Valk, No spark all 3 cylinders rights side

[valkerf6c]

My Valk  was running fine on the way home from work then a drop in power and the bike started to run on three cylinders checked it with a timing light left side 3 cylinders firing ok right side nothing. Any help or ideas...........

[Patrick]

Hmmm, strange problem. Doesn't make much sense since odd and even cylinders each share a coil.

[pancho]

What Patrick said,,,,,,,,,,,,,,   the only explanation is a snapped timing belt...........  check it out

[Ricky-D]

There will be motor damage, with running, while a cam belt is broken - if the motor will run at all!

Sounds more like a fuel problem to me.

I doubt the premise that all three right side plugs are not firing.

***

[Patrick]

I too doubt there is an ignition issue, just didn't want to say it.
A broken timing belt wouldn't have anything to do with a lack of spark, it certainly have a very bad effect of the operation and internal condition of the engine.  I would think the problem is fuel related, but, strange things can happen.
I would suggest check of spark again and confirm its there. Then a compression test. Thats fast and easy. Then work on the fuel system.
It'll be interesting to see what happens.

[pancho]

I agree that a broken timing belt has nothing to do with missing spark,, just knew that could not be missing spark and was going on the assumption that the bank was not running for some other reason. It may be a fuel issue as RickyD said.

[pancho]

Hey valkerf6c,,,  the more I think about it, I think some confirmation is needed on your problem. If your bike will still start, run it and confirm that all three right side header pipes stay cold, just to get a handle on things.

[Patrick]

I agree that a broken timing belt has nothing to do with missing spark,, just knew that could not be missing spark and was going on the assumption that the bank was not running for some other reason. It may be a fuel issue as RickyD said.

Oh, yep, I know.

[Rio Wil]

Hey valkerf6c,,,  the more I think about it, I think some confirmation is needed on your problem. If your bike will still start, run it and confirm that all three right side header pipes stay cold, just to get a handle on things.

Or is it only two pipes are cold.....

[Thunderbolt]

Seems like I have heard this one before.  Turned out the tank was low and fuel would only run to the low or left side.  Is the tank full of fuel?

[BnB Tom]

Seem like I have heard this one before.  Turned out the tank was low and fuel would only run to the low or left side.  Is the tank full of fuel?

  Your memory is correct...  AND it was on the kickstand - therefore right bank starved.

[Thunderbolt]

Only thing that gets me is he said that he checked them with a timing light.  And he probably knows his way around one of them or he wouldn't have used it to check for spark.
I hope we get the follow up post on this one.

[Patrick]

Only thing that gets me is he said that he checked them with a timing light.  And he probably knows his way around one of them or he wouldn't have used it to check for spark.
I hope we get the follow up post on this one.

Yep, he really didn't say much. A little extra 'splaining is needed. In a waste-spark system if one sparkler works, so should the other. This should be interesting.

[Rio Wil]

He said it started on the way back home, then mentions the 3 plugs not firing. He could not have the right plugs were not firing til he got it home and checked.
I think you guys have.....he is out of gas!!!!  Don't understand the firing issue tho...

[valkerf6c]

My local Honda dealer told me the problem would be the pulse pickups  so I ordered a new one, the timing belt is ok,,,,,,,

but thinking back to when I tested it with the timing light I first connected the light to no 5 cylinder Right side, it fired ok then stopped firing, I then connected the light to No 1 then No 3 cylinders  and again to No 5 it did not fire on any of the cylinders, I did the same to No's 2 4 6 cylinders left side and they all fire ok.

 I'm just wondering if i didn't connect it to the No 5 cylinder correctly the second time around and it could be a coild problem. Which of the coils  feeds both sides of the engine :ticked ???.

Thanks guys for all you help and suggestions.

[Patrick]

There are 3 coils. #1 is for 1 and 2. #2 is for 3 and 4. #3 is for 5 and 6. Its whats called a waste spark system which fires 2 plugs at the same time. So, when #1 cylinder fires near TDC on power stroke the #2 cylinder is firing on the exhaust stroke. Then it just reverses. #2 is firing on compression to power stroke while #1 is firing on exhaust stroke.
If I'm not mistaken I don't think the problem is the set of pulse generators. I believe that both generators are needed to tell the ICM where everything is and if one fails then no spark can be generated.
I would suggest removing the sparklers. Make sure they are grounded, attach the wires, hit the starter button and watch for the spark.

[pancho]

What Patrick said...  I don't think the pulse generator will fix your problem.

I would first VERIFY what the problem is.. I would start the motor and find which cylinders are dead, if any, by seeing which headers stayed cool. You have to have some known facts,, the way you explained the spark missing on on side cannot be as each coil fires one cylinder on either side as Patrick stated. Got to start with some facts valkerf6c.

[valkerf6c]

On the advise of my local dealer I ordered  the ignition  pulse pick ups and paid for them, I  also removed the one's on the bike and tested them for any breaks in the wiring but they  were ok.

The other problem I found with this bike was the wiring harness just under the tank(R/H side) looked like some one had removed an alarm that was wired into the harness, the wires that had been cut were just twisted together and taped up some wire were not even taped, so I re-soldered them together and heat srinked them but this was after I removed the pulse pick ups. So the question is,, could one of these wires make the bike fire just on one side. I remember  re-soldering a black white wire / yellow red / red black, and a couple more.

[Patrick]

Pulse generator failure is rare. There is a resistance number for them in the Honda Bible. But I would probably just test for continuity myself. I'm not sure about the wires you found problems with without looking, but, if the coils have power and are working at all, I would think right now that they are OK.
Have you really checked the simple stuff ? Do you have enough fuel as well as proper fuel flow ? Just open the high side carburetor drain screws and see what happens.

[pancho]

"So the question is,, could one of these wires make the bike fire just on one side"   

valkerf6c, the short answer to that question is no,, further, there is virtually nothing that could make that happen unless the three plug wires on the right were removed from the coils...  Although you tested with a timing light, I think something went wrong with your test and you are now working under a false assumption. I believe that you are going to have to put the pulse generators back in and start the diagnosis over.

[Robert]

How about the ignition wires are pinched somewhere and arcing to ground? I would try to put any wires in there and see if that changes things.

[valkerf6c]

Pulse generator failure is rare. There is a resistance number for them in the Honda Bible. But I would probably just test for continuity myself. I'm not sure about the wires you found problems with without looking, but, if the coils have power and are working at all, I would think right now that they are OK.
Have you really checked the simple stuff ? Do you have enough fuel as well as proper fuel flow ? Just open the high side carburetor drain screws and see what happens.

 The fuel tank was over half full, surely even if the bike was out of fuel I would still get a spark at the HT leads, which I have. I  removed the Pulse generator and did a continuity test it shows no break in the wires.

I've paid for and ordered a new Pulse gen from my local dealer, once I've fitted it to the bike I can start checking other things if I still get the same problem (which going off what all you guys are saying this could have been a waste of money) I will have to start looking else where, I'll keep you all in the loop, all your suggestions are very helpful so keep them coming pleases. John. UK

[valkerf6c]

Pulse generator failure is rare. There is a resistance number for them in the Honda Bible. But I would probably just test for continuity myself. I'm not sure about the wires you found problems with without looking, but, if the coils have power and are working at all, I would think right now that they are OK.
Have you really checked the simple stuff ? Do you have enough fuel as well as proper fuel flow ? Just open the high side carburetor drain screws and see what happens.

 The fuel tank was over half full, surely even if the bike was out of fuel I would still get a spark at the HT leads, which I have. I  removed the Pulse generator and did a continuity test it shows no break in the wires.

I've paid for and ordered a new Pulse gen from my local dealer, once I've fitted it to the bike I can start checking other things if I still get the same problem (which going off what all you guys are saying this could have been a waste of money) I will have to start looking else where, I'll keep you all in the loop, all your suggestions are very helpful so keep them coming pleases. John. UK

According to the wiring diagram the black/white wire that feeds all 3 coils that in turn feeds cylinders 1,3,5 R/hand side was badly connected. I am hoping that now I have soldered it together !,3and 5 will fire.

[pancho]

I think you are still missing the point that the same coils that fire 1,3 and five, also fire 2,4 and six,,,, there are only three coils, each one fires a cylinder on  either side.

 If your had fire to #2, you also had fire to #1,, same coil with two spark plug wires, every time it fires both plugs light,,,  waste spark setup as Patrick explained.... same for 3 and 4.... same for 5 and 6.

[valkerf6c]

I think you are still missing the point that the same coils that fire 1,3 and five, also fire 2,4 and six,,,, there are only three coils, each one fires a cylinder on  either side.

 If your had fire to #2, you also had fire to #1,, same coil with two spark plug wires, every time it fires both plugs light,,,  waste spark setup as Patrick explained.... same for 3 and 4.... same for 5 and 6.

Hmmm. Yes I see your point now........ So what else could it be.........

[Michvalk]

I think you are still missing the point that the same coils that fire 1,3 and five, also fire 2,4 and six,,,, there are only three coils, each one fires a cylinder on  either side.

 If your had fire to #2, you also had fire to #1,, same coil with two spark plug wires, every time it fires both plugs light,,,  waste spark setup as Patrick explained.... same for 3 and 4.... same for 5 and 6.

Hmmm. Yes I see your point now........ So what else could it be.........

Fuel supply issue. Open the drains to the fuel bowls on the bad side and see if fuel drains out. As many have pointed out, hard to imagine the bike firing on the one side, and not the other. Could also pull a plug on the bad side and see if it is fouled with fuel. That would tell you a lot

[Patrick]

' what else could it be '
end quote

Its probably like stated in other posts [ like maybe reply #18 or others]. These monsters are pretty bullet-proof and most problems are fuel related in one form or another. Many of us have been around these bikes for a long time.

[Rio Wil]

Hmmmm.....the initial problem encountered when coming home, perhaps it was due to one of the twisted together wires not making good contact???? But you indicated there were other wires in the coil area that were also twisted together and some even bare.  The ground wire for each of the coils is the Bl/W and should have no other colors attached to it.  The individual pulses to the coils from the ECM is on Y/W, Y/Bu, Y/R........is it possible you might have mixed up one of these wires and/or soldered, say, the Y/W and Y/R together. Then the ECM would try to fire two coils at once and perhaps not have enough voltage to make that happen reliably...End result would be one coil (2 plugs) would fire as normal and 4 plugs might fire weakly, sporadically or not at all.

You asked what else could it be......here is a theory....

[Patrick]

Hmmmm.....the initial problem encountered when coming home, perhaps it was due to one of the twisted together wires not making good contact???? But you indicated there were other wires in the coil area that were also twisted together and some even bare.  The ground wire for each of the coils is the Bl/W and should have no other colors attached to it.  The individual pulses to the coils from the ECM is on Y/W, Y/Bu, Y/R........is it possible you might have mixed up one of these wires and/or soldered, say, the Y/W and Y/R together. Then the ECM would try to fire two coils at once and perhaps not have enough voltage to make that happen reliably...End result would be one coil (2 plugs) would fire as normal and 4 plugs might fire weakly, sporadically or not at all.

You asked what else could it be......here is a theory....

I certainly agree. Loose or bare wires isn't a good thing and should/needs to be taken care of. When you buy a used bike you sure don't know sometimes what you're getting.
This is interesting. Can't wait to see what the problem is.

[Valkpilot]

I think you are still missing the point that the same coils that fire 1,3 and five, also fire 2,4 and six,,,, there are only three coils, each one fires a cylinder on  either side.

 If your had fire to #2, you also had fire to #1,, same coil with two spark plug wires, every time it fires both plugs light,,,  waste spark setup as Patrick explained.... same for 3 and 4.... same for 5 and 6.

Hmmm. Yes I see your point now........ So what else could it be.........

Fuel supply issue. Open the drains to the fuel bowls on the bad side and see if fuel drains out. As many have pointed out, hard to imagine the bike firing on the one side, and not the other. Could also pull a plug on the bad side and see if it is fouled with fuel. That would tell you a lot

For troubleshooting purposes, explore that it was a fuel flow issue and pull the plugs on the side that is not firing to see if they are fouled.

I have personal experience with a failing petcock starving some cylinders and flooding others until three were so fouled they wouldn't fire.

http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,27755.msg252626.html#msg252626

[valkerf6c]

Hmmmm.....the initial problem encountered when coming home, perhaps it was due to one of the twisted together wires not making good contact???? But you indicated there were other wires in the coil area that were also twisted together and some even bare.  The ground wire for each of the coils is the Bl/W and should have no other colors attached to it.  The individual pulses to the coils from the ECM is on Y/W, Y/Bu, Y/R........is it possible you might have mixed up one of these wires and/or soldered, say, the Y/W and Y/R together. Then the ECM would try to fire two coils at once and perhaps not have enough voltage to make that happen reliably...End result would be one coil (2 plugs) would fire as normal and 4 plugs might fire weakly, sporadically or not at all.

You asked what else could it be......here is a theory....



I found the badly connected wires the day after I'd tested the right side cylinders for a spark, I took great care and made sure that the wires  were soldered together correctly. I ordered a new pulse generator but it won't be with me for another 3 weeks.

Question....the Valk runs  twin spark coils.. So how can one side of the coil fire and not the other. coil 1 fires 1/2 cylinders, 2, fires 3/4 cylds 3, fires 6/5 cylds some how can my bike not fire on 1,3,5 cylds when the coils are shared???????????. If the coils  can't operate this way I may be looking in the wrong place....

[tank_post142]

that's correct. now pull the plugs on the rt side and check them out. the right sits high and the wells around the plugs can hold water, creating corrosion. no ground no spark. if the plugs are fouled no ground no spark. reinstall your pickups as they are good. cancel your order as they are not needed.clean everything check your coil wires with a meter( they should be solid core so no problem checking them) if everything checks out and the probl3m is still there. pull the plug wires one at a time and slip a Phillips screwdriver in there and hold it just off the engine block. I'll put money on you having a good spark. at this point reread all the advise on fuel problems and fix the issue.

[Blackduck]

Depending on the pick up on your timing light you may need to turn the pick up around (direction arrow facing AWAY from  plug) on the plugs that are showing no flash, polarity is oposite on each side due to the lost spark design. May not be getting a good signal to the light.
I go with a fuel problem

[WamegoRob]

Any update, Valker??