coils

[valky1500]

#1 coil not firing on both sides. There is contunuity at the primary and secondary and the volt tests match the battery. The wires also show continuence and resistence within specs.

So what gives, any ideas?

[Patrick]

From your post I can't tell when and how you're checking for voltage.. Are you checking both cranking and not cranking and getting good battery voltage?? Have you removed the front sparklers to make sure everything with them is OK,, like not having the holes full of water and grounding them ?? You may have good voltage to the coils,,but,, are the connections clean and solid ?? Have you tried to swap coils ?? These may seem like crazy and simple questions ,, but,, had to be asked..

[valky1500]

To answer all your questions with a yes and thanks for asking.
I have checked only battery voltage with the switch turned on and the plugs are new with no water in them.

It does start up and runs on 4 cylinders. I hesitate to check the secondary voltage at the coils while it's running as it has a high voltage pulse and I believe that would short out the start circuit and/or VOM without using a Peak Voltage Tester (DVA) for that purpose.

So it all checks out up to that point and I'm at a loss as to what would prevent a good single coil from firing when it has power going in but none coming out. The way I know this is by pulling out the spark plugs and checking for a spark in which none isn't present.

The only things left on the start circuit to check are the pulse generators and ICM. A continuity check for is next for them.

Any ideas?

[GJS]

The only thing I can think of is that a continuity check is a DC measurement.
Those wires should be measured for AC impedance, no? I've never done it so I don't know for sure, but the pulse to the plug is high voltage spike and I know low my meter uses low voltage DC to check continuity.

Know any old TV repair guys with a scope (high voltage oscilloscope), that would tell you amplitude at each wire as well.

My 2 cents.....

Good luck

Glenn

[valky1500]

That's true, Impedence is an AC measurement.

It's to my understanding that a high energy pulsed signal on a DC current can not be measured with a VOM or DMM meter without using what is called, in this country, a Direct Voltage Adaptor (DVA). The manual calls it a Peak Voltage Tester and it's not available for sale in this country. They are one and the same in design I am told.

What this means is if you try to take a secondary voltage of a coil while the engine is running, it will short out the start circuit and/or VOM. It could also make the problems worse or even give you more from doing that. That is unless you are using this instrument called a DVA in which will measure the peak DC voltage from the high energy signal.

At this point, I question even trying to take that reading because it won't point to the cause of or to the problem itself. What I seek is a solution to the problem here so I need to know what and where the problem is first.

My next steps are in testing the pulsed side for continuity and resistence with the engine not running. It can be from a bad contact point in the wire harness connections or a short in between somewhere. it can also be a Pulse Generator has gone bad as they are known to do. I'm trying to find out what would happen if it were bad besides keep the engine from running or starting. Even if they (or one of them) are bad, how can this keep a single coil from sparking?

I know the last phase of this pulsed signal passes through the ECU and that can be bad. But if it were the ECU it wouldn't even start up let alone run. As a matter of fact, nothing would work as they either work or they don't.

Any ideas?

[ryord]

I had an intermittent problem with coil 3 and 4, to make a long story short, replaced the wires and problem solved, The bike has been running great ever since. The wires resistance was within specks, but one was still bad, The wires have small parts in them that are removable.

[valky1500]

That's the first thing I checked for.
Then removed the coil for a swap with another before checking it.
The funny thing is that both coils had continuance and resistence readings within specs. The battery voltage also showed at the primaries but since I couldn't take a secondary reading with the engine running I swapped them out. Still no joy.

[valky1500]

Oh...

and I forgot to say...

maybe to make a long story short I should change both wires...

to find that out.

[valky1500]

Didn't you say you found a single wire went bad?

I have 2 no sparkers, same coil.

[RP#62]

Couldn't tell from your response - when you swapped coils, did the problem follow the coil or stay at the 1-2 position?

-RP

[ryord]

Yes only one wire was bad, but if one does not work neither will work, I bought  a set of used coils and wires on ebay for about 30.00 and replaced both the 3 and 4 wire, it fired right up and has run great since with no cutting out. It was odd that it was intermittent but I have seen that before with plug wires, It was a heat related problem.

[valky1500]

I can see you are right on here and will take that advice from someone who has gone through it.
I also found another post n this thread and will quote it here:

Craig, if one plug or one plug wire or one resistor goes bad, neither plug attached to that coil will fire.  If the plugs you have are now fouled, you need to replace both of them at the same time to get a spark.

Bigwolf

I should be able to do this sometime tmw and will keep you updated.

thanks.

[valky1500]

RP#62- Yes I have tried to swapout 3 coils but not the wires because they seemingly checked out.
Now I have the idea to take out those resistors in the boots and swap them out untill I find the bad one.

Will keep you posted.

[valky1500]

I have a real good feeling about this being the problem. Here is another post that makes light for a solution.

http://www.valkyrieriders.com/ShopTalk/plugwires.pdf

[valky1500]

Update:
I had a few hours and gave it a going over today. I swapped a working coil #3 with the #1 that isn't firing. The same no fire at 1 and 2 cylinders and 5 and 6 are firing. So it's not thecoil.

I checked some extra wires for continuity and resistance and they checked out. They came with a used set of coils and my VOM says they appear to be good. I took the resistors out of the boots and found some rust on 1 and cleaned it up. Then I changed both #1 and #2 wires and still no fire.

So I'm at a stand still here and cant see where the problem is at. #1 coils is getting the primary power from the battery but there's still no spark.

Any ideas.

[pocobubba]

Wires on the wrong lugs , hot & ground ?

[BonS]

Have you looked at your ignition module plug wiring and pins? There could be some corrosion. If that doesn't disclose anything then you could try your ignition module on another Valkyrie. Or try a friends ignition module on yours.

If you could also set your VOM to AC and probe the primary side of the coil while the bike is running. Look for an AC reading that is similar to a good working coil. The actual voltage doesn't matter, rather it's whether they're similar. An oscilloscope is most useful for this because you can see the ignition module pulling down the primary wire from 12 volts to ground in a regular pattern.

[valky1500]

Pocobubba
Are you refering to the pulse and power wires?

Pulse is yellow/red wire to blue lug on coil. Check.
Black/white is power wire from battery. Check
Ground is to frame at #1 coil with green wire. Check.
Dual post tower coils are actually grounded at the ECU.
No ground = no coil works. Check.

A word here- These coils do appear to be grounded to the frame threw the bolts, to the clips, to the brackets they are in and then bolted to the frame. This is what I have been cleaning up when putting them back together. The way to tell if they are grounded or not is to touch the black/white primary lug for battery voltage when the key is turned on and engine off. There is a voltage drop of 1 volt when engine is not running. But when running the voltage is increased 1 volt over the battery, obviously from the alternator charging.

[chrise2469]

I have had a bad wire that was intermittent in nature. when it was on the bike and bouncing it would not fire randomly.  Metered just fine but when it was bent just right...

A couple of other things to check: confirm continuity between pin 3 of the icm harness and the yellow white of the coil.

try using a jumper clip from the ground side of coil and run it to a known good ground. I had some ground issues with a coil.  When i cleaned the ground my peak volts jumped up 10v.

If you really want a peak voltage adaptor they can be had from ea tools not affiliated just found a link from google.
http://www.ntxtools.com/network-tool-warehouse/ESI-640.html

If you add your city and/or state to your profile, you might find somebody who is nearby who can help.

[valky1500]

BonS
No doubt an oscilloscope scope would tell me what I couldn't see without it.
Unfortunetly, I don't have that luxury here in my garage. Even if I did, what good would it do to know something the ECU does with the signal from the pickups when all it really cares about is the primary voltage at the coil anyways.

I have set my VOM to ACV for a reading of coil primary and secondary with the engine running but can't decide what it's telling me that I need to know.

Actually I have been using a Dyna 3k1-1 and 6* TW since 2000 and that was the first thing I had in mind to check out when it started acting up. So I have been in contact with a rep there and the Dyna 3k1-1 has the feature to run a coil diagnostics when the key is first turned on and if it finds a bad coil or wire it won't allow a start and I've never have experienced it. It does in fact startup and even runs on 4 cylinders now. So we both agree on 1 thing, Dont rule out the ECU just yet. Mostly because we agree on the fact that an ECU either works or doesn't and there is no in between. It starts or it doesn't.

Checking the ignition module plug wiring and pins seems to be in order here and the next step at this time. That leaves me between a rock and a hard place. I have already tried to disconnect the Dyna but to do so means it stays inside the frame while prying off the clip. That plus I haven't been able to actually get the over flow bottle completely out and since I don't want to make a bad situation worse I have left it alone up to this point.

Yes I do have my old ECU still and have another around somewhere but I really would hate losing my Dyna. The rep told me it's unfortunate since they have been discontinued several years ago and it would take like $600-$700 to make today. I almost said that I would likey pay that if I needed one but stopped short.

Any ideas.

[valky1500]

chrise2469
That's some good info there and a fresh start for tmw.

will keep you posted.

thanks.

[BonS]

BonS
No doubt an oscilloscope scope would tell me what I couldn't see without it.
Unfortunetly, I don't have that luxury here in my garage. Even if I did, what good would it do to know something the ECU does with the signal from the pickups when all it really cares about is the primary voltage at the coil anyways.

I have set my VOM to ACV for a reading of coil primary and secondary with the engine running but can't decide what it's telling me that I need to know.

Actually I have been using a Dyna 3k1-1 and 6* TW since 2000 and that was the first thing I had in mind to check out when it started acting up. So I have been in contact with a rep there and the Dyna 3k1-1 has the feature to run a coil diagnostics when the key is first turned on and if it finds a bad coil or wire it won't allow a start and I've never have experienced it. It does in fact startup and even runs on 4 cylinders now. So we both agree on 1 thing, Dont rule out the ECU just yet. Mostly because we agree on the fact that an ECU either works or doesn't and there is no in between. It starts or it doesn't.

Checking the ignition module plug wiring and pins seems to be in order here and the next step at this time. That leaves me between a rock and a hard place. I have already tried to disconnect the Dyna but to do so means it stays inside the frame while prying off the clip. That plus I haven't been able to actually get the over flow bottle completely out and since I don't want to make a bad situation worse I have left it alone up to this point.

Yes I do have my old ECU still and have another around somewhere but I really would hate losing my Dyna. The rep told me it's unfortunate since they have been discontinued several years ago and it would take like $600-$700 to make today. I almost said that I would likey pay that if I needed one but stopped short.

Any ideas.

The ECU pulls down one lead of the coil to ground and then lets it "float" back to the voltage rail (nominally 12 volts) for each plug firing. There are three channels on the ECU: One for each coil pack. You can pick up this voltage change by connecting either a scope or a VOM to the yellow/white wire on the #1,2 coil pack. The voltage must be alternating between the rail and ground at a rate proportional to the engine rpm. You can use an ordinary automotive test light and see it flicker if the coil is being pulsed.

If the signal isn't there then it may be the Dyna. Many a Dyna 3K has failed their owners over the years.

You probably already know this but be very careful not to break off the nipple of the overflow bottle or it's toast.

On the ECU the connections are: Pin 1 - coil 5&6, Pin 2 - coil 3&4, Pin 3 - coil 1&2, Pin 4 - ground.

I hope this helps.

[art]

From your post I can't tell when and how you're checking for voltage.. Are you checking both cranking and not cranking and getting good battery voltage?? Have you removed the front sparklers to make sure everything with them is OK,, like not having the holes full of water and grounding them ?? You may have good voltage to the coils,,but,, are the connections clean and solid ?? Have you tried to swap coils ?? These may seem like crazy and simple questions ,, but,, had to be asked..

I had the same problem back three years ago.I switched coils and even bought a new coil ,nothing helped .I changed out the plugs and wires,nothing.Not firing on #1+2,cold exhaust pipes.Turned out to be carbs.I bought a set from the classifieds and have not had any trouble since.

[BonS]

This is one my favorite tools to check for spark. No wire piercing or fooling around with disassembly of any kind. Simply place it on a plug wire and see a neon flash for each pulse. It's easy to see a misfire or no-fire condition. Cheap, portable and fast diagnostic tool. It's a Lisle LIS19380 spark indicator. I've had one in my tool box for over 40 years. It works best out of direct sunlight but you can shade it with your hand. No batteries required. ~$5