Hydrolock, say it ain't so!!! Starter Motor grinding after sitting too long.

[trevtop]

I've been in a state of shock since this morning. I believe I have something I hadn't heard of and regret not draining the 3 carbs on right side. Maybe a lesson can be learned for all.

I bought my 2000 Valkyrie Interstate in the summer of 2005. I live in New Orleans. Guess what happened next? Thankfully, my bikes didn't flood. Sold my Nighthawk 750, sold the trunk off my I/S and radiator pods along with changing the engine guards. Added speakers, guard rails, extra lights, etc. All post-Katrina, not a great riding environment, so I rarely rode the bike. I've bopped around from place to place (long story) always kept it outside, but it always ran from place to place...

This last move, I charged the battery, bike wouldn't start and leaked gas bad out of the left bank of carbs (side the bike leans on). Drained left side carbs. Bike starts up but has a hard time idling, gets me half-way to my new place then it starts to pour down rain.

When I return the bike immediately gives me an awful grinding sound from the starter motor. I think oh great now I need a starter motor from all the attempted starting and barely riding I've been doing for the last 4 years. I research a starter motor and see it's another $150 and appears to be  easy to replace, EXCEPT then I find out about HYDROLOCK and I just about had a heart attack.

I had planned a big trip this summer to finally let it run and now it looks like I'm too late.

Please tell me there's something else I can do?!?!?!

Heartbroken in the Big Easy

[Bone]

EXCEPT then I find out about HYDROLOCK and I just about had a heart attack.

Does that mean your bike is Hydrolocked ?

Did you pull all of the sparkplugs to check the cylinders for gas ?

[trevtop]

I have not. The bike is on the street and it will be a long push to get it to my new push.

The Starter Motor is grinding. Checking the cylinders for gas won't change that will it?

[Bone]

Fixing the starter and not check for a Hydrolocked engine wouldn't be my first move. Either problem is a possibility it's a matter of time and money.
More troubleshooting is necessary to narrow down the problem.

[trevtop]

It was running hours before, but the grinding sound when I push the Starter button is awful.

I should shut off the Fuel. Clear out all the carbs, then pull the plugs to check the cylinders. Is that the right order?

[Bone]

It could be electrical with the battery issues. The left carb bank leaking just alerts me to a possible dirty fuel system. Not turning off your fuel could fill a cylinder quickly with a stuck-open float.
I got into the habit years ago shutting off the petcock and with the Valks it's a necessity.
Pulling the plugs and turning over the engine (with a starter or by hand) will tell you if it's locked-up or if a cylinder is full of fuel.

[BF]

I'm no expert by a long shot, but before doing anything, I'd first simply pull the plugs....all of them.  Do a sniff test for any gas.  If you don't smell gas coming from the heads, then I'd try to bump the motor over.  With an excape route out of the plug holes for any liquid that might be in your motor, you probably can  then turn the motor over to now in order to get a better handle on what your starter is doing. 

Have a fire bottle handy just in case.   

[sandy]

Could be that the battery is old and low on voltage. The chatter might be the starter not having enough juice to fully engage. Try jumping it from a "non running" car battery. Never jump a bike from a running car. The alternator is too big for the bikes battery.

[trevtop]

OK, in the interest of full disclosure, I did jump the bike with my running truck. I forgot that I bought a new battery from Honda 5 months before and I've jumped bikes from cars from forever (or at least 1987 and they were always Hondas), but I didn't make any inroads until I charged the battery. When it first went into Starter grinding mode was strickly the Honda-issue YTX-14BS battery, fully-charged. It had rained a bunch when it sat out in the streets, but it drove for 10 blocks (seemingly with all cylinders hitting but could it drive on 3 cylinders with 3 flooded that whole time????). Where is Daniel Meyer when I need him...

I've owned Hondas and this Valkyrie for some time and I really didn't expect this to happen but I admit to being a negligent owner. I fully expected it to get me the 20 blocks I needed to go before I worked on it. It has sat outside in a carport.

I went back to it this evening and the same grinding sound occurs. It clearly needs a new starter but have I done further damage and do I really need to remove the engine to remove/install the starter?

[trevtop]

In case it wasn't clear this is definitely not a battery issueV (5-MONTH old battery from Honda, recharged by AutoZone, and I know what you might wanna say but... come on). This is specifically a grinding sound every time you hit the starter button.

Is there a way to MANUALLY CRANK A GL1500 ENGINE?

[sandy]

I've push started mine when the old battery gave out.

[RLD]

You need to pull the plugs and turn over the motor to see if there is fuel in any of the cylinders, IGNITION OFF! Push it if you have to or pull the center cover off of the timing belt cover and turn it with a socket. If there is no gas, it could just be a starter problem and that can be pulled without pulling the motor. A hydrolock causes the gears to bust when the starter attempts to turn over a motor that has a cylinder filled with gas. STOP TRYING TO TURN OVER THE MOTOR UNTIL THIS IS CHECKED OR YOU WILL REGRET IT.

[Rocketman]

You describe it as a grinding noise.  Every time I've hydrolocked (yes, I have 3X experience...), it's given a horrendous clattering noise.  I wouldn't describe it as grinding.  The clattering comes from a tooth (or two, or three) breaking off of a gear deep inside the engine casing, and when the motor turns that gear, it freewheels through the toothless spot, then clacks up against the next tooth.  Other than the risk of another lock, if you keep running like that, it will eventually stop at the point where the gear just spins through that toothless area, and never bites.  You'll get just a high speed spinning noise, and nothing else.

As for detecting a lock, it's an intermittent problem, therefore it's a tough diagnosis.  Sometimes it will be bad enough to have gasoline dripping from the exhaust.  Sometimes it will just stop the cylinder from turning (thus breaking the gear).  Sometimes it will not be detectable at all.
If you did lock, and break the gear, you've already done the damage.  The only path forward is to open the engine casing and replace that gear.  Then, fix the leak that caused the lock.
The lock can have a few different causes.  The most common is caused by several things simultaneously:
1) Leaky petcock.
2) Leaky float valve in one or more carbs.
3) The cylinder with the leaky float valve is stopped with the intake valve open.

The second most common is if the stock petcock leaks down its vacuum supply line, bypassing the carb, and going directly into the #6 intake.  Then the intake valve has to be open, but that's just a matter of luck.

After my third lock, I did several things:
1) I stopped going to the mechanic who had sworn he fixed the problem the first two times.
2) Replaced the carbs with the leaky float valves.  (the valves aren't replaceable.  gotta replace the whole carb.)
3) Replaced the petcock with a manual Pingle (non-vacuum operated)
4) Developed a shutdown/startup procedure to prevent myself from being caught off guard again:
Before I shut off the engine, I shut off the gasoline supply.  I will shut it off while approaching my destination, up to a mile from my destination.  This burns off the gasoline in the float bowls.
When I come back out to restart, I first check to make sure I remembered to shut it off on shutdown.  If I remembered, I will start up normally.  If I forgot, before starting I will do a status check:  Shift to fifth gear.  Let out the clutch.  Gently roll forward.  She ought to roll somewhat easily.  You will get resistance as it goes through a compression stroke, but not a lot.  If there's liquid fuel in a cylinder, that resistance will go from minor to serious.  It will feel like you're hitting a wall.  That resistance, if encountered by the starter motor rather than your legs when pushing, is what breaks the gear.  If you get the resistance, pull the plugs, and roll it again.  Gasoline will shoot out one or more cylinders.  That's your leaker.  Then, until you fix the leak, either be obsessive about this procedure, or don't start it.  Up to you, and your willingness to accept risk.  Pushing it with the plugs out should clear it temporarily.  Hitting the starter button with the plugs out would clear it better, but can be dangerous (electricity and flying fuel).

I am manic about this procedure, even though my new(er) Valkyrie has never shown a propensity to lock.  After three of them, I am not interested in another, and am willing to get into this simple habit to limit my vulnerability.  It's not absolutely risk free, but it's close.

Mark

[franco6]

 check starter mounting bolts. a bike outside is gonna have dirt everywhere! take starter out, clean and check  true of all parts and test.clean thoroughly plug receptacles, pull plugs and turn engine by hand with wrench.the pugs will tell you alot on condition of cylinders. anyhow it sonds like a case of poor f6 tlc .give your ride the attention it deserves!

[trevtop]

Now we're getting somewhere. Great info Mark. Yes, I have definitely not given this bike the attention it deserves and it's too big of a bike for pot-holed city of New Orleans, I would like to sell this and a bunch of Valkyrie accessories as soon as this weekend (I intend to list stuff on e-Bay, although I don't see that many Valk owners selling parts these days, are they still looking? Valk stuff seems to be going cheaper or not selling at all...).

Yesterday I drained the other 3 carbs and hit the starter button softly a couple of times (probably only twice with the "grinding" noise the day before) hoping it might be intermittent and miraculously start up (I know I'm pushing my luck). Fortunately (?!?!?!), it still make the sound, no lock up yet, Mark, yes it makes more of a rattling sound than a grinding sound.

I have to get a friend and get it pushed over here. Then I will:

"pull the plugs and turn over the motor to see if there is fuel in any of the cylinders, IGNITION OFF! Push it if you have to or pull the center cover off of the timing belt cover and turn it with a socket. If there is no gas, it could just be a starter problem and that can be pulled without pulling the motor. A hydrolock causes the gears to bust when the starter attempts to turn over a motor that has a cylinder filled with gas."

More soon. Thanks for all the input. Living on the edge in the Big Easy is no place for a Valkyrie.

[Bagger John - #3785]

Living on the edge in the Big Easy is no place for a Valkyrie.

If your inseam permits it, allow me to suggest one of these:



There aren't too many places it can't go, or conditions it can't deal with.

[Rocketman]

Yesterday I drained the other 3 carbs and hit the starter button softly a couple of times (probably only twice with the "grinding" noise the day before) hoping it might be intermittent and miraculously start up (I know I'm pushing my luck). Fortunately (?!?!?!), it still make the sound, no lock up yet, Mark, yes it makes more of a rattling sound than a grinding sound.

I have to get a friend and get it pushed over here. Then I will:

"pull the plugs and turn over the motor to see if there is fuel in any of the cylinders, IGNITION OFF! Push it if you have to or pull the center cover off of the timing belt cover and turn it with a socket. If there is no gas, it could just be a starter problem and that can be pulled without pulling the motor. A hydrolock causes the gears to bust when the starter attempts to turn over a motor that has a cylinder filled with gas."

Has it started at all since the problem began?  If the engine has turned, then you've likely cleared the gasoline in the cylinder(s), and "destroyed the evidence", you might say.  Just because it's clear now doesn't mean it WAS clear, or that it will stay clear.
If it's rattling/clacking, then you've done the damage already.    It will continue to make that sound until it either settles into a spot where it will only make the spinning sound and not do anything at all, or until you fix it.
I'm not convinced that hitting the starter button "lightly" will make any difference.  The only hope to hit the button and keep from doing damage is to tap it VERY quickly (on, then quickly off), but I think that the starter winds up too fast with too much force to give it a small enough impulse to keep it from destroying things.
You've got three things to fix:
1) The idler gear (tooth/teeth broken)
2) The carb(s) (leaky float valve)
3) The petcock (leak)

All of those need to be addressed, or you will be dealing with this issue again.

Mark

[Madmike]

If you have a center stand you can put it up on that, remove all of the plugs, put it in fifth gear and then rotate the rear wheel and it should turn over the engine back through the drive train.

Or, if you don't have a center stand you can remove the sparkplugs and then select 5th gear and push the bike and it will turn the engine over through the drive train.

[trevtop]

I don't have a center stand. Do I/Can I remove the starter? Is that where I will find the idler gear?

[Madmike]

If in fact you have had a hydraulic lock then you will most likely have have two sets of problems to repair: the gear case damage and the problems in the fuel system. 

If your problem at the starter was created by a hydraulic lock and you go ahead and do the repairs to the gearcase without solving the fuel problem then you will most likely be repeating the gearcase repairs in the near future as the root cause of the failure is the problem of the fuel getting into the cylinder(s) and locking up the engine which breaks the pieces in the gearcase when you attempt to compress the fuel when you try to start the engine.

You could remove the starter and see what is going on in there.  If you decide to do this you may want to disconnect the negative battery cable at the battery post first as this will lessen the likelihood of creating blue arcs if you ground out anything when you are working in the area of the starter.

If you had a hydraulic lock you could remove the spark plugs, turn over the engine by one of the various methods posted and see if you have fuel in one or several cylinders to determine which carburetor(s) is/are allowing fuel to flood the cylinder(s).  In addition (as someone else pointed out) your petcock may be leaking and allowing fuel to go to the carbs when the bike is not running although there is fuel in the line from the carbs to the petcock and if this leaks down it is said to be sufficient quantity to lock up the engine.


Here is a link to a service manual that you can download to assist you in your repairs, look on the left side of the page under "Technical":

http://www.valkyrienorway.com/index.html

Microfiche available here, select year and model:

http://www.hdlparts.com/fiche_select1.asp?cat=Motorcycles&mfg=Honda

[Rocketman]

I don't have a center stand. Do I/Can I remove the starter? Is that where I will find the idler gear?

I've removed the starter to "get a better look".
I'll tell you this:
It's useless.  The gear that breaks is in the engine, not on the starter.  You might be able to see the broken teeth through the starter opening, but you might not.  You certainly can't do anything about it without opening the engine casing.  I would not recommend removing the starter.

If your problem at the starter was created by a hydraulic lock and you go ahead and do the repairs to the gearcase without solving the fuel problem then you will most likely be repeating the gearcase repairs in the near future.

AMEN!
Mike is absolutely right.  Fix the fuel delivery problems (both the petcock AND the carb), or you will be doing the gear fix again.  If you don't do it yourself, pester the guy that does it, until you're satisified it's done right.  Even then, be careful, using the method I described earlier.  Leave the fuel on.  TRY to get it to lock, checking it with the plugs out.  Only after doing this MULTIPLE times, would I be confident about the fix.

Mark