed the slow jets to 38's. She has been running great so far this season altho I have only done about 400 miles this year.
Thanks in advance! I will be watching closely for replies!

[Patrick]

Without looking, I think we went thru this before..
How can you have a fuel-lock and not know which hole has the problem?? But,, that carburetor is the one I would work on.. Yes, the offending chamber/bowl can be removed..
But, from what you now describe, it seems like you may also have a petcock or vacuum problem..

[Valker]

Had a float stick once. I whacked the snot out of an engine guard with a rubber mallet. Unstuck.

[old grouch]

Try tapping each float bowl several times firmly with the handle of a large screwdriver.  Might dislodge whatever is holding the needle open.

[Scott from FL, now in Maine]

Patrick, Normally I would agree with you, but in this case I removed all the plugs on the left bank, hit the started and was then sprayed with gas!! I was stupid and stood right next to it. Fuel was on me and the head on that side and I couldn't tell which cylinder it came from and I was also then distracted by a crotch covered in gas.  Okay, now you know why I didn't go in to my steps clearing the problem LOL  Brain Fart!!

Valker and Old Grouch. Thanks! Tomorrow I will try that first! Those are the kind of tips I was looking for. Nothing like sharing experience and learning together!
I'll keep you posted!!

[Earl in Pensacola]

If -by-chance or if you "reopen" a carb and you get everything flowing correctly again, I think you should start using a good stabilizer and cleaner in the fuel OR ride it ALOT MORE!!  Oh yea, fix or replace the petcock.

[Earl in Pensacola]

BIG PS!!  I just noticed that you live in Maine--That explains the low usage!!  Sorry about the "RIDE IT ALOT MORE" comment!!

[greggh]

Had a float stick once. I whacked the snot out of an engine guard with a rubber mallet. Unstuck.

A+ with Valker...  I have carried a mallet for years in my bag!!

[Patrick]

Ah, OK, now I understand.. STUFF happens.. I'll bet you won't do that again !  When it happens again you'll know which hole it is.. All I do now is flush A LOT of fuel thru that carburetor and then run it for awhile.. Next morning just 'tap' the start button to see what happens.. If it doesn't lock, great.. If it does I just do the same as before.. Eventually the float should clear itself and go to working correctly.. If it doesn't after several attempts,, then it probably time to get your hands dirty..

[9Ball]

Also, in the future throw a rag over the open cylinders and you'll save a gasoline bath.  The wet spot on the rag or towel will show where it came from.

[Scott from FL, now in Maine]

Earl I agree! If I get the carb clear up I intend to run some seafoam or techron thru it heavy for a while. Thanks for understanding (taking pity?) about my limited riding time 

Life got in the way again today and didn't have a chance to get to the bike, but hopefully will tomorrow.

Patrick, when I find the culprit float I think your right about flushing it after I get it freed up. I may have some junk in the bowl even tho I rebuilt not to long ago!

Good tip jr! My....."equipment" didn't enjoy the gas bath and it will not be repeated!   

[Scott from FL, now in Maine]

Okay friends here is an update!
This morning I pulled the plugs on the left bank before attempting to start. Spun the engine and no fuel came from any of the plug holes. But the bike did fire up and ran on the 3 right cylinders for a moment before I shut it off.  I then reinstalled the plugs (which btw are black indicating I have been running rich, may have to adjust the pilot screws) and fired it up. It ran great! for about 5 mins. Then it started to bog down and the left bank started misfiring. I rechecked the plugs and found they weren't flooding. I restarted the bike and did some checking only to find out cylinders number 2 and 4 weren't running and if they were at all it was seldom. The spark seems to be great and I opened the bowl drains and fuel ran out.

Based on these finds, I am guessing the petcock malfunction is now not allowing enough fuel to the carbs. I am basing this on the fact that the bike (after setting 2 days) fired and ran fine for 5 minutes then started it's stumbling. (of course if that's the case, why did the bowl's have fuel?)

Does this sound like a likely senario? Would a poor fuel flow affect number 2 and four only? That last question is why I doubt my thoughts on the problem.

BTW I also tried running the bike with the fuel cap open to check for a plugged vent line but it made no difference.

At this moment I am stumped unless anyone has some ideas for me. I have ordered a cover set and will try that as soon as it arrives, but I don't want to let another problem sit there if it is something other than the petcock affecting the bike.

Thanks so much in advance!

[Patrick]

Well, how much fuel came out ?? 1 bowl full or a good long steady stream ??  The floats could be hung open,, did you try 'tapping' near the float end to see that would free it ?? The low jets could be varnished, but, the cylinders will still generally work at idle.. If nothing seems to work, then, the chambers can be removed to see what is happening..

[Scott from FL, now in Maine]

I only loosened the drains on the float to verify there was fuel, so based on your question I am going back to the bike now to open fully and see what I get. I tapped quite extensively on the float for numbers 2 and 4. Could the jets be varnished only 3 months after they were replaced?? I was looking at the float bowls and I guess at the very least I will have to pull the tank and air filter to remove the bowls with out pulling the carb bank. Everything sure fits tight in there. If the float are stuck open on them wouldn't that flood numbers 2 and 4? When I pulled the plugs they did not appear to show a flooded situation.

Okay back to the bike, will check back here soon.

[Scott from FL, now in Maine]

Okay back from my Lady. Pulled the plugs on #2 and 4 bowls and fuel flow is heavy! Was able to verify that the petcock is bad (fuel flows with no vacuum on line) but the shutoff function still works. I then pulled the intake tubes off of #2 and 4 not only to tap heavily and several times on the bowls, but also to see if I could get at the bowl screws for removal. I did use anti-seize on the screws, but I just can't get the right angle or pressure on the screws to remove them.

I put it all back together and my trouble is the same. Bike will run on all 6 cylinder for a few minutes and then #2 and 4 will drop off. # 6 also seems to be intermittant firing about the same time. Is there something that could effect the whole left bank?? Remember this occured right after a hydrolock which does not have appear to do any damage internally.

At this point I am stumped.

[Bone]

My 98 CT started stumbling. The #6 plug was fouling. The diaphragm had a tear that allowed the gas to flow down the vacuum line into the intake. I could ride about 50 miles and it would foul out the #6 plug.

[Scott from FL, now in Maine]

I spent a short time on the bike today and verified fuel flow is good, float is no longer stuck. But here is the problem right now and I plan to look in to it tomorrow morning I just want to run it by here for opinions? When you first fire the Lady up she runs fine on all 6 cylinders. But only a few minutes until it starts to warm up, then the whole left bank stops firing. Verified fuel and spark are good. Here is my idea. When it hydrolocked what is the possiblity that the left bank jumped a tooth on timing? Wouldn't that possiblity cause it to run at first and then when the timing changes on warming cause the left to drop out?

I plan to remove the cover tomorrow and check the timing, but was wondering if this sounded reasonable?? Thanks Guys

[Blackduck]

Very unlikely the belt has jumped.
When starting are you using the "choke", if so is this problem starting as you back the choke off?
Sounds more like a fuel mixture issue  as electrical will cut out cylinders on both banks.
Having had sticky floats there is a good chance you have restricted low jets.
Cheers Steve

[Ricky-D]

A synchronization of the carburetors would be a good start to solving the problem.

***

[Scott from FL, now in Maine]

Thanks for responding Blackduck. The bike is starting in the warm weather with no choke used at all and I verified that the choke is shut all the way off. She ran great since the carb rebuild 3 months ago until last Thurday morning when it hydrolocked. Since then she will fire and run smoothly for about 2 to 3 mins, then the left bank stops firing. Easy to verify this because she then runs the same with 2, 4 and 6 plug wires pulled and I can smell raw gas in the left side exhaust. I have been hammering my brain on this. clogged slow jets wouldn't result in the raw gas smell. Electrical would not cause left bank to drop with no effect on right bank. It is very hard to imagine that I have suddenly 3 floats on the same side sticking. The only common denominator I can think of is the timing belt to the left side.   Keeping hitting me with your thoughts on this, I can use all the ideas I can get!!!

Thanks for chiming in Ricky-D. The carbs were synched very nicely right after the carb rebuild and like I mentioned, the bike ran great for 3 months since and suddenly bad imediately after the hydrolock.    

[9Ball]

Did you check the coil wires to make sure they are properly connected?...

I had to move one coil to remove and install the carb bank and imagine you did the same...almost sounds like a heat-related effect on the wiring causing a bad connection when warmed up...

Just another guess.  I doubt this is the solution to your fuel problem but may be another thing to mark off your diagnostic checklist.

[IamGCW]

To see if the floats are stuck open install a clear hose on the drain.  Route it outside the carb bank and place the open end below the fuel tank fuel level but above the carb level.  Put a vaccuum on the petcock and open the drain for the carb.  The level in the tube is your float set point.  A stuck carb will overflow the top of the carb and may even come out of the tube.  They should all be fairly close to each other in level with the bike upright.  You can also drain the hose and raise it to see the refill time for each bowl, but the drain screws need to be open a bunch for this.  The drain screws may leak some.

[Scott from FL, now in Maine]

Thanks for your reply jrhorton. I will check the coils and their connections when I pulled the tank to rebuild the petcock, but as mentioned the trouble is occuring in the left bank, cylinders 2 and 4 stop firing as soon as the bike gets warm (2 to 3 mins) and # 6 cylinder gets intermittant. All 3 show good spark even after it's warmed up.

IAMGCW thank you for the procedure. I will try that next. I have pulled the plugs right after the cylinders stop firing and even tho they indicate running rich, they are not wet with fuel or showing any signs of flooding.

Today I pulled the belt cover and verified that the belt did not jump a tooth. The timing is correct.

I am running out of ideas and options. Right now I think I will have to pull the tank and airbox out and drop the bowls off the carbs. But for the life of me I can't wrap my head around two floats both sticking at the exact same time, and the fact that heat not fuel seems to trigger the trouble. How could this trouble relate to a hydrolock? And finally what would effect only the left bank, primarily the #2 and #4 cylinders????

[Patrick]

As soon as this problem starts, have you tried to see if you still have good fuel flow thru those 2 carburetors ?? 

[Scott from FL, now in Maine]

Good question Patrick. I think I do, but how can I verify that while it is running?

[Ricky-D]

If there has been a valve adjustment recently, you can probably lay the cause right there!

Too tight valves, when warmed up, could allow reduced compression resulting in cylinders going dead!

***

[9Ball]

agreed it's not a coil if 2 & 4 are the problem at the same time since these are on 2 different coils.

It's got to be a fuel delivery issue on the left side carbs for 2, 4 and 6.  The new petcock may fix this problem...

[Scott from FL, now in Maine]

No recent valve job Ricky-D. as a matter of fact I haven't touched the valves since I got the bike 3 years ago. I to am leaning toward the fuel system jrhorton. It is just strange that it effect only the left bank. I have the cover set ordered for rebuild and I guess the next step is to pull the tank and check all the fuel lines. Perhaps a clog slowing fuel to the left side??

[IamGCW]

If you are going to mess with the petcock you might want to install a new filter screen in the tank.  There have been many posts showing some nasty looking screens.

[Rocketman]

First comment:
I've never heard of a hydrolock causing problems with the engine's performance.  It can cause serious damage, but that's restricted to when it's being started.  If she starts fine, then the issue is most likely related to the root cause of the hydrolock (crap in the fuel, bad float, etc...) rather than being related to any damage resulting FROM the hydrolock. 
The symptoms started the same day as the hydrolock.  It would be a pretty big coincidence if it wasn't related in some way, though.

I think I vote for something obstructing your fuel flow as well.  My memory may be off here, but doesn't the flow feed #6 first, then #4, then #2?  If so, #6 would get the most fuel in an obstructed condition, and thus able to run, even if it's only intermittent.
Perhaps something flowed downstream from the partially obstructed petcock, and is clogging the line leading to the left side.  I would pull the tank, rebuild (or replace) the petcock, and blow some air through the fuel lines.

Mark

[valkyriemc]

agreed it's not a coil if 2 & 4 are the problem at the same time since these are on 2 different coils.

It's got to be a fuel delivery issue on the left side carbs for 2, 4 and 6.  The new petcock may fix this problem...

+1 Knock that P/C guy off.

[Scott from FL, now in Maine]

Not to worry IAMGCW, new filter on the way too!

Rocketman and valkyriemc, I have finally come to the same conclusion. I am now waiting on the cover set and will check the fuel lines to the left bank for obstructions. I will post an update when I get the parts in.

Thanks guys I truly appreciate you chiming in on this one!

[Scott from FL, now in Maine]

Okay guys, I am getting DESPARATE!!!!! Today I pulled the tank and airbox. Testing the petcock, checked good, but since I had the cover set I rebuilt it anyway. Nothing was wrong inside it and tested great again after rebuild.

Pulled the fuel lines and checked for obstructions, they all checked clean and good.

Pulled the bowls on 2 and 4 and found them to be clean inside (same as right after I rebuilt the carbs) and I blew out the fuel rails to be sure there was no debris in them.

Reassembled the whole bike and again checked fuel flow via the bowl drains.

Fired by bike up and she ran great.......for about 2 mins  then number 2 and 4 cylinders stopped running. Sounded even worse than before so I did some more checking and found out the number 3 cylinder stopped running too!!

Showed good spark on numbers 2 and 4, good but maybe a bit weak on number 3.

The bike fires fine, runs fine for 2 mins, then drops 2, 4, and 3 and runs on 3 cylinders!!!

If it repeats what it has been doing, then after it cools or at least sets an hour, it will repeat the whole senario.

If it was clogged slow jets I would expect all cylinders to fire when I gave it some throttle but it doesn't change.  faster rpm on 3 cylinders.   

I am at a loss right now. Am I going to have to pull the entire carb bank just to verify the is nothing wrong with the carbs??

Could a bad ECM cause this???

[whitestroke]

Have you tryed external fuel supply.  This will eliminate tank/filter and fuel flow due to not flowing downhill.

[Ricky-D]

Could a bad ECM cause this???

Sure it can.

Swap it out for a known good one to find out if yours is bad.

***

[Scott from FL, now in Maine]

Whitestroke, I did verify the fuel flow, both the positioning of the fuel lines and the flow at the bowls.
I'll keep an external fuel source in mind, but at this time I think I have ruled out fuel flow troubles.

Ricky-D, glad to hear I am not out to lunch with the ECM idea. Of course finding a good ECM to test that will be hard. I think I may have to order a new one just to be able to test that theory out. 

$175 plus shipping just to test it out  Wonder if I can find one at Pinwall and if I can trust it?

[Patrick]

It doesn't seem to me as though the problem is electrical unless I'm really missing something.. It seems like you have fire to the low/left side [2,4,and 6] when they quit working,, correct ?? 
Just a dumb question,, is this monster sitting upright and somewhat level when testing or is it on the side stand ??
What did you do to the carburetors ?? How far apart did you take them and what did you do or use to clean them ??  I'm stubbornly sticking to a fuel/carburetor issue..

[Scott from FL, now in Maine]

Your right I do have fire at all plugs, but at the moment I am questioning the timing of the firing impulses. Originally the bike would start and run smooth. Then in 2 mins number 2 and 4 would stop running altho they do have spark. Then number six would become intermittant.

After rebuilding the petcock and cleaning all fuel lines and fuel rack along side carbs, I fire it up with almost the same results. All the previuosly mentioned symptoms plus number 3 now also stops running.

The rebuild included cleaning the bowls and jets, placing the 35 jets with 38's. Also flushed the pilot screws out. Replaced the bowl seals, the pilot screw seals. Adjusted all pilot screws to 1 and 3/4 turns out. Synchonized the carbs.

After rebuild the bike ran GREAT!! The popping on deccel disappeared and she idles very smoothly and I felt more torgue in the take off.

Rode over 400 miles since the rebuild with no troubles and great performance. Let the bike sit one week and that's when the trouble began. Since this began I have tried it running both on the side stand and straight up. Has no effect on the situation.

If it is a fuel/carb problem, why did opening it up today and flushing have no effect other than number 3 cylinder beginning to have the same trouble?

If you have any idea of what more I can check, please share Patrick. I appreciate all input!!

[Blackduck]

When you cleaned the carbs did you blow air back through the float valve seats?
There are screens in there that could be blocked.
Cheers Steve

[Scott from FL, now in Maine]

Blackduck, thanks for the input. I was aware of those screens and made sure they were clean and clear at the time of the rebuild.

I am going to purchase a used ECM from Pinwall. But I was wondering if it matters whether the ECM came from a standard, tourer, or interstate??