Suddenly belching blue smoke and using oil

[TOOC]

My brothers Valk  with 33k mls, running perfect up to now, but suddenly today during 50ml run belched massive volumes of blue smoke from rh exhaust pipe followed within a few hundred yards from lh pipe. The sump oil level dropped dramatically. We tested the bike at steady 50mph for few more mls and the smoke level reduced to low level but on slight acceleration heavy smoke re-emerges and continues for another few miles of steady driving.  We removed the airbox cover and it had a little grey foamy oil residue in the bottom which we cleaned out.  We opened the airbox drain plug and some water and grey foam oil emptied from it and at first thought this was our problem.  We added about 1.5 litres of oil to the sump and tested the engine hoping that it was the over-full airbox trap and drain pipe. The engine smoked on idle and vast amounts on throttling to 2000rpm. It is possible that that the bike was driven while low in oil( it took 1.5-2 litres to top it up) and our worst fear is that this low oil state suddenly caused damage to piston rings or cylinders. However the oil pressure light did not come on. We removed the crankcase to airbox breather pipe and there was no bac-kpressure or fumes emerging on revving the engine. The sump oil must be finding its way to the exhaust after combustion in the cylinders or leaking via valve stem seals into the air inlet ports or exhaust ports. The engine seems to be firing on all cylinders and has no loss of power.
We would be most grateful if anyone had ideas to solve this crisis for us.
Oliver and Joe.

[Thunderbolt]

Oil in the muffler could smoke for some time.  I would think a compression check would be one of the first things I would do.  I don't remember the requirements, but seems like it was around 160 Lbs. or so.  See if the cylinders are all the same pressure.  Did he do anything to the bike before the ride that it started smoking on like change cam belts or anything that might have changed the valve timing?

[mmurffy03]

if you deside to do a compression check remember to open the throttle all the way while cranking the engine to get the high reading it will be much lower and not accurate if left closed

[TOOC]

Thank guys for reply. We will definitely get kit and do compression test. There was no work done on engine in last year except an oil change and very it was rode about 600mls since that oil change last autumn. It has been not ridden from October until June but the engine was started every other month or so for a few minutes.
Thanks again.
Oliver

[Valker]

I suspect the clutch plate rivets sheared off and plugged the screen. Does the clutch not release fully now?

[Pete]

Sounds like oil is being transferred from the crankcase to the exhaust or to the intake.

Check the plugs for oil and carbon, if clean then crankcase to exhaust, else crankcase to intake.

Than much oil that quickly, would suspect hole in piston(s) or passage for oil to the exhaust.

Strange that it would be both sides???

[3W-lonerider]

i tend to agree with valker.. if that screen is plugged it will do exactly what your symptoms are.

[TOOC]

The knowledge and analysis from you guys is amazing and you generosity to help is much appreciated. Valker has suggested something that I need to understand and he will be interested to know that the clutch on this bike has been not opening properly for over a year and I posted my solution on this site back then which was to extend the stroke of the master cylinder by extending the clutch lever movement and replacing the pin that pushes the piston with a longer one. It was a partial solution but the in fact the clutch is giving serious trouble again disengaging coinciding with the smoke burning problem yesterday. Valker, I'm not sure what the screen is; is it the oil intake to the oil pump in the sump(crankcase)? I rode the bike just now and for the first 3 mls no smoke but as it heated up and I rode it faster (50mph) giving it rapid twists of the throttle it smoked from the rh pipe with some following from the lh pipe. I removed the crankcase to air box breather pipe and rode the bike for a mile and there is no oil being spewed from the breather pipe. There is no significant back-pressure in the crankcase and I will test it further with this breather pipe disconnected to check if the oil is being drawn through it to the airbox.
The disengaging clutch is most annoying and it would be great if it was the rivets causing both the oil problem and the sticky clutch. e in the cylinders or left the engine without an oil flow. I just hope that the rivets haven't caused any damage. Thanks again and I'll report back any progress of testing.

[Valker]

The rivets blocking the screen may eventually cause lots of problems, but running the clutch with the sheared rivets is probably worse. When the engine's off, the rivets will move from the screen. When it is restarted, they will move back to locking. Replacing the clutch plate and removing the broken rivets is the only fix.
The last guy I knew who had his fixed at the dealer, was charged $400 for the replacement. Obviously much cheaper to do it yourself if one has the knowledge, skills, and tools.

[TOOC]

Hi Valker. Thanks for your reply and help. I'm definitely going to remove the clutch which I can do myself and I've seen good articles here detailing how to do this. Can you tell me what is the "screen". It may be a USA term that we don't use in Ireland. How does it being blocked cause the oil to get into the cylinder (or exhaust outlet.) Will I see broken rivets in the engine oil? Will some be lodged in the oil filter ( is this the screen). I just hope there is no harm done to the cylinder walls.
Thanks again and I will update thread with progress.
Oliver

[hubcapsc]

Oil pump screen?



-Mike

[3W-lonerider]

Hi Valker. Thanks for your reply and help. I'm definitely going to remove the clutch which I can do myself and I've seen good articles here detailing how to do this. Can you tell me what is the "screen". It may be a USA term that we don't use in Ireland. How does it being blocked cause the oil to get into the cylinder (or exhaust outlet.) Will I see broken rivets in the engine oil? Will some be lodged in the oil filter ( is this the screen). I just hope there is no harm done to the cylinder walls.
Thanks again and I will update thread with progress.
Oliver

the screen we are refering to  is a screen in the clutch area below the actual clutch assembly. it catches the rivits before they have a chance getting into the engine.. when you remove the rear clutch cover you'll see the screen on the lower right hand side.
as far as how the oil gets into the cyl..don't know. but with that screen plugged the oil gets to the clutch but can't get back out. i cannot find that screen in the parts phish. but it will look like a lolipop sticking into the lower block.

[Dorkman]

To be burning that much oil, the oil needs to get past the rings or the valve guides, or a blown piston.  Compression test should yield a clue.

[Valker]

To be burning that much oil, the oil needs to get past the rings or the valve guides, or a blown piston.  Compression test should yield a clue.

Usually, but not in the case of the rivets and screen apparently. Seen it too often.

[TOOC]

Thank you Valker for the diagram of the oil pump assembly. I assume it is from a detailed workshop manual. Is this manual available to download? I hope to pull the clutch out this week and order the parts when I see the damage. I might get a Goldwing mechanic to re-assemble the plates and rivets but will research the task in the meantime to see if I can do it and what tools are needed.
I have a theory about how the oil is getting into the air intake and on to the cylinders. ; I recall the crankcase breather pipe is towards the gearbox/clutch end and if the oil were to build up in the gearbox area due to a blocked screen it would be forced up the breather pipe under the increasing pressure from the blockage. There was oil in lying in the airbox and it must have entered here from the breather.
Thanks again,
Oliver

[Bone]

Top of the page click on Shoptalk or here http://www.valkyrieriders.com/shoptalk/.

Someone will post the link for a service manual.

http://www.valkyrieriders.com/shoptalk/fiche.htm

http://www.valkyrieriders.com/

[NC_Rob]

Service manual

http://www.valkyrienorway.com/download.html

[Valker]

It was hubcapsc who posted the picture. Shoptalk is a fantastic resource. Probably more Valkyrie knowledge on this site than Honda has

[R J]

I have a quick question for ya.

You said you changed the oil last fall.

How much oil was put in then?

Do you check the oil level with the bike on the sidestand or straight up and down?

This happened to a good buddy of mine, RIP Frank, and he had filled the crankcase with the bike on the sidestand.

We got the oil level where it should be and all smoke disappeared.

Just a thought.

[john]

" I have a quick question for ya. "               ???
             "You said you changed the oil last fall. "         
                   " How much oil was put in then? " 
 
    that's  what I was  wonder'in ...       

[Patrick]

I agree with Valker and RJ. These monsters are pretty bullet-proof, not much happens to them. I'd sure start by making sure the oil level is correct and not over-filled, straight up and stick NOT screwed in. If thats not it and the clutch has been 'jerky' then I'd sure recommend looking at the screen too. A compression test is OK and easy to do, but, I would doubt thats the issue. Even a long finger stuck in the hole will give some indication of the compression. Some of these engines get loose valve guides over the years, but, that [or bad guide seals] will not cause that kind/amount of smoking.

[elpaso jo]

Gentlemen,
My brother is actually the guy that is making enquiries about my bike, he is a lot more tec than I am.
He will try and answer your questions when he gets back.
I really appreciate all your help. Sure hope i get it fixed. Its like a parent with a child in hospital, you cant bare to look at her sick and smokey!!
Thanks again your Brill!

[TOOC]

Thanks all for continued comments and advice and to hubcapsc for diagram. We are certain that the oil was at correct level on stick with bike level and stick unscrewed. I am opening the clutch on Thursday and will post up what I find out inside. The clutch had been disengaging (opening) sufficiently to get neutral but my brother noticed recently that the clutch was shuddering or uneven take up of drive on engaging (closing) which rectified itself. I think this was a new rivet breaking off and coming loose or perhaps an old rived working its way back between the plates.
I am hoping that the steel disks are undamaged and just new friction disks will be sufficient to repair the clutch. How can I tell if the steel disks are damaged. Could they be warped or scored.
Thanks,
Oliver

[HayHauler]

Sorry about the white space at the bottom.  I was in a hurry to leave work.



Hay  
Jimmyt

[TOOC]

We managed to remove the clutch pack but have not split the plates yet. We found two rivet heads in the case. We left the cage on the bike and think it is undamaged. Sure enough the oil screen was blocked with worn off friction disk material.
We will order parts soon and have found the site below which has a nice referenced diagram to the various parts but have not decided who to order them from yet. Should we buy OEM parts?

http://www.motosport.com/cruiser/oem-parts/HONDA/1997/VALKYRIE-_-GL1500C/CLUTCH

Can you confirm that the damper plate refer to by subscribers  to this thread is in fact item 6 on the diagram and this is the plate with the rivets. Am I correct in assuming that this  plate cannot be repaired and a new one is required.
Item 4 is described as a friction plate and am I correct in assuming that it is not the same part as the other 9 friction plates listed as item 3 (it has a different part number on diagram)
Thanks again,
Oliver

[Thunderbolt]

Luckily I have not had clutch problems, so can not help with your questions.  Hopefully someone will.  Thanks for posting your results as it gives us information for the next question.

[3W-lonerider]

that dampner plate cannot be repaired to my knowledge. as far as the one friction disk that has a different part number. that is correct. it also needs to go in a specific spot and turned a specific direction.  assemble the clutch according to the shop manual and you will not have any problems.
BTW. when you remove the spring from the clutch there is a round steel ring under it.. make sure it gets re-installed. if not your clutch will slip like crazy and squeel like you won't believe. i made that mistake and had to remove the clutch again to find out what i missed.
dampner plate is number 6 in the diagram and #4 in the diagram is gonna be listed as a B plate on the package. all the rest of the friction disks are gonna be an A plate on the package.

[Hook#3287]

Can you confirm that the damper plate refer to by subscribers  to this thread is in fact item 6 on the diagram and this is the plate with the rivets. Am I correct in assuming that this  plate cannot be repaired and a new one is required.
Item 4 is described as a friction plate and am I correct in assuming that it is not the same part as the other 9 friction plates listed as item 3 (it has a different part number on diagram)
Thanks again,

Correct on all counts.

Hopefully, when you take the basket apart, your clutch disks and plates are okay.  Then you'll just need a damper plate.

[salty1]

Great thread!    I'm anxious to see when you button it all up if that corrects the problem(s). Also if you did a compression check. Good luck!

[TOOC]

Hi All,
Just an update: we've dismantled the clutch pack to find 5-7 rivets sheared on the damper plate and a few the pads on two adjoining friction disks scratched to the metal. One joining strap fell out of the assembly when opened. The friction disks were 4mm in thickness which is greater than the service limit but we've ordered a new set of friction disks and a damper plate from Honda in Dublin. The plates are unscratched and show no warp.  I have taken photos of the disks and plates that I will upload when I get time.
I mentioned in this thread that this clutch was not fully dis-engaging/opening and I temporarily solved it by increasing the stroke of the slave cylinder having bled it to the limit initially. I was convinced it was air in the clutch fluid but now realise that the occasional shuddering on closing the clutch ( engaging) was evidence of clutch damage that we now know was caused by rivets and damper plate straps pinched between the disk and plates. There is an article on http://www.wingovations.com/#/clutch-plate-b-problems/4539741861

suggesting the replacement of the silly damper plate with a single ordinary plate.

The big test is to verify that the smoking pipe is remedied. I figure that the oil was building up in the clutch box section due to the clearly blocked oil screen and the oil finds its way back to the gearbox/engine section at a level that is close to the crankcase breather pipe. I commend you guys for having this information- I would never have discovered this.
We will report back on the test ride.
Oliver

[salty1]

To be burning that much oil, the oil needs to get past the rings or the valve guides, or a blown piston.  Compression test should yield a clue.

Usually, but not in the case of the rivets and screen apparently. Seen it too often.

Great call Valker! 

[TOOC]

Thanks to all who solved this problem for us. We have replaced all friction disks and damper plate and have the bike back on the road. It was easy to align the plate notches into the basked and hold them in place using two long bolts and large washers as described in one of the entries in this thread. We used a length of .25in walled plastic pipe to make the tool to compress the clutch diaphragm. We could not locate steel tubing of the correct inside diameter for the tool. The force to compress the diaphragm spring is not a great as it looks and the plastic tube had adequate strength.
We only had time to ride the bike for a mile and once the new friction plates bedded in, changing gear and selecting neutral was very good. We need a 3-7 mile hard ride to verify that the belching smoke is resolved but am very sure that it has. The screen returning oil from the clutch case to the main engine section was very blocked up with scrapings from the friction disks adjacent to the damper plate and this blockage surely caused the oil to build up in the clutch section and be drawn to the airbox breather pipe which connects to that end of the crankcase. We could have cut cost by replacing only the two damaged friction disks and the problematic damper plate but at least now we have essentially a new clutch. I mentioned in an earlier update where a guy suggested replacing the damper plate with a regular plate in an '80's 4 cylinder Goldwing; this could be a permanent solution to  any further clutch problems. I have not quite understood the purpose of the damper plate and what the feel and risk would be of replacing it with a fixed regular plate.
This bike developed clutch sticking last year causing the bike to creep in 1st gear with the clutch pulled and making it almost impossible to select neutral. After exhaustive bleeding to no affect, I partially fixed the problem by modifying the clutch lever to give it more stroke in order to open the clutch plates more. It was not perfect and occasionally began sticking again. The next step was to replace the master and slave cylinders which luckily we did not go to the expense of doing. When more rivets sheared and the clutch began sticking badly again this time followed immediately by the belching smoke erupted caused by a fresh and larger amount of friction plate material clogging the screen. My conclusion is that if a good clutch fluid bleeding does not cure a sticking clutch then the damper plate is a likely cause. The belching oil may not follow until the screen is completely blocked. But I bet that an indication of the screen being blocking up is the accumulation of oil in the clutch case compartment and a reduction in the level of oil in the engine. It may be possible to diagnose this by checking the dipstick immediately on stopping the engine before the oil had time to flow back into the engine area.
We will give a final report on any black smoke belching soon but we are very confident that all is fixed and will be so grateful to all for the diagnosis.

[Daniel Meyer]

Great to hear ya got it going!

I mentioned in an earlier update where a guy suggested replacing the damper plate with a regular plate in an '80's 4 cylinder Goldwing; this could be a permanent solution to  any further clutch problems.

Not really necessary. This was a problem on the early Valk plates and was fixed. You should have no more issues with the dampener plate.