Another fork project

[Dozer]

Afternoon gents.

After doing some research on the Tech Board I find a great deal of info about resealing forks. However I still have a few questions. This is a 2000 Tourer. Only the right fork is leaking. I tried the film trick but it was short lived. The front end just doesnt "feel" right anymore....kinda like a worn out shock and its not comfortable to ride anymore. Its hard to say how much oil I lost as its been over two months of puddling in the wheel rim and on the ground. I wipe it up with iso alcohol as soon as I see it so hopefully the tire wont be damaged.
So now the bike on the jack and I am ready top start doing something. I just need a direction.

I am not sure if I should just replace the seals in the right leg or do both. I dont have a tool for the right leg. I am kinda waffling between slipping both legs out and taking them to a Honda shop to let them do it OR, do it myself. I havent checked with a shop yet to see what they want for the job.

I am certain I can do it myself if I had the tools. I guess I can make a seal driver but the castellated nut in the right fork will be an issue.

Anyone have some advice about which avenue to pursue? I recently retired so I have more time than money. Y'all helped me rebuild and sync my carbs and do Redeyes shiny smog mod and those came out great. Hopefully this will be the same.

Thanks
Dozer

[Bighead]

Well dozer if it were me I would replace bothe sides. Probably only feels weak because of the leak but while you got them torn down you Gould also replace the fork springs. As far as tools can't help there.

[Hook#3287]

Hey Dozer;

I've done this several times and it's relatively easy to do.  I have the socket/tool I'd be willing to ship to you if someone closer doesn't step up.

I would do both, as well as the glide and slider bushings and new fluid.

If you don't already have a service manual go here and follow the instructions.

http://www.valkyrienorway.com/1520manual/valkyriegl1500.zip

Bill

[Ricky-D]

Replacing shock absorber seals is not a maintenance item.

Only repair what is broken.

I can't fathom the idea of paying a shop to redo a good shock absorber

and the same goes for doing it yourself.

Go to school on the right side and you'll be ready for the left side

if it ever becomes necessary.

 

***

[Dozer]

Hello Ricky D

That was my initial thought...just do the right leg. Its the easier of the two. My thoughts also say if the right side failed can the left be far behind and what about changing the old oil in it. Surely it's not like it was when it was new, Although the oil that came out of the left side looked pretty clean. I dont know.

This bike doesnt get ridden much. It only has 38K miles on it.  My 05 Road Star has over 60K. Maybe if I rode the Valk more??

Thanks Rick

[Bighead]

If you change a wheel bearing on you car are you just going to do one side? Or on your bike if the left bearing is bad but right is not you just gonna leave it be?or if one rotor is bad but not the other? You got a fouled plug you just gonna change that one? Same age and same miles so why not while you got it down? Only makes sense to me.

[Dozer]

Thanks BH...I dont want to put a lot of money into this bike. Its my sons bike but its lived in my garage for over a year and it seems that I am the only one who rides it....and thats not very often. I just want to make it ride able again for the least amount I can afford, so springs are out of the question unless one is broken. I dont think I have ever seen a broken spring in any bike...just some weak ones

[Bill anderson]

Watch this video.There are 4 parts.Replacing the seals is pretty easy.

VTX 1800 Fork Seals Part 1.wmv	powered by Aeva

[Dozer]

BH...I see your point. In fact I see both sides and thats where my indecision comes from. Mostly it comes down to $$. I knda wish he'd just sell the bike but I guess having one is better than wanting one....sometimes!  

[Dozer]

Thanks Bill...I have watched that vid a dozen times to get an idea of whats involved. But that guy has the tools and I dont.

[Dozer]

Thanks Hook....your offer is generous and I will certainly consider it. Yes, I have a copy of the manual as well as a factory Honda manual. I also studied the pics and text from the guy in Norway who did his own fork work too. I'll try to make a decision tomorrow as to either do one or both...I need to get some parts on order and make sure my camera battery is charger! Then I guess all I need to do is just do it! I am guessing if I run into a snag you can help?

[Hook#3287]

You'll be fine. This board can help you with just about anything.

If cost is the main concern, there's no reason you couldn't just swap the seal and change the fork oil.

If I remember correctly, someone has done a post on how to swap out the seal without removing the tube from the bike.

[Dozer]

Thanks Hook....I found a list of parts that "should" be replaced but if I have to take it all apart maybe should do those too? Last price list I saw was $120. I think I can swing that. I saw the Norway link where the guy did his. Didnt seem all that bad.

[Bighead]

Hey Dozer if the bike belongs to your son charge him $75 an hour labor and a 30% up charge on the parts

[hubcapsc]

The icky spoo that you pour out of one leg will be nothing like the
sparkling new fluid you put back in. The same icky spoo is in
the other fork leg...

The Honda manual is also at the Norway site, if you don't have one...

http://valkyrienorway.com/download.html

-Mike

[Dozer]

 icky spoo?

I kinda figured that. I am gonna have a talk with my son and lay out his options. Maybe he'll go the whole 9 yards and progressives too. Who knows.....I wish I knew if he was gonna keep this thing or sell it. If hes gonna keep it it would behoove him to do it all.

Yes sir...I have the book.
Thanks

[Len]

Mechanics Law (think Newtons Law): as soon as you are comfortable, and think you are  good to go the other side will leak; even if it doesn't leak you will have new oil and old/contaminant filled oil in one side.  Have seen lots of riders go for one side only to be back in the shop to reseal/repair the other.  Did both tubes on my ZX12R @ 39,000 miles...no regrets.

Just my .02 and observations.

[Dozer]

Thanks Len....good advice and I know it to be true in other things too. Fix the AC fan and the compressor goes out...and so on....universal law too...

[Andy Cote]

You do not need to touch the spanner nut.  You will need a 17mm wrench that is thinner than most.  You can buy a nice seal driver for $38 or borrow or make one.

IMHO - only use Honda parts; always do the bushings when you do the seals; always do both sides.  Once you have the tools, it's only another $45-50 to do the other side.

[sandy]

K&L seals are quite a bit cheaper and are the same quality as OEM. Most pro mechanics don't change the dust seal as it rarely wears out. K&L sells two oil seals in one package. OEM sells a kit for each side with both seals and dusts in each package. That doubles the cost for OEM. I've rebuilt about 10 sets of forks for friends and never had an issue with dust seals.

[sandy]

Another tip. Harley's manual calls for packing the oil seal with a waterproof grease between the two lips of the seal. I began doing that several fork jobs ago. Harley's rarely lose fork seals and I've noticed an improvement since this change.

[Dozer]

Hi Andy....thanks for the advice. You mentioned a thin 17mm wrench. Would that be an open end or box..and how would I use it? It looks like the nut on the right side is a castellated nut. What am I not seeing?

As for a seal driver, I think I'll try to make the sched 40 PVC thing work first. If that doesnt work I'll invest in the tool but I hate to buy something knowing that I may only use it once.

[Hook#3287]

You'll need the thin 17m wrench to hold the lock or retaining nut on the right tube, when removing and installing the cap nut.  I use the one in the OEM tool kit.

[Dozer]

Hi Sandy...I havent actually priced the parts yet. I was looking at other folks cost when they did theirs. I glanced at the OEM parts list for the forks. Yes, I see that the seal kit sold by the OEM is for one leg only and consists of a dust seal, snap ring and a fork seal for $21.38. x's 2=$42.76+ shipping. Thats from a vendor named Cheap Cycle Parts. HLD is about the same price.

J&P Cycles sells those K&L kits for $45+ shipping. That consists of two dust seals and two fork seals. Thats about $22.50 for each leg. Where did you get your seals?

Waterproof grease sounds like a good idea...lithium grease? Years ago I installed two zerks in the neck of my Road Star and use lithium grease for my neck bearings. Once or twice a year I give them a shot of grease. Seems to work just fine. I saw those on a Harley.

[Dozer]

You'll need the thin 17m wrench to hold the lock or retaining nut on the right tube, when removing and installing the cap nut.  I use the one in the OEM tool kit.

Ahhhh, I have my head up and locked this morning...Sorry, I was thinking LEFT leg. 17MM is for the RIGHT leg....got ya..Thanks for clarifying that for me

[Gryphon Rider]

A few points:
1. As mentioned, the thin wrench required is part of the OEM tool kit.
2. If you are not removing the springs, you will not need the special socket.
3. If you are not removing the springs, you will need to thoroughly drain the old oil because you will need to put in a carefully measured quantity of new oil. I bought a plastic graduated cylinder to have the accuracy required by the service manual.
4. Whether you do just one or both forks is up to you. Doing just one will not harm the other. In my case, the second seal started leaking shortly after the first, so I did both.
5. Many people replace the steel slider bushings at the same time. The service manual explains how to determine whether they are worn enough to require replacement. Based on that, I didn't replace mine.

[Dozer]

Hello Gryphon Rider....I just got email from my son....he wants to do both legs. Its a good thing too because when I took the fender and left shield off, the slider tube was wet with oil & it started to collect at the base of the brackets. So it was a good call. I think hes gonna stay with stock springs so I see no reason to remove them unless its required

So you re saying that I can replace the left leg seals without that special socket to loosen that castle nut? That would be a big pothole out of the way. I'll check the wear items when I get this thing apart. Maybe replace them regardless

Thanks

[sandy]

Hi Sandy...I havent actually priced the parts yet. I was looking at other folks cost when they did theirs. I glanced at the OEM parts list for the forks. Yes, I see that the seal kit sold by the OEM is for one leg only and consists of a dust seal, snap ring and a fork seal for $21.38. x's 2=$42.76+ shipping. Thats from a vendor named Cheap Cycle Parts. HLD is about the same price.

J&P Cycles sells those K&L kits for $45+ shipping. That consists of two dust seals and two fork seals. Thats about $22.50 for each leg. Where did you get your seals?

Dozer: I buy them from my local service shop. The recent repair I did , I used seals from Parts Plus. The part number is 15-5081. Size is: 45 X 57 X 11 mm.

Waterproof grease sounds like a good idea...lithium grease? Years ago I installed two zerks in the neck of my Road Star and use lithium grease for my neck bearings. Once or twice a year I give them a shot of grease. Seems to work just fine. I saw those on a Harley.

[Gryphon Rider]

So you re saying that I can replace the left leg seals without that special socket to loosen that castle nut? That would be a big pothole out of the way. I'll check the wear items when I get this thing apart. Maybe replace them regardless

Thanks

Look at 6:30 in the video above. The fellow is showing why you don't need to use the tool.
I thoroughly drained the forks and used a 250mL graduated cylinder purchased at a local scientific supply store to add the right amount of new oil.
Be sure to put tape on the end of the inner tube before sliding the new seal over it. The sharp edge can damage the new seal otherwise.

[Dozer]

Hi Sandy...I havent actually priced the parts yet. I was looking at other folks cost when they did theirs. I glanced at the OEM parts list for the forks. Yes, I see that the seal kit sold by the OEM is for one leg only and consists of a dust seal, snap ring and a fork seal for $21.38. x's 2=$42.76+ shipping. Thats from a vendor named Cheap Cycle Parts. HLD is about the same price.

J&P Cycles sells those K&L kits for $45+ shipping. That consists of two dust seals and two fork seals. Thats about $22.50 for each leg. Where did you get your seals?

Dozer: I buy them from my local service shop. The recent repair I did , I used seals from Parts Plus. The part number is 15-5081. Size is: 45 X 57 X 11 mm.

Waterproof grease sounds like a good idea...lithium grease? Years ago I installed two zerks in the neck of my Road Star and use lithium grease for my neck bearings. Once or twice a year I give them a shot of grease. Seems to work just fine. I saw those on a Harley.

Thanks Sandy..I'll check them out

[Dozer]

So you re saying that I can replace the left leg seals without that special socket to loosen that castle nut? That would be a big pothole out of the way. I'll check the wear items when I get this thing apart. Maybe replace them regardless

Thanks

Look at 6:30 in the video above. The fellow is showing why you don't need to use the tool.
I thoroughly drained the forks and used a 250mL graduated cylinder purchased at a local scientific supply store to add the right amount of new oil.
Be sure to put tape on the end of the inner tube before sliding the new seal over it. The sharp edge can damage the new seal otherwise.

Oh, I see it now. I am gonna have to watch the vid again without the phone and interruptions. Thanks for pointing that out. I'll pull those puppies apart tomorrow. Thanks again. I'll see what I can find in terms of a measured beaker or cylinder...I should be able to find something or convert Ml to fluid oz's. I need to read the book again too.  It would be easier than measuring the oil from the top and sucking it out

[Gryphon Rider]

The measure from the top technique is with the springs OUT. Yes, read the service manual and other material you may have until you have a good grasp of it before starting. Pay attention also to the direction of the seal. A beaker won't give you the precision that the manual requires. Others might debate the importance of this, but I deferred to Honda on this.

[Dozer]

The measure from the top technique is with the springs OUT. Yes, read the service manual and other material you may have until you have a good grasp of it before starting. Pay attention also to the direction of the seal. A beaker won't give you the precision that the manual requires. Others might debate the importance of this, but I deferred to Honda on this.

I have the lower legs out with the springs still inside of the legs. I did it with the outer tubes still on the bike. It was surprising easy and not too messy. The dust seals and inner seals are rock hard and the slider bushings are pretty well worn. Everything else looks good by the book. Springs out to add oil.... Roger that...pg 13-32 in the Honda book. Also about "bleeding" the fork then topping off with the rest of the oil and proper location/position of replacement parts.
So two more questions:

1. Just how much oil do I put in the forks if the springs are still in the lower legs? I dont plan to remove the springs. Would I be over servicing the forks if I added the recommended amount of oil with the springs still in?

2. I have heard of people using a heavier weight fork oil for better feel and performance. What are your thoughts on that?

[Gryphon Rider]

1. Just how much oil do I put in the forks if the springs are still in the lower legs? I dont plan to remove the springs. Would I be over servicing the forks if I added the recommended amount of oil with the springs still in?

2. I have heard of people using a heavier weight fork oil for better feel and performance. What are your thoughts on that?

As long as you're pretty confident you've drained out all the old oil, just add the correct amount according to the chart.  Note that the amount is different for the Interstate vs. the Standard/Tourer, and for left fork vs. right fork.

I can't remember which brand, but I put in 15 weight fork oil.  It helped with front end diving while quickly applying the front brakes, but it made the suspension a little harsher than I like, especially in cold temperatures.  Next time I'll use 10 weight.  From what I understand, there isn't an industry-wide standard for fork oil viscosity like there is for motor oil, so for those of us who don't change fork oil all the time, we buy a brand we like at the weight we like and hope for the best.

In case you're not familiar with volume units, 1 cm³ (cc) = 1 mL, 1000 mL = 1 L, and 946.35 mL = 1 US quart.

From page 13-1 of the Valkyrie service manual:

[Dozer]

Gryphon...thanks for the input. Yes, I believe the forks are now drained. I let then stand with the axle end up over night. Today I worked them up and down and nothing came out. I cleaned the lowers thoroughly and reinspected. So, I'll get my parts on order now. I noticed that on the seals that are on the forks now do not have those dimples like the pics of the new seals. There is also a wound tension spring installed in a groove in the seals and in the dust seals as well.

 When the old fluid started running out it was a fairly clear amber. I noticed that the oil Honda recommends (Pro Honda SS8) is red. I heard of people using ATF but also read that its 7 wt and not 10. Ultimately I guess color isnt important anyway. The only time you see it is when you put it in or it runs out! I guess after 13 years they had to change something.

These forks have never been serviced. The bike was bought new and my son has been the only owner. That oil isnt cheap either but I have decided to go with what the book recommends. I'll start adding oil slowly and pump the forks as I go to bleed them. Eventually I hope to arrive at the measurement rather than the qty. I think that will work.