Update on Factory Pro Install

[PeaGoody]

Well, it has been a few weeks since I let everyone know how the Factory Pro Jet intall went and if it solved my problem with my 97' Standard.  First the problem.  Three weeks prior, I rode the beast and there was not a hint of a problem.  Jumped on the bike 3 weeks later, choked it, started up normally without hesitation.  When I gave it throttle, the bike would bog down and shut down.  This would happen with the choke on or off.  With only 33K on the bike and it's age, I figured it was time for a carb cleaning and why not upgrade to the Factory Pro Jets while I was at it.

The Factory Pro install was easier than I anticipated and thanks Robert for getting me through the install.  Now, I only did a particial tear down of the carbs.  Just took the bowl, vac chamber areas apart and shot them with carb cleaner and compressed air.  Put carbs back on bike, hit the start button, bike turned over without a problem.  Gave it a little throttle and still had the same problem prior to changing out the jets.

This week I went back and tore the carbs all the way down.  Soaked the bodies overnight in carb/parts cleaner.  I replaced every O-ring in all the carbs and also the intake O-Rings.  I did not replace the vac sliders, the SE valves or the float needles or floats and the air cut off valves, because they looked OK to me.  Just got everything back on today and I am still experiencing the same problem.

Now, I have checked the ignition, ICM, timing  and cylinder compression and it all checks out fine according to stats in the shop manual.  My only concern is the compression .  The manual says it should be 171PSI but I figure that's for a new bike.  I have 3 cylinders reading 145PSI and 3 showing 150PSI with 33k on the odometer and there is no change in the PSI after squirting oil into each cylinder and running the test again. I still do not believe compression is the problem.

So, are there any other things that anyone can suggest that may be causing this problem?  I still believe it is carb related but I am stumped.

[boss hoss bill]

PeaGoody

I had a similiar thing happen to me, I took my bike in for some service and as part of it,they pulled off my gas tank.
When I got it back, it had a pinched vent line, (the one that comes off the rear of the tank, pretty small in diameter.)

I would ride it for a while, then it felt like it was running out of gas, no power and then it would shut off.
If I let it sit a few minutes, it cranked up and after a little while it would do the same thing again.
My mechanic thought either petcock or vent line. He admitted they screwed up in kinking the line when they put it back together, Since then , about a year and a thousand or so miles, not one problem.
Hope this helps
Bill

[PeaGoody]

Thanks, but that's not the problem.  I am running the bike on an external IV-type fuel supply and getting the same problem as when the tank was on.  I also, elimintated the vac tube on the tank when I installed a Pingel valve a few years back.

[Slammer]

to the carbs. If they are not on the carb and air can be sucked around them it will fall on it's face under accel. Pull the air filter, loosen the clamps and rotate the tubes to check the back side.

[Garland]

You don't have a fuel filter installed, do you? I had one that I had to remove because it kept starving the engine...

[Robert]

compression is not the problem its not far enough off to cause what your talking about. Did you blow out the idle screws and the emulsion tubes? How does it idle, are you sure you are putting the choke on all the way, did you check the valve timing. I agree on the fuel issue do you have some carb cleaner to spray into the carbs on acceleration? I was thinking that if the choke is not working by spraying fuel into the carbs while trying to get the bike to pickup that if it does it will confirm a carb issue. Also did you check the plug wires to make sure they are going to the correct cylinder. I wish I could put my hands on it, its so much easier than by remote. Well I was just thinking did you check all the vacuum lines and make sure they are ok? The California model has a bowl vacuum that will do what you described to it.

[PeaGoody]

I have replaced all the vacuum hoses.  Like I said, it starts right up with the choke engaged but if you give it any throttle with the choke on or off, it stalls out.  This is an American made bike and is non-California, so there's smog stuff to check.  All these symptoms are the same prior to disassembly of the carbs.  The only thing left to replace on the carbs are the sliders, air cut off valves and float needles.  I hesitate to go this far because of the cost associated with these parts.  At this point, the only option I see is to find a whole new carb assembly off a known running bike and put those on to see if things improve or stay the same.  This afternoon I tracked down an ex-Honda technican locally and he was no help at all.  How much does the Pair Valve that sits on top of the carbs play in fuel delivery?  I have not seen where these are a common problem with the fuel system.  I did take out the pair check valves that sit on top of the engine block off and tore them down to check condition.  There was no indication of anything wrong with those.  Boy! I can get these carbs torn down and put back together in my sleep after the past month of dealing with this problem.  It also appears that many of you are running out of ideas or it is just as baffling to you as it is to me.  I really don't want to take it to a Honda dealer.  The one in the Richmond, Va. area are not the best with customer service.  I'll keep plugging away until I find something I guess.

[BonS]

I feel your pain! Just another stab in the dark: Have you checked your air filter box for decay/debris? Does your exhaust smell rich or is it a bit smokey? No backfiring? Does your engine bog and die?

[Madmike]

Here's some links to related reading: 

http://www.rattlebars.com/mtz/shims.html

http://www.factorypro.com/tech_tuning_procedures/tuning_carbtune,CV,lower_rpm_engines.html

http://oldmanhonda.com/MC/Rcarbs.html

http://hondanighthawks.net/carbhelp.htm

IMHO:

I do not believe that you have any problem with your compression, you may want too check your gauge for accuracy but you seem to have had very consistent results and the oil did not boost the pressure so it would appear that your rings are good.

From your posts it would seem that the engine runs at idle speed if you use the enrichers, this would suggest that the engine is running lean.  As well it seems to bog when given throttle - gets too much air before it gets it's fuel - a lean condition.

Will it idle without using the enricher???

What is the RPM that it will hold at idle??  Have you tried to increase the low idle speed to help get it running????

What did you set your pilots at when you cleaned the carbs?? ('98 49 state model  = 2 1/4 turns out).????????

Did you check all of the diaphragms when you had it apart to make sure none were holed????

When you were having the flooding problem a while ago what was the actual problem that caused this??????

Is your synchronization so far out of adjustment now that the carbs have been apart several times that you need to do a static adjustment to get a starting point?????

Have any of the sync adjustment screw tabs been bent on reassembly??????

Good Luck

[roboto65]

I do not see anything in any of the posts about the idle jets pilot jets whatever same thing anyhow did you replace these or just clean them??

I had a Magna that I cleaned cleaned and cleaned again it still would not rev like yours I finally replaced the Idle jets problem solved it does not take much to clog them up and sometimes no amount of cleaning will fix them!!!   Well with what I have in my garage 

[PeaGoody]

Jets were replaced with Factory Pro Jets.  Initial pilot screw setting was 1.5 turns on first try as suggested by many on this board who have switched to Factory Pro Jets.  After another tear down and reassembly, I set the screws at 1.75 turns with no change. 

I can get the bike to idle without any choke but it will eventually shut down if I don't give it more choke.  If I can get a consistent idle rpm I think I will try the static carb sync although I do not believe that was my problem before I started the carb rebuild because I have the exact same symptoms prior to any work being done.  As I said in my previous posts, I rode the bike with no symptoms or hints of problems, let it sit for 3 weeks in between rides, hopped on 3 weeks later and these symptoms appeared.  Those vacuum sliders that everyone keeps suggesting may be the problem still concern me a little.  I have looked at those things four times using a small LED pinlight in the dark to check for the tinest holes and have not seen anything.  Could there still be a small tear or hole where the rubber meets the plastic slider that is not visable?  Those sliders ain't cheap from Honda($61 and change each)Thanks everyone for your input to my situation.  All the suggestions make me think about things a little more and makes me question what I may have missed or be missing.

[Kingbee]

If a slider diaphram is bad, there'd just be a miss in that cylinder when applying throttle, it wouldn't cause your bike not to idle with enrichener off.

[alan]

I'm new here as I finally found a 00 I/S just last week, but I've been lurking. Have you thought maybe you are having a spark problem caused by a failing coil or a corroded wiring connection? If you let it idle, bog it down, and pull the plugs immediately, what do you see? Wet plugs, dry plugs?

[roboto65]

I see you did the Main jets but what about the idle jets these clog very easy and sometimes need to be replaced as no amount of cleaning helps like I said in the other post I had to replace mine and solved it and short of sonic cleaning I tryed it LOL  Some even put I think 38 jets in to help...

[Robert]

The sliders are not the problem dont spend the bucks and before you spend any more money I would like you to be able to get closer to the problem instead of throwing money at it. What setting do you have the needles on? Did you pull the plugs to check what they look like? Maybe the plugs are fouled and need to be replaced but check first. Does it run on all cylinders when it runs? You can check fuel to the bowls by opening the bleed screws on the bottom of the carbs and see if fuel comes out. I remember you have it hooked to a external fuel source so this should be easy to check. Make sure all the carbs are opening too and that the linkage is set up correctly. These are all things that I would do if I was there. Can you record a sound byte of how the bike sounds when its running? Kingbee did that and it was really a good idea. Things are so hard to diagnose at a distance its not that we are running out of ideas its just checking everything by this board is not my favorite way to diagnose. As a side note I would remove the pair valve because you are right there.

[Blackduck]

It sounds like a fuel supply problem, you stated that it will start and idle but you need to use the choke to keep it idling. Maybe an air/vacuum leak but that should show up straight away and require constant choke. When you had the carbs apart did you inspect the needle and seats? Did you blow air back through the seats?
Good luck with a very infuriating problem
 Blackduck

[PeaGoody]

Thanks Robert for your suggestions.  I had already done all the things you suggested a few days back.  Plugs are good, there is gas getting to the float bowls and she fires on all cylinders.  I went through all the carbs again yesterday to see if maybe I missed something and could not find anything.  I used a pinlight and a magnifying glass to look into the ports to check for any abnormal things.  No luck.   I like the sound bite idea but I have the carbs off at this time and I plan to give it a little time before I go back to working on the bike.  This thing has just really got me worked up because this is not usually the way things go for me working on Honda carbs.  In the case of the Valk, if there are parts to replace with the carbs, it is times 6 and it's not easy to narrow down to just one carb being the problem.  I even went back to recheck resistance readings on all the plug wires and look for any possible breaks.  It all checks out fine.  It all points back to the carbs.  I'm beginning to think that one or more of the air-cut off valves may be part of the problem or that there is an obstruction within the carb body that I can not see and it will not dislodge.  As a side note, when I restarted the bike yesterday I had the pilot screws two full turns out.  Also, when started on full choke, everything seems normal.  With choke off, it will idle aroung the 300-400 rpm range and then bog down.  When you twist the throttle a little with the choke on or off, it will bog down all together.  If I get things back together this week, I will get a sound bite to you as you suggested.  At this point I know what is not the problem.  Ignition, compression, vacuum leaks, pinched gas lines, main or slow jets and carb O-rings.  Thanks again Robert for all your help and suggestions.  I will keep you up to date on any progress as soon as I have any.

[Robert]

The problem doesn't sound like a one carb thing because the bike will run and stay running on one even two cylinders being out and it will even accelerate with one or two out. Maybe not as quickly but it will do it and even idle. Now 3 or 4 that gets a bit harder and thats why I am having a problem with this because it sounds like its all the carbs not just one or two and for all to fail thats a bit hard to imagine. I know your running it on a external source but is it possible to have bad fuel like maybe you filled the tank and the fuel you are using is what you took out of the same container? Are you running a ignition module like the Dyna? You said you checked the plugs but what colors were the insulators? white, brown,tan? and were they even in color among all the plugs or were a few really off. Also since you have been this far and really dont have a solid answer yet I would pull the front timing cover just out of interest and see if all the marks line up properly. If the cams are off you can get this kind of reaction and I remember you did a compression test and some cylinders were off just a bit. If the valves on one side are bent just a bit then it may kick back through the intake and would accout for the mixture needing to be full rich to run. I also agree with checking the air cut off valve on the side of the carb I dont know its specific function but if its air cut off by dealing with the slide then that may be a problem. But it sounds like a more than one cylinder problem. I hate to do a job more than once but its so nice to be able to pull a part off and on at sonic speeds 

[alan]

I made a suggestion about a weak spark being a problem. Low input voltage to a coil or a poor ground can cause that blue spark you see out in the free air to "collapse" under compression. There are adapters that screw onto the spark plugs that actually let you see what the spark looks like with the engine running. I'm old so I forget what they are called. I suggested to pull the plugs and look at them immediately after it bogs down. Wet plugs would indicate fuel that isn't being burned. The black/white (color?) wire that is common to all three coils runs through the "stop" switch on the right handlebar. Ran perfectly, nothing changed, sat for three weeks..... See where I'm going?  Maybe I'm out in left field here, but a few screws and a quick look, maybe follow along and check any connectors, couldn't hurt at this point. Fuel, air, compression, spark.

[Madmike]

"...I also agree with checking the air cut off valve on the side of the carb I dont know its specific function but if its air cut off by dealing with the slide then that may be a problem....."



http://oldmanhonda.com/MC/Rcarbs.html

"......9) PILOT (SLOW) JET:Piolet
There will be one final jet in this area, the pilot or slow jet. This jet controls the fuel while the bike is idling and is normally in the worst condition. It can be found under a rubber plug and has a slotted head that can be screwed out. This baby has to be super clean! Soak it and blow compressed air through it until clear. PROBLEM: the pilot jet wont open up! This happens a lot and can be troublesome. You have two options; 1) buy a new one or 2) buy a carb jet cleaning set (offered in Dennis Kirks Catalog). The cleaning set is actually a set of small wires that can be used to push through the jet carefully. The other thing that can be used is a guitar string, sorry I dont remember which one.

10) AIR SCREW:Air Screw
On the side of the carb, sometimes the bottom, the air screw can be found. Gently screw the air screw in and note how many turns it takes to gently bottom out. This information may be helpful later.The air screw works with the pilot jet to supply low idle mixture to the engine. Remove it and watch out for a spring, metal washer and rubber washer. Make sure it is clean........"

[John Schmidt]

First, did your disassembly involve a change in the area of the idle control? That little knob you can adjust with your fingers in between the cylinders on the right side. Second...double check your linkage where the choke sliders on each side hook onto the individual "enriching" plungers for each carb. Are any of them not attached/hooked into their respective plunger, and are any hooked into that plunger closer to the carb than it should be. Seems impossible at first glance but believe me, it can be done. DON'T ASK!

Are the throttle cables attached to the correct side of the control wheel on the carb bank. It's easy enough to get that all out of whack.

Just some ideas, nothing more.