Alternator/Battery woes

[DrewDanube]

I'm posting here b/c the resident alternator geniuses are all from Texas...that and I LIKE this place better than the national tech forum. 
My battery died last night.  I figured, no biggie...its an old battery.  Jump start worked but then the bike died and could not be resuscitated.  I got it towed home and got a ride to Wally world for a replacement battery.  (Side note: Wally carries the right battery and it actually has a WARRANTY...1 month full replacement, 6 month prorated but still...a friggin warranty!)
I charge it up over night, drop it in this morning and the bike fires up like a champ.  Makes me think the battery has been sick for a while.  The previous owner was nice enough to write the install date on the battery...and it is a 3+ year old battery.  I decide to charge up the old battery, because last time I went through this (different bike...oddly enough same battery), the little "check battery" light came on pretty much immediately on my trickle charger.  This time, it just charged the battery. 
So I decide its time to do some more investigating...I'm having flashbacks of Rocketman's woes of guessing how far he can go on a fully charged battery and no alternator...
Battery test from wally, before I get my core charge back, is that the battery needs charge, is spitting out 11.87 volts and 176CCA.  Almost a volt down and 24 cca's down.  Sick yes...leave me stranded sick...I don't think so... but maybe?
Autozone alternator test (that I did myself b/c they didn't believe me that my bike did have an alternator...) showed that the voltage was low...only pushing 12.2volts at idle (~900-950 Rpm). 
My questions:
1. Was the battery sick enough to leave me stranded?
2. Is my alternator dying?
2a. Did anyone ever find a reputable rebuild shop that didn't suck like a shop vac?


p.s. of course this all happens the week that the soon to be ex-wife is out of town w/ the only running vehicle.  I'm borrowing my dad's pickup until I know I can ride the cycle w/o being stranded again.  AAA will only tow me 6 more times b/w now and July 22!

[Black Dog]

I'm not a guru, and not from Texas...    But, I do believe that your battery was just sick enough to cause you some grief.  The Valk requires a lot of spark to fire up.  She may spin like crazy, but if the voltage drops low enough, she won't fire...

One thing you said does cause me some concern.  You said you jump started it, and it ran, but then died?  Did it die, while you were riding, or did you shut it off, and couldn't restart it?  If it died while riding, I think you may need to look further than just the battery.

Good luck.

Black Dog

[1FAST6]

I got a rebuilt alt from M.A.R.S. about 2 years ago.  He had it rewound to give 65 amps.  Been very happy ever since.  He also sells parts, I bought a bearing to have my old one rebuilt in a local shop before I bought the hi output one.  It sounded like a box of rocks after about 2 months and I figured the local bozos damaged the bearing when they rebuilt it.  Got the Ho one and swapped them out.  Found the impeller nut was loose.  My buddie has the old ine in his STD now for just over a year with no issues.  Checl the old tech board for "MARS" or "M.A.R.S." to find the contact info.  Great guy, knows his stuff, vey reliable, prices are reasonable, no affiliation, just a satisfied customer.

[DrewDanube]

One thing you said does cause me some concern.  You said you jump started it, and it ran, but then died?  Did it die, while you were riding, or did you shut it off, and couldn't restart it?  If it died while riding, I think you may need to look further than just the battery.

I push started it, it ran and was idling ok.  I had to call my ride to have them meet me at the house and the bike died at idle, 2-3 minutes later.  My educated guess was the battery was sucking so much juice that it couldn't keep the bike going.  This is an I/S, so I didn't really think it would be an issue, since the alternator is supposed to kick out full-juice at idle?

[Tinman]

Well Drew 12.2 at the rpm you describe may not mean a bad alt.  Check it at at least 2k to 3k. Should be 14V.
BTW Mark's alt is out again. I'm thinking there is something going on with his bike like one of the addons shorting or drawing to much.
Anyway I would check the alt again at a higher RPM. If it is still low it could be brushes or the famous open rotor.
Mine went out at approx 30k miles and I replaced and have right at 50k now with no problems.
If you are stranded in the daytime and need to get home pull the headlight fuse.
Remember the IS has 2 power hungry headlight bulbs.

[DrewDanube]

Thank you!  Thats exactly what I was wondering.  I was using a alternator tester at Autozone, which is designed for cars. 
Will try just getting out the ol' multimeter tomorrow!

[Mr.BubblesVRCCDS0008]

I lost an alt. 200 miles from home once it was a rebuilt at that time. I rented a uhaul bought tiedown and  lipped on home. It cost about 300 buck for truck, gas ,and tiedowns. Anyway ordered the goldwing replacement from DHL the next day had it overnighted to the house total 249 best money  I ever spent. I have a volt guage on the bike  now and I always keep an eye on it while riding. I also had the old one rebuilt for a spare (regulator had gone south on it).

[Rocketman]

Yes, Mark's is out again.  I did set a personal record for miles on this particular Valkyrie without an alternator failure:  ~3000!  That's phenomenal!
OK, no it's not phenomenal, but it's still a record.  By a factor of three over the previous record, and a factor of 10-15 over the previous average.  I'm rather pissed about the whole thing.

Anyway, you asked for advice.  Check your voltage as you rev up from idle up to 3k-5k.  If you're not at ~14V by 3k, you've got alternator troubles.  (you really should use the new battery for this test, but I think you were going to do that anyway...)
If you have alternator troubles, perform the following process:
1) Pull the old alternator.  This step has caused lots of consternation in the past, but I can definitively say that with practice, it is...  still a pain.
2) Throw the old alternator as far as you can into Galveston bay.  Use a catapult if you have one available.
3)  I'm still working on developing step 3.  I'll get back to you on that.

You might be able to tell I'm a little annoyed by the whole process.

In case you aren't cursed by the alternator gods, the following process might work:
1) pull the old alternator (seriously, with practice, it can be done reasonably.  I will help if you're willing to wait till I get back from Alabama, but I just got here, so that could be a while)
2) Buy a rebuilt one from MARS, or a Goldwing version (needs a minor mod, easy to do) from your parts supplier of choice.
3) Slap the new one in (once again, I can help if you want to wait.  Putting it in is harder than pulling it out, believe it or not).
4) thank your lucky stars that you're not riding the AlternatorKiller that I have, and ride on happily.

One final thought:
This could be just worn brushes, in which case you'll get off easily for cost.  You won't need the new or rebuilt alternator, just brushes.  The test and brush replacement procedure are on Shoptalk, I believe.  If you can't find them, holler.  I'll help out some more then.

Mark

[HayHauler]

My $.02...
My Interstate goes from about 13.2-13.4 at idle to 14-14.2 around 1500 rpm.  This is just off idle.  I was wondering if my battery was getting charged while sitting at a light.  13.2 isn't enough to charge, just maintain.  I think my battery might be getting weak, because of the 13.2 at idle, but I don't know if that is bad or not.

P.S.  Sorry to hear about the alternator problems again there Mark!

Hay  

[Mr.BubblesVRCCDS0008]

Mark when you changed your alt. did you replace the rubber pieces that drive the unit? Mine were broken and very hard. Just wondering it seemed to help my installation on the new one.

[1FAST6]

My IS will go dead at idle after about 20-30 minutes.  OK at stop lights etc., but I was troubleshooting a speaker wire when I discovered this.  Doesn't do much charging below 2K RPM.  If you're idle is below 900-1000 RPM, it will die faster.

[Rocketman]

Mark when you changed your alt. did you replace the rubber pieces that drive the unit? Mine were broken and very hard. Just wondering it seemed to help my installation on the new one.

They looked good, but I didn't check for hardness.  They weren't broken.

[godfire]

Hey Rocketman,
Have you put an amp-clamp on that alternator eater?
It should be pretty easy to figure out what is going wrong with one.
gf

[Tinman]

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!! Godfire!!!
I have been trying everything short of going to Rocketman's house and testing myself to get him to put an amp probe on that thing and comparing it to a good working bike.
Now he as a second opinion on that one...

Balls in your court Rocketman!...

[DrewDanube]

Update:
I took the bike to a different autoparts store to retest the alternator.  Today, the alternator tested dead.  So its pushing less than the 11.8 volts that the battery was showing.  Its parked and I'm ordering a rebuilt alternator from MARS.  (Ironically, as I write this, the AdSense banner at the top of the page is for his site...).  220 shipped, with 50 of that refunded when I mail back the old alternator.  I don't need the H.O. version...I don't have anything extra that I plug in. 
Thanks all! 

[godfire]

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!! Godfire!!!
I have been trying everything short of going to Rocketman's house and testing myself to get him to put an amp probe on that thing and comparing it to a good working bike.
Now he as a second opinion on that one...

Balls in your court Rocketman!...

An alternator is all about current. A voltmeter can help....but if you want the rest of the story you need an amp meter or even easier an amp clamp!

[Rocketman]

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!! Godfire!!!
I have been trying everything short of going to Rocketman's house and testing myself to get him to put an amp probe on that thing and comparing it to a good working bike.
Now he as a second opinion on that one...

Balls in your court Rocketman!...

A) I don't have an ampclamp.
B) I've been told by people who ought to know that the rotor won't open up due to electrical load.  THis supports my gut reaction that it would blow diodes before it would open the rotor.

That all being said, it doesn't explain why she's eating alternators for breakfast.

[godfire]

B) I've been told by people who ought to know that the rotor won't open up due to electrical load. 

...but a couldn't faulty ground cause the rotor to open?.. Doesn't the regulator decide how much current the rotor needs for the desired output? If there is a grounding issue the regulator wouldn't know how much current it is pumping into the rotor..... What else could possibly cause that many rotors to open?

Anyhow good luck, I hope you find the demon and destroy it! 

[Rocketman]

...but a couldn't faulty ground cause the rotor to open?.. Doesn't the regulator decide how much current the rotor needs for the desired output? If there is a grounding issue the regulator wouldn't know how much current it is pumping into the rotor..... What else could possibly cause that many rotors to open?

Honestly, I don't know about the faulty ground.  As for the regulator  deciding current for the rotor:  I believe that the regulator would blow up before the rotor would, but I don't have any hard data on that.
I read a low resistance connection between the alternator case and the negative terminal on the battery, so at least that ground is good (unless it's intermittent somehow...).
I'm open to all interpretations.  Just trying to talk it through.

[godfire]

I'm open to all interpretations.  Just trying to talk it through.

I’m not trying to tell you what is wrong, I just hate to see anyone suffer through multiple failures. And I'm far from being an alternator expert, but around 20 years ago I was working as an electrical engineer for a sign company. We had a couple of vans that had portable message centers that ran off of the van's electrical system.

We modified the regulator output to the rotor so the alternator could anticipate large load changes.
In cars there are two basic types of regulators: Type A, where one end of the rotor is tied to the output and the regulator grounds the other end to supply more current, and Type B, where one end of the rotor is tied to ground and the regulator supplies a voltage to the other end to control current.

I don't know what regulator is used in a Valk alternator, but grounding issues could give both types problems.

The diodes probably are rated for at least 50v so if the regulator is overdriving the rotor the battery would suffer the most. When the bike was running did you ever notice a sulfur odor?


This drawing below is simplified and I may have left something out. I just wanted to have something to look at as I thought about this. I really don't see much that could cause a rotor to open unless you are just the most unlucky alternator buyer ever.

Anyhow, just trying to help. Good luck.

[john]

  .... easy for you to say       ???

[RainMaker]

Here's my drawing describing the problem:

[Rocketman]

The diodes probably are rated for at least 50v so if the regulator is overdriving the rotor the battery would suffer the most. When the bike was running did you ever notice a sulfur odor?

This drawing below is simplified and I may have left something out. I just wanted to have something to look at as I thought about this. I really don't see much that could cause a rotor to open unless you are just the most unlucky alternator buyer ever.

Anyhow, just trying to help. Good luck.

You are being helpful.  I appreciate it.  Negative on the sulur odor.  Positive on the unlucky.  I'll study the drawings a bit, and figure out what I can learn from them.

Here's my drawing describing the problem:

You, on the other hand, are NOT being helpful.  Accurate, but not helpful.  (:

[RainMaker]

You, on the other hand, are NOT being helpful.  Accurate, but not helpful.  (:

I have a drawing of the hydrogen leak problem, too.

[HayHauler]

So, what do you think Mark???  I think RainMaker needs a real job!!  hahahahahaha, RM, me and the wife are in stitches!

Hay 

[godfire]

Rainmaker,
Please accept my apologies for my halfassed drawings.
When NCR let me go they didn't let me bring home my workstation.
Pencil and paper are all I got.
Sorry
gf

[RainMaker]

AW, heck.  I was just having fun.  Didn't mean to make you feel bad.  Your drawings did the job.   No offense meant.

I used the Paint program and a mouse to do mine and they are terrible. But they made my wife giggle.

[Rocketman]

I have a drawing of the hydrogen leak problem, too.

I forwarded your drawing on to John Shannon (Shuttle Program Manager).  He put it to good use, and the leak has been stopped.
(I think he crumpled it up and jammed it in the hole)

[HayHauler]

I KNEW those engineers would fix it!!!  hahahaha

Made me and the wife chuckle too RainMaker!

Hay 

[DrewDanube]

Update and a question for Mark...
Got my MARS rebuilt alternator installed Thursday.  Bike is way happier...can feel a difference in throttle response, making me think my alternator may have been low on the volts for a while.  Radio seems louder too...hmm. 
I got the rebuilt one and between that and the pictures from MARS through rattlebars, I realized I had a black doo-hickey attached to my alternator that wasn't in the pictures and is inline with the attachments with the alternator. 
I'm unsure what said doo-hickey does but it was wired in so I obviously left it.  mark, do you have said doo-hickey?  Anyone...what is the function of the black doo-hickey on the back of the alternator that makes it even more of a M.F. to get out and back in? 
My dad figured it was either a capacitor or a filter of some sort.  I dunno...


p.s.  The notifications for replies are NOT coming through to my email...just an FYI oh wise moderators...

[cutter]

I believe that doo-hicky is a filter to keep that buzz sound out of your radio speakers 

[Rocketman]

That's exactly what it is.  It's a capacitor.
Only shows up on the Interstate.  The instructions for modding the old Goldwing alternator says to take that off, but really the instructions should specify that the Interstate should leave it on.
And yes, it makes it that much more fun to remove and replace.