electronic question concerning LED's

[Brian]

A little over a year ago I converted the rear signals to brake/turn/running lights. I used the Hoppy trailer convertor along with the 30 count 1157 red LED's from superbright. I have just come to realize that all 30 of the LED's are burning in the running mode with very little difference in brightness with the brake applied. I replaced the LED's with standard 1157 incadesents bulbs to verify that only one filament is burning while in the run mode with both filaments burning with the brake on. By the way both sides work fine with when using the signal switch.

My question here is, should only a portion of the LED's be lit in the run mode, with the all lit when braking?

Is there something I need to add to the circuit to use the LED's?

[sandy]

Recheck the brake function at night. I have that bulb and I'm not happy with it in bright daylight.

[valky1500]

Brian
Are you saying it has been working for a year and now you realize it's not?

[Brian]

Sandy and Vakly,
Originally I did check them at night and did notice a little brighter difference when using the brake. This past spring I replaced the tail/brake light with the same LED. I was then told by a biker behind me that he could not tell a difference in brightness of the tail light when I was braking, this day was sunny. I went back with a 2357. After really looking at these I decided to take them out and now have all incadescents back there again.

[Ricky-D]

Smart move.

Most riders never check the brake lights nor the air pressure in their tires.

***

[Joe Hummer]

I did a side by side comparison with the 1157 replacement bulb and this one Type 68 and the Type 68 was MUCH brighter for daylight operations.  Night operation is blinding.  I have been running the Type 68 in my bike's rear turn signals for several months now and have today ordered the amber bulbs for the front signals.  I am hoping for (and fully expect) a similar result.  Yes...these bulbs are not cheap...but if they help you get seen and draw so little current...it is worth it to me.  I am also going to try their H3 replacement bulb to see how I like it.  The bulbs on my Martin Industries driving lights have been going out WAY too frequently.  If the H3 LED bulbs will give me the same intensity as the regular H3 and last longer...I am sold on them.   

Now...to answer your question...I would think that all of the LEDs would be on during the Running Light mode but at a lesser capacity.  Once you hit the brakes, you would get all of the LEDs at a brighter intensity.  A quick call to SuperBrightLEDs would give you the answer you need.  I can't remember the name of fellow that turned me on to the Type 68 bulbs but he seemed quite knowledgeable of the products they offer.

Joe

[Brian]

Thanks Joe.
Since my last post I have not had time at work to call them during the day. I assume the type 68 is an LED too. I will check their site while on the computer this weekend. I also plan to check the voltage at the socket tip connections this weekend just to see what I am exactly getting from the hoppy convertor. So far everything has been fine using the standard bulbs.

[valky1500]

The problems with swapping LED lights to replace incandecents isn't just using the same socket bulb. LEDs will focus only on the lens and not at the reflectors like regular bulbs do. They won't shine right without a good lens and of course that's what you want brake lights to do.

The second problem would be using a single element replacement bulb in a dual element socket and that happens most. The rear turn signals are single element so there's no problem with that.

For all it's worth, I use 3496 with good report to replace the 1157 brake bulbs as they are brighter and longer lasting. Plus they fit the same dual element socket. They are used in trucks and trailers.

[Brian]

I changed my rear sockets for the dual element 1157 so I could have more brake lights back there without adding more lights keeping the rear of the bike looking stock. I did try the LED's last night using the white garage door as the background. The LED's do brighten abit while braking but not like I would expect. I have tried these during the day time and that's when I received the word from a another biker that they are not that nocticeable during bright sun light. I had an LED in the tail light as well and took that out too. Went to a 2357 there. So right now I have 3 red 30 count LED's to fit a 1157 socket not being used. I also checked the voltage coming thru the hoppy convertor and see nothing low to cause low illumination when compared to the tail light socket. I might just have to give up trying to use the LED's for now. At least my quest for more brake lights have been acheived. Giving me some peace of mind. I wish other bikers would consider their rear lights too. Been on too many group rides with the veterans and the PGR where bikes in front have small lights and not many. Especially when riding in the rain. IMHO. Thanks.

[valky1500]

I use a dual element red LEDs setup in my amber turn signals for both running and brake lights. The LED circuit is seperated from the incandecent circuit with a diode because the currents dont mix. Outside of that they are both connected to the same running, brake and turn signal circuits and work well. There are 3 circuits involved here and not only 2.

I am not familiar with the hoppy wiring but I'm sure it's the same as for any other connection of the 3 circuits. Could it be that your dual element 2357 (1157) not be connected to the brake circuit, therefore not activating the second (bright) element?

[Brian]

Both elements work as they are supposed too. The tail light is seperate for the brake,run and turn signals. The hoppy trailer convertor only controls the 1157 turn signal sockets. All dual element incandecents work fine.

[valky1500]

Then you are answering your own questions here.
Many have tried those 1157 led bulbs and they don't do what you buy them for.
What I have gathered from it all is they are not true LED lights per se but bulbs that look like leds clustered together.
Does that make sense?
Maybe someone who has used them before will chime in.

[John U.]

I'm using 48 LED clusters for all my turn signals. They are bright, come in 1156 or 1157 types. I replaced my rear signals with fronts (1157) to provide running lights. You'll need an electronic signal relay so they blink at the right speed and for a Standard or Tourer a pair of diodes for the indicator light, so the power will not backfeed. Interstates don't need the diodes, they have two indicator lights.

Custom Dynamics makes an LED cluster that fits single screw turn signals exactly. The two screw signal clusters need to be glued in place. No affiliation.
http://www.customdynamics.com/honda_turn_signal_led.htm

[valky1500]

I have seen those wide angle super brights and often wondered
Out of curiousity:
did you have to change your flasher when using this set up
or did you use a load equalizer to acomplish the proper flash speed?

[Brian]

I too am using a set of front signals on the back that I picked up used. When I installed the National Cycle light bar on the front I left the OEM turn signals in place to give me two more amber running and turn signals on the front so flasher speed was not affected using the LED's in the rear. If I understand this correctly, if not using the diode in the headlight bucket connected to the single turn signal indicator the power will back feed to the other LED causing both sides to blink. This is not the case here. After going through this it appears as my issue may just be the selection of LED bulb?

John U, thanks for the link. Do you see a noticeable light intensity difference on your rears between running and braking?

I appreciate all the input guys. This site is awesome. Thanks.

[John U.]

I have seen those wide angle super brights and often wondered
Out of curiousity:
did you have to change your flasher when using this set up
or did you use a load equalizer to acomplish the proper flash speed?


John U, thanks for the link. Do you see a noticeable light intensity difference on your rears between running and braking?

Yes, you have to change the flasher (relay) to an electronic model if all the turn signals are LED. You can also use a load equalizer but it creates heat and puts added load on the alternator which defeats one of the advantages of LEDs.

My rear turn signals are set up as running lights and turns, so they don't get brighter when I apply the brakes. The turns are plenty visible though.
I have a Radiantz tail/brake light and yes it is bright, day or night.
http://www.radiantz.com/index1.html?c16.html&1

[valky1500]

Yes that makes it easier to understand when using an already made circuit for lights only. LEDs can be very bright when used alone or incorporated with a lens used by the incandescent but they can't use its reflector.
Also, Incandescent lights use a floating ground  but LEDs are directional and won't work where current back flow is present. This is why diodes and resistors are needed for those circumstances.
He is using a still unidentified 30 LED bulb and Hoppy trailer module and for all that we know it is an incandescent only light bulb controller. Tt would be a different story if we knew what bulb and Hoppy trailer module he is using here.

[Brian]

Hoppy convertor part # 48845 universal

LED lights from superbright.com #1157-X30: 30-LED BAY 15D-1157-R30-WV: 1157 RED 100 Degree

The LED's work, each blink when they are supposed to, just not much on the brightness between running and braking especially during the day. Night time you do see some difference.

Looking at the Hoppy site the only LED compatible convertor that I see refers to the vehicle side of the wiring not the trailer. The rear lights are considered the trailer. This trailer wiring convertor was recommended on a thread here. I went and added the LED's. The website at the top of the page I down loaded and printed out is www.barnettdh.com/taillights/taillights.htm

1157 and 2057 standard bulbs work fine.

[Brian]

I tried to find the original post that contained this website and failed. I did find a thread on this same subject that X-Ring posted using this same convertor.

[valky1500]

For those LEDs to activate as brake lights they need to be connected to the brake circuit which will be in turn a bright signal.

To use them as running lights (dim) they need to be red and as turn signals they need to be either red or better yet amber.

So to make those LEDs running lights, brake lights and turn signals takes its own wiring circuit that that will be connected to 2 different direction circuits. This will be accomplished when added to the incandescent light circuit they will be intermitant either by blinking or as running lights and when braking as brake lights.

[Valkpilot]

For those LEDs to activate as brake lights they need to be connected to the brake circuit which will be in turn a bright signal.

To use them as running lights (dim) they need to be red and as turn signals they need to be either red or better yet amber.

So to make those LEDs running lights, brake lights and turn signals takes its own wiring circuit that that will be connected to 2 different direction circuits. This will be accomplished when added to the incandescent light circuit they will be intermitant either by blinking or as running lights and when braking as brake lights.

Dual-intensity LEDs work just like their incandescent counterparts in dual-filament, e.g., 1157 applications.

The Hoppy converter works by sending the brake light signal down the turn signal circuit.  When both brakes and turn signal are in use, it interrupts the brake light according to the flasher input.

I'm using Custom Dynamics Universal LED Clusters with 1157 base pigtails.  They are dual-intensity LEDs, but as the OP states, the contrast between the running light function and the brake/turn function is not enough.  Augmentation is in the works.

I've seen the Dynamic Clusters http://www.customdynamics.com/honda_turn_signal_led.htm which have an amber turn signal circle of LEDs around the perimeter and red LEDs in the center.  They work with amber lenses, but when used with clear lenses, they are dramatically noticable.

[valky1500]

You are very correct here.

What I see as the problem to the origional post is that the LEDs dont acivate as brake lights because the positive wire from the brake and tail lights are connected to the Hoppy converter but most likely the other wire is a grounded somewhere else. This is only half the needed circuit.

The brake and running lights circuit need to be spliced and directly to the (-) of the LED lights to work as both running (dim) and brake (bright) lights.

According to Hoppy you also need to Upgrade your flasher.

Hope this helps.

[Valkpilot]

You are very correct here.

What I see as the problem to the origional post is that the LEDs dont acivate as brake lights because the positive wire from the brake and tail lights are connected to the Hoppy converter but most likely the other wire is a grounded somewhere else. This is only half the needed circuit.

The brake and running lights circuit need to be spliced and directly to the (-) of the LED lights to work as both running (dim) and brake (bright) lights.

According to Hoppy you also need to Upgrade your flasher.

Hope this helps.

Yes, you have to upgrade the flasher.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "spliced directly to the (-) of the LED lights."  In my case, the LED cluster comes pre-wired to an 1157 socket base which uses the base housing as the connection to ground, through the turn signal socket.

[valky1500]

So far we have been discusisng generally an aproach to using turn signal, running and brake lights connected together. I'm sorry it can't be more specific without knowing just how many lights are being used or what their configuration may be.

I would like to make a comment here on your statement, "They work with amber lenses, but when used with clear lenses, they are dramatically noticable", if I may.

Using red LEDs with an amber lens for turn signals make red running and bright red stop lights when glued to the lens.

[Brian]

I have a total of 6 turn/running lights, 3 on each side and using the OEM flasher. I have 4 amber lgihts on the front giving my two blinking turns on each side, hence my decission to go with the LED's on the rear.

It was MarkT or Chet that has a wiring diagram where two seperate relays are used along with diodes to do this same operation. Using the hoppy to me was an easier solution that did not take up much room under the rightside cover.

It looks like I will need to stop the by the auto store to pick up a loose 1157 socket to experiment with. This should help answer the question.

I really hate to tear into the rear turn signal housing again. The added wires in there really make it tight. If my memory serves me correctly the grounding back there is hardwired do to the fact that the rear fender is split.

[valky1500]

OK Now we are making some headway here.

There are 2 ways to look at LED lights connections. What I have been talking about is the way you have mentioned "MarkT or Chet" as using. The other way is by using the 1157 LEDs that are designed to be used in circuits along with incandescant bulbs.

With that out of the way we can now look at the circuit diagrams to see what changes in wiring need to be made so it works as we want it to.

If you notice in the Hoppy diagram using your

Rear Turn Signal Conversion
Running lights, brake lights, and signal lights

idea. http://www.barnettdh.com/taillights/taillights.htm
It calls for making 3 "Y" pigtails and branching them out to both sides that we will call the "wiring harness side" and "light side".

There are four wires going into the wiring harness side and three wires coming out of the light side. Install male bullet connectors on the wiring harness side, and female bullet connectors on the light side.

Then:

Hook 'em up

1. The turn signal connectors in the wiring harness boot are already empty (from when you disconnected your stock lights), so begin by plugging the right and left turn signal wires coming from the wiring harness side of the converter into the right and left connectors in the boot. Plug the right and left turn signal wires from your new lights into the right/brake and left/brake connectors on the wires coming from the light side of the converter.

2. Make three 'Y' pigtails using one male bullet connector, two female bullet connectors, and two short pieces of automotive primary wire for each pigtail. To do this put female connectors on one end of each piece of wire then twist together the other ends and insert them into the single male connector.

3. Locate the Brown wire for the taillight in the harness boot and disconnect it. Plug the male end of one pigtail into the wiring harness and plug the main taillight wire into one side of the Y. Plug the "taillight" wire on the wiring harness side of the converter into the other side of the Y. What we've done is bypass the converter for the main taillight.

4. Locate the Green/Yellow brake light wire in the harness boot and disconnect it. Plug your third pigtail into the brake light connector in the boot. Plug the main brake light wire into one side of the Y. Plug the "brake light" wire on the wiring harness side of the converter into the other side of the wire. Now we've bypassed the converter for the main brake light.

5. Plug your second pigtail into the taillight wire on the light side of the converter. Plug the taillight wires from your new turn signals into the pigtail. Note: You don't need this pigtail if you used one connector for both taillight wires from the new lights as mentioned in step 3 above.

6. If you have ground wires for your new turn signals, make another pigtail and plug the male end into the ground wire nexus in the wiring harness boot, then plug the ground wires from the signals into the female sides of the pigtail. Note: You don't need this pigtail if you used one connector for both ground wires from the new lights as mentioned in step 3 above.

[valky1500]

and I forgot to mention:
The magic happens when the Hoppy convertor acts as using the 2 relays and diodes mentioned by "MarkT or Chet".

[valky1500]

@Brian
I found other examples of using trailer convertors for turn, running and brake lights on the internet. They might better discribe the wiring as the Reese Trail Convertor uses the same wiring diagrams.

http://www.bugmanweb.com/gsxr/gsxrfiles/int.pdf

http://www.bugmanweb.com/gsxr/integrator.html

Hope this helps.

[valky1500]

The biggest thing to be aware of here is they are designed for 1157 bulbs. So that means that when using 1157's a single wire needs changed at 2 points. You eliminate the ground from the bulbs and connect them to the L. Brake Out and R. Brake Out of the convertor (note: #5, #6, #7).


1. Cut off the ground wires to your stock turn signals. tape off those b/w wires . they are not used.

2. The right turn HOT wire (Lg) is cut, and then connected to the module R TURN IN.

3. The Left turn signal HOT is cut and connected to the module L TURN IN.

4. Before you throw your turn signals away, find out if you might need them in order to pass your state inspection later on.

5. Cut the right w/b wire (brake light hot) and tape it off at both of the cut ends. It is not used further.

6. CUT the left w/b wire (brake light hot). The near end (end closer to the bike)is then connected to the trailer module BRAKE IN.

7. Connect the two module OUT wires as shown, to the far , severed ends of the W/B wires going into each tail light.

[Brian]

Valky1500, I sure appreciate your tracking down of this information. I stopped by advance auto on the way home today picking up a plain 1157 socket with pigtails. I connected a jumper wire to the socket shell and connected it to negative side of the car battery and installed the LED light. Using the two wires I touched each one seperately to the + battery terminal. There is a noticebale difference in the brightness of the LED's between the two wires, not on the bike. The standard bulbs have been working great. One thing I did not do and just thought about now was to touch both wires to the + which is what would happen with the brake is applied. I have been a bit worn out this week fighting off a sore throat and draining sinuses. I am done for the night. When I feel better and thinking straight I'll come back and reread this info you posted.
I have saved this thread as a bookmark in case it gets pushed off.

[valky1500]

Well actually all this is saying is that when using the convertor there is no ground on the 1157 sockets side at all. It was replaced with the running and brake lights for the intermitant use of with the dual socket 1157's.

To make this clear there are 3 wires to the 1157 bulbs.

Wire #1. The (Brown) wire is the running lights from the harness that connect into a "Y" that connect to the silver wires of both 1157 bulbs. This is the dim that does not connect to the convertor.

Wire #2. Is the White/Black that is the (+) brake line from the harness that goes into the convertor as Brake (+) and comes out as L.Brake and R.Brake respectively to connect to the Black (+) of the 1157 socket either right or left bulb.

Wire #3. Is the (+) for turn signals where 2 wires (Lt.Green for right and Black for left)  go into the convertor BUT dont come out as anything.

Only 3 wires go in and 2 wires come out of the convertor. All 3 wires of the 1157's are connected to something after the convertor except the running lights.

Note:
The running lights do not connect to the convertor at all because they connect straight threw to the running lights (dim) Brown wire of the 1157's with a "Y" connection.

If you do wire the running lights by mistake to the convertor they will interfer with the brake lights and both will stay on the dim and it will not work correctly.

[Brian]

valky,
I started to read thru these and found the wiring diagram I made up when I did this. The running light circuit is coming off the front lights directy to the new rear sockets. My convertor has 5 wires in and 4 wires out. The ground is carried through it. it appears that I did not use the ground coming out. I have hard time trying to figure out why in the one set of instructions you sent it states to disconnect the socket grounds that they are no longer needed then a few steps down the page it tells you connect the grounds????? From what I can see from this is the wiring I have done is correct with the question on the socket grounds, but don't these grounded to make the light circuit? All the incadecents are working just fine. If you don't mind I am going to dig more into this here in a few months when the weather cools down and I start doing my winter maintenance. If Issac hits us like the weatherman is predicting I might be looking into this this weekend. I have all the wiring nice and bundled and tied up nice. Once I start I want to finish with it all clean and neat.

I appreciate your time. Once I know exactly what I did I can better answer questions and possibly call superbrightLED to ask them.

[valky1500]

As in post #16 I stated:

Incandescent lights use a floating ground  but LEDs are directional and won't work where current back flow is present. This is why diodes and resistors are needed for those circumstances.

then valkpilot ansered in post#22:

In my case, the LED cluster comes pre-wired to an 1157 socket base which uses the base housing as the connection to ground, through the turn signal socket.

But you're using them for running, turn signal and brake lights. So only the brake and turn signal need to be connected to the hoppy inputs as the running lights are a pass through.

Only 2 turn signal wires (Left-Right) and 1 brake going in the hoppy and only 2 brake lines coming out. GROUND IS NOT USED HERE.

Those 1157 dual element LED light bulbs will be controlled by the hoppy to flash intermittently by using the 3 wires- black=brake (from hoppy), silver=running from a brown wire, and then B/W=floating ground for running lights only.

The reason here is because the turn sigal and brake line is split by the hoppy with the running lights passing through directly to the silver wires on both bulbs from a "Y" that's coming from a brown running light wire.

Note:
The runing light can be from the license plate light or anywhere else.

I am not sure if all hoppys are LED friendly but this makes diagnosing the LEDs easier http://www.autoparts2020.com/rsdev/part_group.jsp?PHPRJ_GROUP_ID=42387&cat=3

[Brian]

Okay guys, the weather got really nice so I decided to look into the my LED issue using the hoppy convertor today. I called SuperbrightLED this past week, the tech stated that this bulb I chose is able to work in circuits using incadecents and can be used in place of them. He feels my issue is the convertor in the way it that it may changing the voltage to use the turn signal circuit for the brake. In checking the voltage on the rear sockets, the running circuit which comes right off the front lights is around 11 volts. The brake/turn circuit coming thru the convertor is a little over 9 volts.

I disconnected the hoppy convertor input wires checking voltages everything is 11+ volts going in. I wired in my loose 1157 socket using the LED. The running is dim as expected and bright when applying the brake.

Bad convertor? Does anyone know what voltages they are seeing thru theirs?