Head Bearings? yep another one.

[fordmano]

I did not feel any click or indexing and I have tried to adjust the original set a couple times now with very little improvement in handling. I have had for a long time a sway or wobble almost like the tires would lean over on the axles.  So I decided to finally get a new set of quality bearings for both axles and the head pipe.  I could not feel any looseness or roughness in any of these bearings until this time when I removed the wheels I did notice a very minor amount of roughness type of feeling on one bearing on each axle just happens to be that the left rear is the one that felt rough when first removed.

As opposed to some specifically Ricky D. (no disrespect Ricky, you have a wonderful wealth of experience and knowledge that I have taken advantage of over the last few years) I am blindly replacing these units this will leave me with only one more possible place for instability and that would be the swing arm bearings,,, That won't be done by me if it works out to also be an issue.

I took the cheap route and ended up spending a lot more than I should have in the long run. I ordered some bearing off of E-Bay and found that the ones for the front wheel even though from an American company were actually built in China,,, and the rears I went with the double row set on both left and right.  The ones I ordered actually had steel seals and I just wasn't comfortable with running these now that there will be no seal on the left side... So I found a local bearing house (bearingengineering.com) while searching online and they were able to supply me with SKF brand, F.A.G. brand & consolidated brand bearings these are all Western Europe made bearings? WTF! oh well way better than the china crap the bearing guy assured me these were considered TOP TIER bearings in all cases... I ordered the set of All Balls for the head pipe and found like others have said they are china made, but I got a seal out of them whoopee. These brand new All Balls bearings were very rough and one set even clicked while turning them by hand...not a good way to start out.

Here is a picture of the head bearing races before I removed them from the bike.



Honestly those marks cannot be felt even with a bare fingernail...
Now I have to do the install.

I will report back in a week or so when the bike is back on the road. I even found that one side of one front brake pads was worn really low and all the other pads are hardly worn at all so it looks like a caliper rebuild may be in order. Financially I will probably just do the clean up and lube to start with ended up buying 2 sets of pads for the front never replace one set on an axle unless that axle only has one set... I paid I think it was less than $40 shipped and they are brand new from Mother Honda stock the ones in the bag not the ones on the card.

[fordmano]

Here she is up on the jack stands yet again...


Side note I am also installing my Belly Tank FINALLY!!!!

[Blackduck]

Steel "seals" are not usually seals, just shields with a running clearance that is not fully sealed.
You need "rubber" type seals.
Nothing much wrong with the bearing cups, just polished where the bearing rollers normally rest. That would turn into grooves in the long term but should not have caused you any problems at the moment.
Cheers Steve

[fordmano]

Well here we are as of 2 days ago,,, things aren't looking so good overall.
Ended up having to pay someone actually press the lower bearing onto the stem (triple clamp).
Now the HigEND Top tier bearing dosen't fit at all. The internal diameter is over .038 tooooo small so it won't clear the threads at all. Seeing that most of the load is on the bottom bearing I will be using the CHEAPO All Balls set since they fit as they should and they are much easier to deal with if they give problems in the future,,, Not sure if the good bearing was made incorrectly or packaged incorrectly.

Here is a very upsetting picture.  :'(  

[fordmano]

The good news is that after pulling the entire rear end out pumpkin and attached axle shaft and even the U-joint of course I heavily greased everything I saw NO signs of any wear on anything at any point...

So all that is left now is getting the front calipers cleaned up and lubed hopefully that takes care of the sticky on the right side caliper, and I still need to cut the tank and install the bung for the fuel lines from the belly tank... after that I can slap it all back together and maybe get some riding in...

[valky1500]

@fordmano

It's very easy to damage bearings and/or to take away their precision and life by the method used to seat them.

Those marks you see on the race are where the balls touch the centerless-ground bearing race when doing their job. At those points will be the cause of damage, if any, to put flat spots on the balls when installing. This is why the bearings are press-fitted into place by the race only.

And that's a universal knowledge.

[98valk]

did u check the upper shock bushings? conditions u discribe are caused by worn bushings.
My steering head bearings need to be replaced, I have indexing, been this way for over 10k miles, bike is still rock stable.

[fordmano]

I

@fordmano

It's very easy to damage bearings and/or to take away their precision and life by the method used to seat them.

Those marks you see on the race are where the balls touch the centerless-ground bearing race when doing their job. At those points will be the cause of damage, if any, to put flat spots on the balls when installing. This is why the bearings are press-fitted into place by the race only.

And that's a universal knowledge.

I am absolutely sure I am not the sharpest tool in the shed and with that said I am not sure what you are trying to tell me? By the way, Head bearings for the VALK are not ball type bearings I think they are called tappered roller bearings?
All bearings and or races that require any pressure to install were installed by pressing only on the press fit side of said race. Sorry if I wrote something in my descriptions that was worded oddly or possibly incorrectly or misleading of my actual problems or repair methods.

I relish in any and all comments or instruction. Thank you.

[fordmano]

did u check the upper shock bushings? conditions u discribe are caused by worn bushings.
My steering head bearings need to be replaced, I have indexing, been this way for over 10k miles, bike is still rock stable.

Shock bushings, yep they look fine to me and I know you had no idea but they are actually almost brand new. They are as new as the shocks are, I installed new 416's just last year and then had a problem with one side the shock bottomed out and destroyed the internal rubber bumper/bushing so I sent them back to progressive and they rebuilt them and verified spring rate was appropriate for my use (all at no cost other than shipping) do the current shock upper and lower bushing have less than 2,000 miles probably less than 1,500 miles on them and looked new when I pulled them to remove the rear wheel, drive shaft and U-Joint. The instability (handling issues have been partially evident since the bike was less than 500 miles old) started with a little tank slap and I adjusted the head bearings at some point early on then with less than 3,500 miles I went Dark Side and then the what feels like wheel wobble or tilt started so it never has gotten any better.

[Skinhead]

Have you checked the tires for runout or belt separation?

[fordmano]

Have you checked the tires for runout or belt separation?

Problem existed on factory original tires, Yes it still had mother hondas original tires on her she only had 232 miles on it when inbought it in 2005. Then also on new cobra front & Falken C/T rear also with second model of C/T and now still the same on brand new (as of last year) Venoms yes they were spin balanced and I added Dyna Beads. Rear tire is now showing cupping but issue was happening when tires were brand new.

Bearing supplier said a bearing can actually be bad even though it feels ok to the hand even when loading with something like the axle for that tire it feels good, but will or can show when under full load. I am hoping after I get it all back together the problem is magically gone. At this point I really don't care what the problem is I just need it gone and I don't care if I ever figure out exactly which bearing was the problem.... I love my bike but if I don't get these issues fixed she will have to go and be replaced with another like her or something newer and different if it has to be...

[Ricky-D]

With everything being removed from the steering stem, it becomes very easy to feel any irregularities within the bearing system in the stem.

Indexing is hard to feel when all the parts are hanging on the front end.

You know, the cables, wires, handlebars, shocks and all the rest restrict a true sensitive feel in most all cases except the worst.

Most all the experiences I have had with indexed steering bearings were the result of front end collisions and the indexing was pretty easy to recognize.

I can imagine that there is a possibility of indexing the bearing thru improper installation.  Which also I feel is the cause for most second generation bearing replacement in the wheels, turning sour.

***

[fordmano]

Well good news sort of, I have found the bearing cage for the upper head bearing is extremely loose I mean almost having the bearings fall out kinda loose.

But I have also found out that the All-Balls top bearing is actually an oversize inside diameter.
Ok so the factory original bearing part number is 4T-CR-0574 and is 26mm X 47mm X 15mm
The All balls replacement number is 32005/X and measures out at 1.024 or 26mm inside diameter... Now the industry standard size for that bearing number is actually 25mm inside diameter or .984 so the industry standard size will NOT fit  but after some googling I found a few articles that mention the 32005/X-26 is an over size or special size..
For now I will use the All-Balls upper bearing but will continue my quest for a higher quality replacement to have on hand just incase the All-Balls fails.

Damn, we'll at least I found some bad or lousy bearings. So the count is one left rear bearing seemed to not feel proper, one front wheel bearing didn't feel proper kinda of gritty and drug in one direction of rotation, and the upper head or stem bearing is extremely loose in its cage... Now to get it all back together and see if my efforts were completely justified...

[T.P.]

I posted this back in 2010 about head bearing options.

T.P.
Member

Posts: 1255


VRCC State of Minnesota Representative.

Apple Valley, Minnesota.


     Re: Steering head bearing replacement
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2010, 04:33:20 PM » Quote Modify Remove 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

HEAD BEARINGS !!!!!   Just back from TULL Bearing of Minneapolis.   INTERESTING !!!  While the "ALLBALLS" bearings cross reference to the 32005x and the 32006x, the inside dimensions have been changed............the stock 32005x has a inside diameter of 25mm and the AB has 26mm stamped on the ring.   so a stock bearing will be too small.......Dick at Tull said, he has motorcycle, ATV and snowmobile guys bring in bearings all the time with altered specs......you can't change the dimensions after they are hardened.  so the only options are OEM or ALLBALLS.  T.P.
 
 
 Report to moderator    74.36.103.15
 

[fordmano]

Thanks T.P.

I had searched a few times and never ran across your post, just figured I should post up any possibly positive info as to help others.

This is just one of them pains in the butt issues.

4T-CR-0574 is the original stock reference number and it looks like a lot of bikes of course mostly Honda. Looks like some dirt bikes use the same bearing but might be used as the lower stem bearing... Looks like these might only be made in Japan, Korea & China is all I could find.

So it's gonna be AllBalls for now.

[amazngrace]

I remember a couple of years back,  a member was having wobble
problems that were driving him nuts. After trying everything else one or
 more times, it turned out to be the swingarm bearings. Just something
to keep in mind in case nothing else works.

...ED

[fordmano]

Considered the swing arm already I just don't have the tool so I figured I should start with problems I can handle with what I have. If problem still exists then I think I will let the local stealer have a go at the swing arm bearing adjustment or replacement.

[fordmano]

Got some work done this afternoon, progress is good even when it is slow and in small amounts.

For some crazy reason I can't seem to remember how the throttle cables route around through the tripple clamp...? .

.

This really sucks always working outside,,, at least I am in California so the weather is almost perfect almost all of the time,,,, Someday I will get back into my actual garage...

[fordmano]

Just because I like to share my labor so much,, here are some more pictures during this round of  maintenance, repairs and a couple improvements.

I am finally installing my Belly Tank, so as reccomended I had the fuel bung welded in by a radiator shop.

Roughed up the entire surface of the underside of the tank to repaint it.


Then it was time to shoot some paint.


Not too bad for rattle can and in an area that shouldn't be seen very often...

But I am just never happy with good enough....

[fordmano]

Well we all know heat is not the friend of fuel, so what can we do to try and drop some temp from our fuel????
Now from my old days way back when I was building low budget horse power and using any means I could find or figure out,,, a reflective color as white or silver will help drop temps in a fuel tank so I just happened to have some "Chrome Spray paint" left over from making a couple oil filters better looking than black or blue...



Now lets get the supplied with teh belly tank fitting in and teh Pingel petcock.


Now thats nice looking...

[fordmano]

The finished product.




Now I have a very reflective surface in case I decide to install some LED's under the tank this should help bounce and disperse the light under the tank and over the engine...

[fordmano]

So the next item on my list or repairs and maintenance is the HID lights, the set I installed as headlights on ballast gave up a while back and I just swapped out the original head light bulb and kept on rolling. So since the fairing was coming off I started shopping for a new ballast and WOW!!! I found a MINI set of truly waterproof digital ballasts and a set was only $19.xx shipped so I ordered one set... When I received them I saw how small they are and instantly decided that I need to swap out the big bulky set from my HID fog lights also... after some inspection it looked like these wouldn’t work for the head lights so let’s install this set on the fog lights and make the pods a bit easier to remove in the future... The new ballasts even have a mounting bracket/hole location...

Here is what ths old ballasts for the fog lights looked like and how I mounted them..





This was all inside the pods one on each side, not too cramped just the limitations of the wire length made removel and installation of the pods a pain.

[fordmano]

And this is what has replaced that setup. The small blue box is what we are focusing on here.. sorry about the low quality pictures it was almost 02:00in the AM. These are about 1/2 or maybe even only 1/3 the size of the original ballasts.





You can barely see the ballast behind the light bucket.


Now after mounting these for the fog lights I did some looking and some thinking and some more thinking and then some testing and low and behold I figured out that they will work for the headlamps as well, the problem was the headlights need a second set of wires to activate the HI/LO feature on the headlights and I thought the required wires came from the ballasts and they don't they come from the wire harness suppplied with the original set of HID headlights,,, well so I plugged in one of these new MINI ballasts and wow the head lights work properly when all the wires from the wire harness are plugged in properly. SOOooooooo back onto my handy dandy iPhone and ordered another set (from Ebay) to replace the set in the fairing for the headlights....They will be here by next Tuesday.

[fordmano]

Back at it over the last few days,, again not a lot finished but something is better than nothing.


Yes I know my front rim looks like CRAP, that is due to my adopted saved from death Brother-In-Laws dog,, he is a pisser. Apperantly he likes to lift the leg on my front rim,,,, I am not even going to fix the rim until this dog has past away and is gone since the rim is already pitted from his acid piss,,, never saw an animal piss with such staining and acidic reaction to things... teh wife just could not allow this dog to be put to death just because her brother and sister-in-law are finacial idiots and have lost everything even with ours and both sides grand parents helping out,,, not the dogs fualt but he doesnt deserve to die just for that reason, now the ruining of my rim may bring him to death shortly...

just about done with the front end,,, waiting on the replacement retainer for the right side caliper...
After removing and reinstalling the chrome lower fork leg covers now I know why I got such a good deal on them they are a PAIN in the ARSE to deal with... But I sure do like the look of them way better than the plain fork legs.

[fordmano]

Over the next few days I hope to have the fuel system finished up and the carbs synched again. I am having a miss at idle up to around 4500rpm under full throttle it is not noticed at all right from idle to 6K but if the throttle is held at any RPM it will pop or miss and it is not really consistant like a bad plug or out of time would be normally.

The belly tank is operational although it is not wired to the ingition yet that is just a simple wiring thing. I did find I had a fuel leak under the airbox so off the airbox came,,, I hate that task... turns out my little section of new as of last year fuel line from my dan-marc shut off valve and the "T" for the carb banks has gotten dried out and split hmmmm, .I thought it was a bad clamp so either way the airbox had to come out.