Fork oil levels????????

[olddog1946]

Looking through the Honda manual about fork work, it gives an oil level for each fork. It does mention this when the forks are off the bike and the level checked with the forks compressed. I can find no mention anywhere about the levels while on the bike, sitting on the ground, nor do I see any reference to the number of turns to set for the right side fork..can anyone give me some insight on this???

[hubcapsc]

Looking through the Honda manual about fork work, it gives an oil level for each fork. It does mention this when the forks are off the bike and the level checked with the forks compressed. I can find no mention anywhere about the levels while on the bike, sitting on the ground, nor do I see any reference to the number of turns to set for the right side fork..can anyone give me some insight on this???

If you don't have the forks off/springs out you need to pour in an amount they specify by volume.

-Mike

[JaysGone]

Looking through the Honda manual about fork work, it gives an oil level for each fork. It does mention this when the forks are off the bike and the level checked with the forks compressed. I can find no mention anywhere about the levels while on the bike, sitting on the ground, nor do I see any reference to the number of turns to set for the right side fork..can anyone give me some insight on this???

EDIT:
8PM

I just reread chapter 13 of the OEM manuel.
It doesnt affect the shock or dampning rate where the nuts locked down on the rods.
All that does affect is the posistion of the axle holes relative to the forks and replacing the axle in the front tire.

So it appears its all in the oil weight and amount of oil used and my forks are fine.
The nuts should be at the bottom or max of the rod.
Cap screwed on fully and locked down.
In other words................I just dont like it!!!!!!

So you can read on till I give you the oil amounts needed as per OEM.
Then IGNORE all the rest.
Jay



Ive been playing with these things for over a month now close to 7 weeks I should add.
With so other issues inbetween.
Like a busted radiator......

From searching here Im looking for the "Holy Grail" been told it cant be done.
I want smoooooooth front forks.
Im also stubborn as heck when it comes to these things and DONT give up easily.

Now on to my story so far with forks.

22.7 oz for the right, 25.2 oz for the left
OEM nut position about 13 threads from the top. Which is about the mid-point.
Is what I was told here forget by whom.

I have both the OEM manual and Clymers.
Both pretty useless for me.

Im going through the crazyness now of playing with the forks.
I didnt pay any attention when I 1st took off the fork caps as mine were loose and the nuts were NOT locked down.
There is no way to measure the oil level in the left tube by just taking off the cap.
Other then what you measure when you pour it in.
Unless you have the tool to remove the retainer.
I dont.

Took the legs off the bike and dumped all the old oil.
It was the original 13+ year old stuff.
Blackish gray left side.
Red like tranny fluid in the right.
Pumped and let them drain for an hour.


1st time I used 15W on local wrenches advice, since he had oil in stock.
And cranked the retainers all the way down.
Poured in what the manual stated and had the full height, but no rebound or dampening to speak of.

2nd time around: 10w,  retainers half the way on the threaded shaft nuts locked down.
Same amounts of oil.
Still no dampening.

Just yesterday.
Loosened up both retainers even more.
I have the nuts with maybe 3/8ths of an inch left.
Still no dampening.
Im feeling every pebble in the road up through the handle bars.

Now even with the 15w and the 10w.
Upon braking.
The tubes dip so I know they work.

Very hard to find the happy medium here and Im getting real tired of this 100 degree heat to work in.
This Friday I will try the retainers locked off at about a quarter inch of thread.
Which is more or less where they were about when I 1st took them apart.
If that doesnt work to my satisfaction.
Off come the tubes dump ALL the oil put in 5w and start all over again.

In other words if your forks are working fine.
Even if the oils over 10 years old

Leave it alone!!!!!!!!!!!

I had to play with mine to get the front axle to line up again so I cold put the wheel back on.
Getting it off wasnt fun at all.

Sorry if this is more then you needed to read.
But so far just my experience here.
I did searches here and didnt find what I wanted to read.
I saw a video of how to rebuild the forks.
They are for a VTX but the legs are basically the same if not identical.

Last word of advice for all its worth.
Use 6 point sockets.
Im chewing the crap out of my fork caps doing this so many times with 12pt sockets......
I already want to order another set of caps, but wont till I get it right........

[Bone]

Did the forks in my 98 Tourer last August the seals started leaking. With 90K miles on them I put in the bush guides, sliders & seal sets. Measured the 10W oil added using the amounts from the manual. Mine felt like a new suspension and still does 1 year later. 
I don't know what is wrong with your forks it seems you have covered everything.

[JaysGone]

Im sure they are normal in my case.
I just dont like them this way.
I did a bunch of reading in the Search section and what Im looking for doesnt exist in a Valk.

OldDog is probably in the same boat as me.
Till he replies we wont really know..
I did give him the oil levels.
The nuts.....number of turns doesnt matter.
The oil is measured with the fork fully compressed.
"With the fork supported upright and the tube compressed: The Right fork takes ~ 22.7 oz.  Also measure from the top edge down to the fluid level. It should be 5.3 inches. Same install conditions: The left fork takes ~25.2 oz and the top down measure is 5.6 inches."
The nut level only has an effect on the axle level between the 2 forks.
We both will just have to get used the forks not being as smooth as we feel they should be, and/or are on most bikes Ive owned.

I know Im speaking for him and sholudnt be.
I await his reply.

[olddog1946]

I put the bike up on the lift, then unscrewed the cap, put some weight back on the wheel, undid the fork cap. The nut on the damping rod was all the way down (that's where I left it), measured the fluid and it was just over 7 1/2 " down. My thought is that the fluid is too low but don't know for sure. Since I don't have any fluid on hand, I put it all back together and will pick up  some fluid, remove the forks tomorrow and top them off to the level the manual shows. (5.3"  and 5.6") and see if that cures the clunk.

[JaysGone]

From what I have read and been told yes thats way to low fluid wise.
Was the cap locked down to the nut??, when you loosened the cap.
In reading the search section. If the cap isnt locked down some folks banging was the rod end hitting the bottom of the cap it self.
I find the only side I can measure with the retainer still in place is the right side.
The retainer on the left wont even let you use a piece of wire to measure.
It has to be removed with a special wrench.
So in my case I took the leg off dumped and pumped all the fluid out.
Measured the correct amount and then bleed it according to the instructions.
I did the same to the right side.
Reassembled it all.
Turned the nuts all the way down.
Locked the cap to the nuts on the rods.
Jacked the front end back up and tightened the caps.
I had very very little movement in the legs up and down.
I could push them and they do dip when braking.
But when riding.
I cant see any up and down movement to speak of.
Its like the tire bounces as you go down the road.
That in turn translate right up the handle bars.

From my reading thats "normal".

Now with my R*, and my Heritage.
The legs are both shock absorbers and react to the road itself.
You can see up and down movement as your riding.
Use a few ozs less per leg and the movement increases.
With the Valk..........I see little to none regardless of the fluid levels.
Yet before I took off the legs and dumped the fluid.
It rode much better.

All Ive done literaly is replace the fluids to what the OEM says the levels should be.
Locked the retainers all the way down.
Thats my quandry.
If this is "normal" Im not liking it much.

I commute with my bikes.
Ive been switching back and forth a different bike each day.
The Valk rides the stiffest of the 3.
Its not terrible, just not very smooth.

With my other bikes loosen the pinch bolts, remove the caps. Lift out the spacers, then springs just use an oil syringe and adjust fluid levels.
Ive never had to remove the legs to dump oil.
The Valk is alot of work to remove the legs and a PIA in comparisson.

Good luck with yours.

[olddog1946]

Yesterday I pulled the front end apart, and checked the oil level on the right fork as per instructions in the manual...levels looked right on..according to the Progressive instructions, light oil will help with compression, heavier oil will help with the rebound..to make a long story short, I drained the forks and refilled with 5 wt oil...still have that clunk when I exit the driveway onto the blacktop. Wasn't dressed to do any more than that. Will get it on the road a bit and see what difference it has made.

[hubcapsc]

Yesterday I pulled the front end apart, and checked the oil level on the right fork as per instructions in the manual...levels looked right on..according to the Progressive instructions, light oil will help with compression, heavier oil will help with the rebound..to make a long story short, I drained the forks and refilled with 5 wt oil...still have that clunk when I exit the driveway onto the blacktop. Wasn't dressed to do any more than that. Will get it on the road a bit and see what difference it has made.

I can't seem to find your original post, but I seem to remember reading it... 

The only "normal" clunk from that area is one your calipers can make....

I found a guy in the tech-archives who's clunk was cured by new steering head races...

http://www.valkyrieforum.com/forum/tech_archive.cgi

If you haven't searched the tech-archives, try searching on "clunk" and "fork" or "caliper" and you'll
get a lot of hits...

If I remember your previous posts, you've got new springs and have adjusted the oil level and type...
There's wear parts other than the seals in the forks, bushing and stuff, I wonder if you get clunks when
they get really worn?

-Mike

[olddog1946]

Yesterday I pulled the front end apart, and checked the oil level on the right fork as per instructions in the manual...levels looked right on..according to the Progressive instructions, light oil will help with compression, heavier oil will help with the rebound..to make a long story short, I drained the forks and refilled with 5 wt oil...still have that clunk when I exit the driveway onto the blacktop. Wasn't dressed to do any more than that. Will get it on the road a bit and see what difference it has made.

I can't seem to find your original post, but I seem to remember reading it... 

The only "normal" clunk from that area is one your calipers can make....

I found a guy in the tech-archives who's clunk was cured by new steering head races...

http://www.valkyrieforum.com/forum/tech_archive.cgi

If you haven't searched the tech-archives, try searching on "clunk" and "fork" or "caliper" and you'll
get a lot of hits...

If I remember your previous posts, you've got new springs and have adjusted the oil level and type...
There's wear parts other than the seals in the forks, bushing and stuff, I wonder if you get clunks when
they get really worn?

-Mike

My original post was concering the possibility of the steering head bearings being loose...but having had the forks repaired twice before with poor results, then taking them to the honda dealer, with yet another set of seals, bushings and sliders, and new springs, which made the clunk even worse than before. I was leaning toward the forks being the problem,,,,at any rate, after putting in the 5wt oil, I still had a clunk (but much lighter) pulling out of the driveway..I did take the bike out for a ride, running over railroad tracks, every man hole cover I saw, etc...and I find the only time I hear the clunk now is when I trasnistion from driveways to the roadway, the suspension is much more pliable..
Yes the clunk is still there, but no longer sounds like a brass hammer on aluminum..I do have new steering stem bearings on hand, but at this time have no indication of indexing or slop, so will put off changing them for now.

[JaysGone]

I tightened up the steering head last night and my clunk is alot worse today then before??
Time to read some more search results.
But also against my own feelings and running a rear tire on the front as my bikes Darkside.
I increased the front tire pressure a full 6 PSI.
From 30 to 36psi.
Much better ride.
Still stinks compared to my other bike but getting better.
Soon its back into the garage all 96 degress worth for the last time playing with the front end.
Take off the caps and crank the nuts ALL the way down.
Button it up and say to myself.
This is as good as it gets..............

[BonS]

I tightened up the steering head last night and my clunk is alot worse today then before??
Time to read some more search results.
But also against my own feelings and running a rear tire on the front as my bikes Darkside.
I increased the front tire pressure a full 6 PSI.
From 30 to 36psi.
Much better ride.
Still stinks compared to my other bike but getting better.
Soon its back into the garage all 96 degress worth for the last time playing with the front end.
Take off the caps and crank the nuts ALL the way down.
Button it up and say to myself.
This is as good as it gets..............

I don't want to hijack OldDog's thread but Jay have you ridden other Valkyries to know how they feel?
I'd love to know your opinion of how your front end feels and sounds after all your work as compared to another Valkyrie.

[JaysGone]

Nope have no clue what a Valks supposed to be like.
Bought it as a wreck a year ago and have been rebuilding it since.
So no reference to go by except the 12 other bikes Ive owned and currently have.
And the good folks here.
Time to look up clunk and calipers.
Just went for a ride and, if I just touch the front brake clunks gone.

[JaysGone]

Well my clunks gone for now.
I just took the calipers off and just reset the pads and springs back as I felt they should be.
I rode the bike without reseting the front pistons and no noises at all.
Then after a few laps pumped the front lever and alls well again for now.
Added another 2 psi to the front tire now at 38 psi and less bounce to it.

For some reason and I guess the Valks front end is a bit more unique in its set up.
Having one side a dampner and the other side being the shock.
Since you cant control the amount of eighter side by fluid levels and where the nuts are on the shaft only sets the hole position for the axle to go back in.
Im resigned to this is as good as it gets.
Still am not happy with it but then it is what it is.
Just different.

[Ricky-D]

If you remove the axle from the shocks so there is nothing holding it in place too much you should be able to feel a little slop in how the two main parts of the shock fit.

The slop is the clunk which you cannot feel under normal conditions.

New internal parts will help but are not a "cure all" since there are more wear areas that can only be replaced by buying new shock tubes and sliders.

Heavier oil will attenuate the looseness but it will still be there.

Both sides (shocks) are shock absorbers, the right side however has a damper assembly internally mounted. The only damper in the front end suspension.

***

[BigEagle]

Interesting read.  I've been screwing around with my forks ever since I installed Daryl's TT.  Never have been happy with the Valks front end.  In my case, I threw in some Progressive springs and 15w fork oil the same time I did the triple tree and the bike rode like a freakin tank.  Since then, I've tried...
(1) removing the fork extensions that were part of the TT mod. This caused a very unsettling high speed wobble so I...
(2) put the fork extensions back in and replaced the fork oil with 7w. Ride was still way too stiff. High speed wobble was still there, but less pronounced. BTW, the wobble started only after the TT mod which Daryl explained was due to me not lowering my back end, which I will do as soon as I get my 440's rebuilt (different story). Until then I will always have some degree of high speed wobble so I won't mention it again.
(3) then I took out the Progressive fork springs and threw the stockers back in. There was a very slight improvement in ride smoothness, but at the cost of that front end dive with heavy front brakes returning with the stock springs.
(4) Then I removed 50cc oil out of each fork. I did this 3 times, each time 50cc more oil out of each fork. Each time there was so little difference I was wondering if I was just imagining it. At any rate, it didn't help much, if any.
(5) I decided it was the TT fork extensions compressing the fork springs that was making the ride so damn stiff 'cause no matter how much oil I removed, the forks never compressed under normal riding... only if I hit the front brakes or something large like pot hole or speed bump. I'd watch the forks while riding and they were as stiff as my woody... solid as a rock.
So now I'm gonna take out the TT fork extensions and the Progressive springs, top up my fork oils to spec and just live with the fact that the Valk's front end is what it is... wanting.

[BonS]

Interesting read.  I've been screwing around with my forks ever since I installed Daryl's TT.  Never have been happy with the Valks front end.  In my case, I threw in some Progressive springs and 15w fork oil the same time I did the triple tree and the bike rode like a freakin tank.  Since then, I've tried...
(1) removing the fork extensions that were part of the TT mod. This caused a very unsettling high speed wobble so I...
(2) put the fork extensions back in and replaced the fork oil with 7w. Ride was still way too stiff. High speed wobble was still there, but less pronounced. BTW, the wobble started only after the TT mod which Daryl explained was due to me not lowering my back end, which I will do as soon as I get my 440's rebuilt (different story). Until then I will always have some degree of high speed wobble so I won't mention it again.
(3) then I took out the Progressive fork springs and threw the stockers back in. There was a very slight improvement in ride smoothness, but at the cost of that front end dive with heavy front brakes returning with the stock springs.
(4) Then I removed 50cc oil out of each fork. I did this 3 times, each time 50cc more oil out of each fork. Each time there was so little difference I was wondering if I was just imagining it. At any rate, it didn't help much, if any.
(5) I decided it was the TT fork extensions compressing the fork springs that was making the ride so damn stiff 'cause no matter how much oil I removed, the forks never compressed under normal riding... only if I hit the front brakes or something large like pot hole or speed bump. I'd watch the forks while riding and they were as stiff as my woody... solid as a rock.
So now I'm gonna take out the TT fork extensions and the Progressive springs, top up my fork oils to spec and just live with the fact that the Valk's front end is what it is... wanting.

Since you own the Progressive springs (and what rate are they and what is your body weight?) have you considered cutting them down?

[JaysGone]

BigEagle

I unfortunatly have to agree wiith you.
All my playing around started with taking out the Progressives.
Im happier if thats possible, with the stock springs in and the 10w for now.
I will how ever, even if its a waste of time and money.
Try 5wt, using about 6 ozs less per side.
In the winter too dang hot to play with this anymore now.

[olddog1946]

Today's first long ride beat me all to H--l and back..that's with the 5 wt oil in there..I guess I could add a lead fairing, gain a couple of hundred pounds...Not:  stock springs will be going back in before I take another ride over 100 miles.

[BonS]

Has anyone tried Race Tech springs with or without their Gold Valve Emulators? I have a set of their springs and their gold valve emulators waiting for me to get a round to it. I had a leaking seal in one of the down tubes but I was able to stop the leaking with a Motion Pro Seal Mate. So with the crisis over I've been putting off tearing down my forks but have been following along as you all have struggled with the Progressive springs and oil weight issues. I sure hope the Race Tech system isn't as big a pain in the a$$ as you all have been going through!!

[JaysGone]

Has anyone tried Race Tech springs with or without their Gold Valve Emulators? I have a set of their springs and their gold valve emulators waiting for me to get a round to it. I had a leaking seal in one of the down tubes but I was able to stop the leaking with a Motion Pro Seal Mate. So with the crisis over I've been putting off tearing down my forks but have been following along as you all have struggled with the Progressive springs and oil weight issues. I sure hope the Race Tech system isn't as big a pain in the a$$ as you all have been going through!!

Better you report how the emulators work when you get around to them.
A few guys tried them in their Yamahas over the years and they were basically a waste of money.
Just a different valve was the opion.
I know the front ends are very different.
But I for one am not spending another nickel after the 5w to try and improve a bad situation.

[SinisterValkyrie]

I'd like to know how  Race Tech's do. I was told that my Valk had Progressives installed and the ride is as stated, pretty bumpy. My Harley was much smoother that this, but, I love my Valk...I'll deal 

[valknomad]

I NEED and want to replace my fork springs, but the threads are discouraging.  The front end on the Valk is crap compared to other bikes I've owned.   To complicated for it's own good.  Any "encouragement" would be greatly appreciated.   Thanks for all the Technical posts from members.

[hubcapsc]

Any "encouragement" would be greatly appreciated. 

I love my forks/w progressive springs. I mostly ride on curvy bumpy mountain roads. Stanley
Steamer loves his forks/w progressive springs - he rides pretty darn fast down curvy bumpy
mountain roads.

The dealer actually put my springs in, but they didn't change the seals and it was leaking
almost right away. I borrowed the special tool for the left side, took the forks apart (I'm the
third or fourth owner of my bike), replaced the bushings that showed wear, put in new seals,
followed the manual, carefully used the right amount of fork oil. It wasn't any hassle, went 50,000
miles with no issues until the left fork seal finally started leaking this summer...

The difference between OEM springs and progressive springs is like night and day, there's
something wrong if the brake dive doesn't go away with progressives.

Valkyrie forks seem a lot less complicated than forks on motocross bikes I've rebuilt...

-Mike

[JaysGone]

As the negative Nelly here.
The fork systems are so different from most crusiers.
Im beginning to relise you cant make a silk purse from a sows ear here.
Like most of the systems on the Valk.
They are over engineered compared to any other front end Ive had to play with.
Fine tunning this front end is not an easy thing.

[olddog1946]

I'd like to know how  Race Tech's do. I was told that my Valk had Progressives installed and the ride is as stated, pretty bumpy. My Harley was much smoother that this, but, I love my Valk...I'll deal 

I believe FORDMANO ? , had race tech goodies installed in his...maybe he'll chime in here.

I have decided I will try taking a couple of ounces of oil out before I go back to the OEM springs. I do like getting rid of that front end dive with the oem's. Worst that can happen is the ride still sucks and I'll get to take the forks apart yet one more time.

[JaysGone]

Im waiting on you too Olddog before I do anything else with this front.
Too dang hot down here....
As we seem to be mirroring each other here looking for Nirvana.............Only to find Newark NJ.

[olddog1946]

Im waiting on you too Olddog before I do anything else with this front.
Too dang hot down here....
As we seem to be mirroring each other here looking for Nirvana.............Only to find Newark NJ.

May be a day or two yet...Moses Lake, Wa and Newark, NJ......twin cities,,,,who'd a thunk it?

[JaysGone]

Olddog
Just to let you know.
2 hours yesterday to take every thing down
3 hours today in my usuual 90+ degree heat.
I finnished the front end for the last time regardless of out come.

I used 5 weight.
Stock springs
18 ozs right
20 ozs left
It seems fine up to 35 mph anyway around the complex a few times.

And Ooooooh yah if you smell something burning as your zipping around the block.

You might want to make sure you took off the jack stand ADAPTER!!!!!!!!!!!
1st time Ive used it I might add but thats no excuse....
Needless to say I was burning through the rubber bungee cord and if that thing had fallen off at the wrong angle at the wrong time.
I probably wouldnt be here right now to type this.

[olddog1946]

I went with the 5wt oil and left the progressive springs in. It helped a lot but I still have that damn clunk. I will probably live with that for awhile, but I ordered the tool to take out the springs and once I get around to it, I plan on putting the stock springs back in  and using 20 wt oil. I am hoping the 20 wt will help with the front end dive.

[JaysGone]

I used 15w the 1st time and it didnt budge at all.
Like a rock.
No good.