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Author Topic: Looks like CCW Reciprocity was killed in the senate  (Read 1958 times)
Psychotic Bovine
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New Haven, Indianner


« on: July 22, 2009, 11:34:07 AM »

The typical anti-gunner rhetoric of "20 times more likely to be killed in your house if you own a gun" was out in force again.  This "fact" was wrong 30 years ago when it was made up and it's still wrong today.
Oh well, at least this probably helps serve the walking papers to most of the libs in 2010, just like it did for the assault weapons ban.

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solo1
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New Haven, Indiana


« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2009, 12:45:28 PM »

2010.  Let's adopt a new slogan. "It's time for a change"  Oh crap, that one is already taken.
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BudMan
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"Two's in."

Tecumseh OK


« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2009, 02:25:52 PM »

I think that was attempt number three for the bill in one form or another the last few years if I remember right.
Wait till next year.  No wait, that was our Mississippi State football cheer.....
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Valker
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Wahoo!!!!

Texas Panhandle


« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2009, 04:36:22 PM »

2010.  Let's adopt a new slogan. "It's time for a change"  Oh crap, that one is already taken.
Solo, those folks who thought He said that were misunderstanding Him. He said "It's time for chains." Cry
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fnsmoak
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Charleston, SC


« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2009, 06:55:18 PM »

Personally, I'm very glad this legislation to leverage even MORE power from the States failed.  The original Constitution for these few united States gave a federal government extremely LIMITED powers to do a very few tasks; AND LISTED EACH TASK.  Dictating how each state handles personal protection at border crossings is NOT one of them.

The passing of this legislation would simply be used by SCOTUS Obamites to break chunks away from your rights rather than continue with the little chips they've been taking since Lincoln initially brought Socialism to Pennsylvania Ave.

For those of us that have increased our knowlege beyond the Public School Mentality, this failure is a good thing.  For those of you that are so easily lured by this sort of "Feel Good Legislation", please get upset enough at what you apparently DON'T UNDERSTAND to do some research and learn the original principles of the Constitution.

FLAME ON!!  & somebody give the stinkin' egret a swat for me.

fnsmoak

and Yeah; I'm all about gun control......


AND limiting ownership of personal firearms.....


TO AS MANY AS YOU CAN AFFORD.....  --- each week.


Subsequently, all the pictured arms have been either stolen, lost, or I've forgotten who "borrowed" them.

www.gunsmoak.com
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Serk
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Rowlett, TX


« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2009, 07:17:14 PM »

fnsmoak - IF I believed that this was about making a stand against the federal government usurping yet another power from the states, and that after this bill failing there would be no further power grabs by the federal government, I'd agree with you 100%, but alas I fear that's not the case...

Of course, one could argue that there already IS a federal concealed handgun permit... And it's called the 2nd Amendment, but that's a whole other ball of wax...

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FryeVRCCDS0067
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Brazil, IN


« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2009, 08:55:52 PM »

Yep, looks like we lost this one by only two votes. I'm trying to find out how our Indiana senators Bayh and Lugar voted on this but I'm not having much luck. I called both their offices about it Tuesday and got no commitment from either one so I'm pretty curious.

I agree in part with Frank concerning states rights but for the most part I think our permits should work pretty much as our drivers licenses work. Issued by the states but good in all states.  I don’t doubt that the anti-freedom people will try to impose more gun control with this as an excuse when it does finally pass though.
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Hellcat
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« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2009, 10:55:13 PM »

fnsmoak - IF I believed that this was about making a stand against the federal government usurping yet another power from the states, and that after this bill failing there would be no further power grabs by the federal government, I'd agree with you 100%, but alas I fear that's not the case...



Nonetheless, it is a victory for states' rights, and one case we don't have to wait for the Supreme Court to overturn (which they would have - the libs would have been against carrying guns, and the conservatives would have gone for states rights).

This, more than anything, is a states' rights issue, and the outcome was correct. Every argument I heard or read "for" this bill was weak compared to the states' rights argument "against".
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Jess from VA
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« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2009, 03:22:21 AM »

Actually this is a pretty good and interesting discussion.

On the one hand, most everyone with a State issued CCW would like to have universal reciprocity.  AND, universal reciprocity would act to force People's Republic States like MD, MA, CA, IL, HI, and others to recognize foreign permits, when it won't even issue them to their own residents (at least on a "shall-issue" basis). 

On the other hand, what right does the Fed have telling the States that they must honor a CCW issued in another State?  None is the answer.  And protecting State soverignty from the ever growing/grasping Fed is the greater good here.  Just because the purpose of this particular legislation was unusually beneficial to individuals (extending rights, rather than the usual restricting or taxing), doesn't make it right. 

As it is, I simply will not travel to or spend any money in People's Republic States, to the extent I possibly can.  I must work in DC for a few more years, thereafter I will never set foot in Sodom on the Potomac again.
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solo1
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New Haven, Indiana


« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2009, 04:21:43 AM »

Yep, looks like we lost this one by only two votes. I'm trying to find out how our Indiana senators Bayh and Lugar voted on this but I'm not having much luck. I called both their offices about it Tuesday and got no commitment from either one so I'm pretty curious.

I agree in part with Frank concerning states rights but for the most part I think our permits should work pretty much as our drivers licenses work. Issued by the states but good in all states.  I don’t doubt that the anti-freedom people will try to impose more gun control with this as an excuse when it does finally pass though.


As you know by now, Bayh (Democrat) voted for it and Lugar(Republican) voted against it.

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3fan4life
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Moneta, VA


« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2009, 06:13:42 AM »

The following is directly from the NRA's website:


Quote
Bipartisan Majority of the U.S. Senate Votes in Favor of National Right-to-Carry Reciprocity


Wednesday, July 22, 2009


Fairfax, Va. – Today, by a margin of 58-39, a bipartisan majority of the U.S. Senate voted in favor of an amendment offered by Senator John Thune to provide interstate recognition of right-to-carry permits. The amendment to S.1390, the National Defense Authorization Act, would acknowledge that the right to self-defense extends across state lines. Under this provision, individuals with carry permits from their home state, or who are otherwise allowed to carry a firearm in their home state, could carry in any other state that issues permits.

“Today’s strong majority vote in the U.S. Senate was an important step forward in the National Rifle Association’s decades long effort to make right-to-carry and national reciprocity the law of the land,” said NRA Executive Vice President Wayne LaPierre.

Expanding right-to-carry enhances public safety, as criminals are deterred from attempting crimes when they know or suspect that their prospective victims are armed. A Department of Justice study found that 40 percent of felons had not committed crimes because they feared the prospective victims were armed. The Thune-Vitter amendment recognized that competent, responsible, law-abiding Americans still deserve our trust and confidence when they cross state lines.

Passing interstate right-to-carry legislation would not only reduce crime by deterring criminals, but -- most important of all -- would protect the right of honest Americans to protect themselves if deterrence fails.

“While we are disappointed that the 60 vote procedural hurdle was not met, the vote shows that a bipartisan majority agrees with the NRA,” said NRA-ILA Executive Director Chris W. Cox. “We would like to thank Sen. John Thune (R-S.D.), Sen. David Vitter (R-La.) and Sen. Jim Webb (D-Va.), along with all senators who voted in favor of this amendment on both sides of the aisle. The efforts of these senators were not in vain, as the NRA will continue to work tirelessly to ensure this important legislation finds the right avenue to come before Congress once again.”

-NRA-


I understand the issue of states rights.

However, the NRA is the best advocate that gun owners have.

And it would seem that not only is the NRA for the passage of this bill but that they have also had a hand in its creation.

Generally, when it comes to what is best for me as a gun owner I trust the judgement of the NRA. 
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Jess from VA
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« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2009, 07:40:33 AM »

I understand the issue of states rights.

However, the NRA is the best advocate that gun owners have.

And it would seem that not only is the NRA for the passage of this bill but that they have also had a hand in its creation.

Generally, when it comes to what is best for me as a gun owner I trust the judgement of the NRA. 


I'm with you on this, I support my NRA on nearly everything, and this is clearly a "good cause."

But here is what I'm talking about, and it's going to get worse, not better.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2009/07/21/heritage-house-law/
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3fan4life
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Any day that you ride is a good day!

Moneta, VA


« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2009, 08:57:39 AM »

The BIGGEST lie ever told is:


You can Trust Us.... We're from the Government
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Hellcat
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Arlington, VA


« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2009, 09:08:34 AM »

The following is directly from the NRA's website:


Quote
Bipartisan Majority of the U.S. Senate Votes in Favor of National Right-to-Carry Reciprocity




-NRA-




Generally, when it comes to what is best for me as a gun owner I trust the judgement of the NRA.  

Headline should read "Bipartisan near-majority votes to grab even more Federal power"

In my opinion is that this is one case where the "generally" doesn't apply. What's best for you as a "gun owner" is not necessarily what is best for you as a citizen of a free country based on individual and states' rights.

And before you respond that "guns are what keep the country free", keep in mind that they do so by keeping the option of revolution available. We have a Constitution that is supposed to maintain our civil liberties without resorting to revolution against the government, and in my opinion that's the better option: standing up for states' rights and the Constitution is better than standing up for the degredation of states' rights and ultimately having to use the guns against the government.

In other words, I am for individual gun rights because they serve as a threat to total government takeover, but I would prefer to never have to see the threat carried out.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2009, 09:13:56 AM by theopowers » Logged
KW
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West Michigan


« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2009, 09:44:16 AM »

Just to clarify; This amendment, 1 of 216 amendments contained within the bill, would NOT have added to the power of the federal government, but ensured that indiviual States didn't restrict Constitutioanl rights. . . . No State has the authority or "right" to make or enforce ANY (i.e. CCW) law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities (READ: 2nd. Amendment) of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Let me quote from the most famous & revered dem in hisotry;

"By calling attention to a well-regulated militia for the security of the Nation, and the right of each citizen to keep and bear arms, our founding fathers recognized the essentially civilian nature of our economy. Although it is extremely unlikely that the fear of governmental tyranny, which gave rise to the 2nd amendment, will ever be a major danger to our Nation, the amendment still remains an important declaration...in which every citizen must be ready to participate in the defense of his country. For that reason I believe the 2nd Amendment will always be important. ... If we make peaceful revolution impossible, we make violent revolution inevitable." --John F. Kennedy

How far the "democratic" (LOL) party has fallen. . .
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FryeVRCCDS0067
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Brazil, IN


« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2009, 10:05:32 AM »

This was sent to me by the Patriot Post.

Alexander's Essay – 23 July 2009

Second Amendment Reciprocity?
"The sacred rights of mankind are not to be rummaged for, among old parchments, or musty records. They are written, as with a sun beam, in the whole volume of human nature, by the hand of the divinity itself; and can never be erased or obscured by mortal power." --Alexander Hamilton

As of this writing, Barack Hussein Obama's "fundamental transformation of the United States of America" has obligated taxpayers for an admitted $7 trillion in current and future debt for his so-called "economic recovery" act. Heaping insult upon near-fatal injury, Congress is now considering an additional $2 trillion in proposed tax increases for BO's CO2 folly, over $1 trillion for his nationalized healthcare experiment and untold trillions for another round of "economic recovery" programs. Furthermore, TARP Inspector General Neil Barofsky announced this week that total Federal exposure for all TARP "spending" had been leveraged to $23.7 trillion, equal to approximately one and one half times GDP.

All of this tax obligation comes amid the worst economic decline in decades, and is sure to test the limits of "Trickle-Up Poverty."

Of course, none of the aforementioned Obama initiatives, or the collection and redistribution of wealth to fund them, is authorized by our Constitution (unless of course you subscribe to the so-called "Living Constitution" as amended by judicial diktat).

Therefore, if these schemes are not authorized by our Constitution, then we have an outlaw government, and if we have an outlaw government, then by what authority does that government assess and collect taxes?

That question will be the subject of an upcoming essay, but I raise it here in order to highlight an expenditure that our Constitution does authorize Congress to enact -- defense appropriations.

The National Defense Authorization Act for 2010 (H.R. 2647) passed the House by a vote of 389 Ayes, 22 Nays (2 Republican) and 22 Present/Not Voting. It contained 69 amendments, mostly related to defense expenditures.

The Senate version of the NDAA (S.1390) with its 216 amendments is now being debated.

One of those amendments, a liberal effort to expand so-called "hate crimes" legislation, resulted in heated discourse on the Senate floor, including this scolding by John McCain (R-AZ) toward Harry Reid (D-NV): "The majority leader has made it clear that their highest priority ... is a hate crimes bill that has nothing to do whatsoever with defending this nation. While we have young Americans fighting and dying in two wars, we're going to take up the hate crimes bill because the majority leader thinks that's more important ... than legislation concerning the defense of this nation."

Indeed, McCain has this one exactly right.

However, I draw your attention to another amendment, this one added by Sen. John Thune (R-SD), authorizing interstate reciprocity of concealed-carry permit holders cross state lines with their weapons. Thune's amendment was stripped from the legislation even after mustering 58 votes for and 39 votes against.

Yes, that is a strong majority in favor, but still two votes short of the 60-vote threshold needed to block a promised filibuster by Chuck Schumer (D-NY). (In today's milquetoast Senate, just the threat of a filibuster is treated as an actual filibuster.)

Deplorably, two Republican senators voted against Thune's measure: Richard Lugar of Indiana and George Voinovich of neighboring Ohio.

For the record, I am not suggesting this measure would have passed had Lugar and Voinovich changed their votes -- the Democrats were not going to let this one through. These votes always come down to who cut the best backroom wink-and-nod deals on some other piece of legislation in return for a aye or nay on this one. But I do wonder what Lugar and Voinovich got in return...

Schumer protested, "This amendment is a bridge too far, and could endanger the safety of millions of Americans. Each state has carefully crafted its concealed-carry laws in the way that makes the most sense to protect its citizens. Clearly, large, urban areas merit a different standard than rural areas. To gut the ability of local police and sheriffs to determine who should be able to carry a concealed weapon makes no sense. It could reverse the dramatic success we've had in reducing crime in most all parts of America. Whether you are pro-gun or pro-gun control, this measure deserves to be defeated. We will do everything we can to stop this poisonous amendment from being enacted."

There was a concerted effort by the Left to paint Thune's reciprocity amendment as having nothing to do with national defense -- a tit-for-tat in response to McCain's complaint about Reid's "hate crimes" amendment.

However, I subscribe to the notion that "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." That would be directly from the Second Amendment in our Constitution's Bill of Rights.

Sidebar: For those who don't know enough about American history to comprehend that "a well regulated Militia" refers to "the People," stop reading this essay and take Civics 101 at any accredited institution. Oh, wait, they don't teach Civics 101 any longer, which not only perpetuates but, in fact, institutionalizes ignorance of our Constitution.

The Second Amendment's assurance of the right, nay, the responsibility to own and carry firearms, with the attendant proscription against government infringement of that right, is our most essential reassurance of self defense, national defense and defense of our Constitution from "enemies, domestic and abroad."

Justice Joseph Story, appointed to the Supreme Court by James Madison (our Constitution's principal author), wrote in his "Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States" (1833), "The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of the republic; since it offers a strong moral check against usurpation and arbitrary power of the rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them."

On that note, let's take a closer look at Schumer's complaint in an effort to discern what the Second Amendment really provides.

"Each state," says Schumer, "has carefully crafted its concealed-carry laws in the way that makes the most sense to protect its citizens. Clearly, large, urban areas merit a different standard than rural areas."

Schumer is asserting that the Second Amendment prohibits only federal government infringement of the right to keep and bear arms while that prohibition is not incorporated to prohibit state governments from infringing on the same right.

So, would Schumer likewise argue that states have authority to regulate First Amendment rights of religious freedom, or freedom of speech, or of the press? Of course not.

Ironically, the First Amendment notes, "Congress [emphasis added] shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." (Our Founders chose their words with great deliberation.)

Though the First Amendment is clearly a proscription on congressional legislation, not state legislation, the Second Amendment contains no such language and declares that "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

However, the Left has errantly incorporated proscriptions of the First Amendment upon the states (while completely redefining "speech" to include even the most grotesque forms of expression but restricting political speech,) while arguing that the Second Amendment is a prohibition only upon the federal government.

Sidebar: When an über-leftist attempts to make an argument for federalism, beware. Though the 10th Amendment in the Bill of Rights defines federalism -- "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." -- this does not suggest that the previous amendments apply only to the federal government.

In order to consider whether there is a constitutional basis for Thune's reciprocity amendment in the first place, we must first discern our Founders' original intent.

The Bill of Rights was adopted in 1791 after great disagreement on whether the enumeration of such rights was even required. Alexander Hamilton aptly summed up the basis for this disagreement in Federalist No. 84: "I go further, and affirm that bills of rights, in the sense and to the extent in which they are contended for, are not only unnecessary in the proposed Constitution, but would even be dangerous. ... For why declare that things shall not be done which there is no power to do?"

Indeed, read in context, the Bill of Rights is an affirmation of innate individual rights, of Natural Rights as noted by Thomas Jefferson in the Declaration of Independence: "[All men] are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." The Bill of Rights, then, is a clear delineation of constraints upon the central government in regard to infringement of those rights.

Further, it is ludicrous to argue that the enumeration of those rights was a prohibition on only the federal government since, in the words of Hamilton (and echoed in the writings of many other Founders), "Why declare that things shall not be done which there is no power to do?"

These rights were enumerated, according to those who favored inclusion, in order to explicitly recount the rights of "the people," as noted in the Bill of Rights Preamble (yes, it has one): "The Conventions of a number of the States having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added..."

In other words, our Founders argued that they enumerated both "declaratory and restrictive clauses" in order to "prevent misconstruction or abuse of [central government] powers" that would infringe on the inherent rights of the people.

More than a century after the Bill of Rights was adopted, the Supreme Court (of Jefferson's "Despotic Branch") began incorporating the provisions in the Bill of Rights as applicable to the states. This, in and of itself, implied that somehow the inalienable rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights might not already extend to all people in all jurisdictions.

The High Court construed the 14th Amendment's Section 1 as support for incorporation: "No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

It is notable that the 14th Amendment makes direct reference to the Bill of Rights' Fifth Amendment prohibition against depriving any person of "life, liberty, or property."

In the mid-20th century, the Supreme Court increasingly used the 14th Amendment's Privileges or Immunities Clause, Due Process Clause and Equal Protection Clause to make portions of the Bill of Rights binding upon the states. The consequence of this interpretation was and remains that the inalienable rights enumerated by our Founders are now awarded at the discretion of the judiciary, not endowed by our Creator.

However, given the fact that our Founders' intent with the Bill of Rights was to enumerate certain declaratory and restrictive clauses to ensure the Declaration's "unalienable rights" of all men, one must conclude by extension that those rights are inalienable by any government jurisdiction, irrespective of the 14th Amendment.

So, in regard to Sen. Thune's reciprocity amendment, I ask, "Reciprocity for what?" Are we so steeped in the errant notion that our rights are a gift from government that we no longer subscribe to the plain language of our Constitution based on the inalienable rights of man? Has the temperature been turned up so slowly over the last eight decades, so incrementally, that when we finally feel the heat, it will be too late for us to jump, like frogs, out of the pot?

With our Constitution now in exile, I can understand why Sen. Thune would forward an amendment to provide interstate reciprocity for law-abiding concealed weapon permit holders.

However, the Second Amendment still enumerates my right to carry.

When senators such as Chuck Schumer and Dick Durbin declare, "We're able to breathe a sigh of relief," in regard to the defeat of Thune's amendment, let me suggest that you obtain a copy of our Constitution, and be prepared to educate anyone charged with enforcing the law, just what it is that they have sworn to "Support and Defend."

Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus et Fidelis!

Mark Alexander
Publisher, PatriotPost.US

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"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice.
And... moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.''
-- Barry Goldwater, Acceptance Speech at the Republican Convention; 1964
Hellcat
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Arlington, VA


« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2009, 10:30:12 AM »

Just to clarify; This amendment, 1 of 216 amendments contained within the bill, would NOT have added to the power of the federal government, but ensured that indiviual States didn't restrict Constitutioanl rights. . . . No State has the authority or "right" to make or enforce ANY (i.e. CCW) law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities (READ: 2nd. Amendment) of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

1. We will disagree on this I'm sure, but the second amendment says nothing about being allowed to carry a weapon hidden in your pocket among your fellow citizens. It does say you have a right to own it and keep it available to protect against foreign invasion and against the tyranny of your own government.

I agree that the dems have (in general) fallen to the wrong side of the second amendment, but the JFK quote above says nothing about concealed carry, nor should it. It is about the right to keep a weapon against the potential tyranny of your own government, not to carry it it around hidden on a day to day basis when revolution is not underway.

Every quote by founding-fathers-types in the patriotpost article above is like that too - they are not talking about concealed carry, they are talking about keeping arms against the threat of government tyranny, as in:

"Justice Joseph Story, appointed to the Supreme Court by James Madison (our Constitution's principal author), wrote in his "Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States" (1833), "The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of the republic; since it offers a strong moral check against usurpation and arbitrary power of the rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them."

2. Even if you argue that concealed carry is covered by the second amendment, then CCW laws are a state violation of your individual rights (they ask for information and charge you a fee), and a legislated national reciprocity is a federal violation of states' rights.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2009, 12:36:36 PM by theopowers » Logged
Ferris Leets
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Catskill Mountains, N.Y.


« Reply #17 on: July 23, 2009, 10:46:09 AM »

Actually this is a pretty good and interesting discussion.

On the one hand, most everyone with a State issued CCW would like to have universal reciprocity.  AND, universal reciprocity would act to force People's Republic States like MD, MA, CA, IL, HI, and others to recognize foreign permits, when it won't even issue them to their own residents (at least on a "shall-issue" basis). 
On the other hand, what right does the Fed have telling the States that they must honor a CCW issued in another State?  None is the answer.  And protecting State soverignty from the ever growing/grasping Fed is the greater good here.  Just because the purpose of this particular legislation was unusually beneficial to individuals (extending rights, rather than the usual restricting or taxing), doesn't make it right. 

The actual rule is for "reciprocity" that would have no effect on states that do not issue permits.  The law called for abiding by the CCW laws of the state you are in not the one where the permit was issued.
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