Gasp! Oil...sigh...LEAK! Please Help!

[Mitchapalooza]

Fellow Fat-Lady Riders,

So I have gone through and done most maintenance items on my 98' Fast Black Valk with 35k miles.

These include:
Fresh 4t 10-W40 Mobile 1 Synthetic Oil (and yes, a new crush washer) + OE Honda Filter
New OE Air Filter
Coolant Change
Final Drive Oil Change
OE Spark Plugs (figured I may as well)
New Timing Belts (rather safe than sorry)

The oil and filter was changed last week (Thursday, I think) and I have noticed no leak since then other than a little fork oil which I remedied with couple of quick swipes with a cut up 2 liter coke bottle.
I rode probably 40-50 miles yesterday and put her in the garage about midnight.  I came out this morning and, hold your breath, there was a small pool of motor oil on the ground.  I was hoping it was water from yesterday's wash, but no - it's very clean motor oil.  After fretting about it all morning, I took part of my lunch to go home and take a closer look.  It probably wasn't much oil all together, but WTH is it leaking and where from??  I re-checked the drain plug and crush washer and even re-tightened it. There was a drop pooling from the drain plug, though after further inspection, there appears to be oil on the bottom of the pan (right side only).  I tightened the couple of bolts in the rear as well, however I'm not sure where exactly it is coming from.  Did not see any damage (holes or cracks) in the ribbed pan area and there was no oil around the filter.  I'm at a loss here folks.  Checked the dipstick and the level is good.  I will disclose (however dumb it was) that when I was doing the oil change initially, my GF came out and I got distracted - filling 2.9 quarts without the drain plug in!  $30 and a trip to the auto store later, I put the drain plug back in and put roughly 3.8 quarts in (as I figured some of the new oil was seated in the new filter/pan.  Probably doesn't make a difference though.  I basically wiped the whole pan down and the ground and will check it once I get home to see if it is still leaking.  If not, I'll ride the hell out of it and check it again.  I'm stumped, as Hondas don't leak oil.  ???

Please help!  I have pictures if need be. 

[big poppa pump]

Check to make sure your dipstick and your oil filler cap are secured tightly.

[Mitchapalooza]

My initial thought as well.  I checked both and they are good and tight.  No oil residue around that tranny area either - just on the bottom of the bike concentrated on the right-hand side.

[hubcapsc]

I'm stumped, as Hondas don't leak oil.

On the rare occasion they leak from the easily fixable shifter seal...

-Mike

[Mitchapalooza]

Thought about that too, Mike.  Although I did not check the shifter seal specifically, there didn't appear to be any oil on the left side of the bike.  This makes me think it is another issue.  I'll look more closely when I get home, though I'm not thinking that it's the shifter seal.

[Patrick]

It sounds to me like it left over from the oil change. Just clean the heck out of the bottom side of the engine and see what happens[  since you said its not coming from the filter area].
About the only other place that tends to leak once in awhile is the shifter shaft seal, but, that doesn't appear to be your problem.

[Jess from VA]

If you added oil with the drain bolt off, even though you cleaned up, perhaps you did not get it all.

Is your breather (drool) tube still capped/plugged, have you drained it lately?  It is very close to the drain bolt.

Sometimes (after changing) a bit of rear end dope comes out the vent on top and runs down, is the leak in back?

The shifter seal rarely leaks copious oil.  Mine oozes a bit, but not one drop has ever hit the ground.

Could the leak be from the filter?  The rubber gasket can be defective.  It should be oiled before install and that is when you would normally find a defective (non uniform) gasket.

IF you remain stumped, clean everything up (floor too), run the bike to hot sitting, and look for fresh leak, from somewhere.  Use super bright light for observation.  Clean oil is hard to see.

[Chrisj CMA]

If the leak still remains......I suggest taking the timing belt cover off again and see if there is oil inside there.....if there is PM me

[Mitchapalooza]

Jess,

I wiped the whole garage floor down after the change and swept, so that's not it.
I have not touched the breather (drool) tube (in fact, I'm new to working on this bike so I'm not even sure about it), so I'll have to do some homework on that and check it out.
The leak does appear to be somewhere in the back/right section of the bike - basically from the drain plug on back and about the middle of the engine.
The leak is not coming from the filter.  The seal is good and I always put a ring of new oil on it before install. 
I'm with you on the last comment.  Once I get out of this suit and into garage clothes, I'll go through it with an LED and rag/toothbrush until it makes me crazy 

[Mitchapalooza]

Chrisj,

I'm curious as to what oil in the timing belt housing would be indicative of...  Sounds scary.

[Highbinder]

Could be you just put to much oil in it...if you put 2.9 qts. in and it ran out and then put 3.8 qts. in, there might have been more still in the engine and filter then you thought...it only takes 3.9 qts. to start with.

[Chrisj CMA]

Chrisj,

I'm curious as to what oil in the timing belt housing would be indicative of...  Sounds scary.

On some bikes (mine is one) one of the bolts for a tensioner goes into the oil jacket and must be adequately sealed.  Its not a big deal unless you dont adequately seal it.

[nogrey]

Did you remove the correct oil drain plug?    And I'm not being a smart-aleck here. I once removed the plug on the left side of the engine (uses a 8mm allen wrench if I remember correctly). Drained the oil and then put the oil in the crank case. I over-filled it. Fortunately I realized it before it was damaging (didn't even turn it on). Anyway, I know it's a "stupid" question (until someone like me does it), but you did drain the oil from the plug that requires a 14mm socket on the right side of the engine, right?
I'm really not trying to insult your intelligence. It's just a darned strange leak you're describing.

[R J]

I'll lay my $$$$ on the drool tube on the right rear of the engine is full and overflowing.

[Ricky-D]

The oil drain bolt is 17mm hex.

***

[Jess from VA]

Here's the breather.  If it is really backed up, it could be the issue.  Most of us who check it 3-4 times a year get an ounce or so (worse after an all day rain ride).  If you get a lot of liquid gunk, that might be it.  However, what comes out of the breather cannot be mistaken for new clean oil.

http://www.valkyrieriders.com/shoptalk/bongobreather.htm

I don't know if you have bags in back, but reach in there and rub your final drive below the chrome breather on top (it's pressed in, do not pull it off).  Mine has squirted out a little a couple times.  Of course 80-90 wt feels more like sticky honey than fine 10-40.

 

[eric in md]

  also make sure its not your fork seal blown and it really blows back on engine ,,

[Mitchapalooza]

Highbinder, you could be right.  I tried to account for it by adding less oil the second go-round.  However, I did also let the pan fully drain for 15-20 minutes when I realized my mistake to try and avoid that situation.

Chrisj, I know which bolt you speak of!  I saw it in my manual (top bolt towards the left) and noticed that it did have a sealant on it when I pulled it (more difficult to pull).  It was very snug going in there and I went ahead and put a little silicone on the deeper threads for good measure (all I had).  I'll take a look if I'm out of ideas.  Good call. 

Nogrey, yes - I'm sure I removed the correct plug.  Smart-aleck.

RJ, you may be right.  I'm headed home right now to check it.

Jess, I do have hard bags on the back.  Though you are right, it is definitely not 90wt oil and there's no mistaking that.  I'll check/drain the breather and see how much I get out of there.

Eric, now that's an interesting theory.  Like I said, I did have a minor fork leak which I've been periodically checking the last few days after my redneck plastic bottle fix.  I suppose, at speed, that fork oil would spray back and could trick you up.  It's about the same consistency and color of new oil.  However, I was sure to wipe it down very good after the fix and after the wash.  Therefore, I'm thinking it would also be all over the caliper/pads/radiator/timing belt cover, etc. Worth a look.

[Jess from VA]

Well, if it was overfilled, but the stick is now level, it may have already blown out the excess, and all further searching may be in vain.   

[signart]

I had a Valk that never leaked a drop,... until one day after an oil change the drain plug refused to seal properly and started leaking no matter how tight I turned it. Not a lot, but just stayed wet. Careful not to over tighten so as to strip the drain bolt threads, I decided to get a new bolt seal. They just don't last forever. You should not have to use all that much torque to make it seal, as it ages might take more as years go by.

[Chrisj CMA]

Chrisj, I know which bolt you speak of!  I saw it in my manual (top bolt towards the left) and noticed that it did have a sealant on it when I pulled it (more difficult to pull).  It was very snug going in there and I went ahead and put a little silicone on the deeper threads for good measure (all I had).  I'll take a look if I'm out of ideas.  Good call. 

Just to be clear.  I am talking about one of the bolts  that holds one of the belt tensioners, not an exterior bolt for the chrome belt cover.  If we are talking about the same bolt.  A little silicone would not have sealed mine.  I needed to use a high grade gasket forming material.  (yamabond 4)

[Mitchapalooza]

Okay Guys,

I looked at everything and believe I found the culprit.  When I came home there was a little bit of oil pooled on the ground.  Based on the placement and oil on the bike, there was only one possible place of origin - the drain plug.  Due to the fact that the. Bike was/is on its side stand, it would drip out of the drain bolt and slowly slide to the left of the bike, coating the underside of the engine and finally dropping about the middle of the bike.  Why would it be leaking?  Because the dealership sold me a bad/the wrong crush washer...  You'll notice that the inside of where. The drain bolt/washer seats is perfectly grooved for the washer to fit.  I have a 2-3mm gap there and the washer seats too far to the outside (right side of bike).  I confirmed this by comparing the old washer that I have used without incident the last two oil changes and even the thickness is different.  The washer was purchased as a package along with a new air filter, spark plugs and oil filter specifically for 97-03' Valkyries.  Just goes to show you - dealerships are people too.  So, I suppose I'll either deal with the slow drip or just drain all the oil, install the old washer and put the same oil back.  Forks are squeaky clean and the drool tube has been drained (nasty stuff).  Thanks for the suggestions, ideas, etc. folks!

One more thing, I'm installing risers tomorrow.  It looks like there are chrome caps on the 4 bolts that hold the OE bars in place.  Do I simply pry those off?

Thanks

[Bighead]

90k mile and change oil every 3k so 30 oil changes with original washer and no leaks. So why change it now I am asking myself?

[Mitchapalooza]

No idea, came with the package!  You can bet the old one is going back on though.

[Bighead]

You know what they say if it ain't broke don't fix it I hope your leak is just due to this.

[The emperor has no clothes]

Okay Guys,

I looked at everything and believe I found the culprit.  When I came home there was a little bit of oil pooled on the ground.  Based on the placement and oil on the bike, there was only one possible place of origin - the drain plug.  Due to the fact that the. Bike was/is on its side stand, it would drip out of the drain bolt and slowly slide to the left of the bike, coating the underside of the engine and finally dropping about the middle of the bike.  Why would it be leaking?  Because the dealership sold me a bad/the wrong crush washer...  You'll notice that the inside of where. The drain bolt/washer seats is perfectly grooved for the washer to fit.  I have a 2-3mm gap there and the washer seats too far to the outside (right side of bike).  I confirmed this by comparing the old washer that I have used without incident the last two oil changes and even the thickness is different.  The washer was purchased as a package along with a new air filter, spark plugs and oil filter specifically for 97-03' Valkyries.  Just goes to show you - dealerships are people too.  So, I suppose I'll either deal with the slow drip or just drain all the oil, install the old washer and put the same oil back.  Forks are squeaky clean and the drool tube has been drained (nasty stuff).  Thanks for the suggestions, ideas, etc. folks!

One more thing, I'm installing risers tomorrow.  It looks like there are chrome caps on the 4 bolts that hold the OE bars in place.  Do I simply pry those off?

Thanks

Yes they are just little chrome caps that go on the Allen bolts. Be careful not to let your bars drop on your tank when you loosen them.

[Mitchapalooza]

Agreed, Bighead.

Meathead, thanks bud.  I plan on tying the bars to the ceiling joists and putting a movers blanket over the tank.  Safe than sorry.

[Bugslayer]

Glad it wasn't more than just a washer....   

[signart]

I would almost bet that the failure of the washer first occurs after an oil change. It just refuses to seal again and no amount of torque is going to force it to. In your case as in mine, (only my oem failed) I played musical washers until I got one to work. Couldn't wait for an oem replacement. Also I just loosened the drain bolt while keeping upward pressure and thumbed the hole while I changed the washer with my other hand. Didn't lose much oil.
Like they say, Valks don't leak.

[Ricky-D]

The crush washer has to absolutely fit the drain bolt properly.

A new crush washer should be test fitted on the drain bolt.

There is no "about fitted" that's acceptable.

I mean, this is a no brainer!

***

[Mitchapalooza]

I'm aware of this and rather than do my due diligence, I trusted that the dealer gave me the correct parts.  Funny that I double checked the OE air filter was the same model, same on the oil filter and even checked the gap on each spark plug.  After my fluster with not putting the drain plug in and putting 3qts of new oil in the bike (blame girlfriend, as I have NEVER done anything like that on any vehicle  )  I should have just held the old one up side by side to check the sizing.  I didn't so I guess you guys can learn from my mistake! 

Good idea to just use your thumb, I was afraid I would lose too much oil but, WTH - I've got extra. 

Thanks

[Jess from VA]

Ricky I was about to write the same thing, but it seems possible it could be so close as to not be noticeable yet still leak.  If it was thatclose, I might be going after those that put it in a kit and asking for the right crush washer, and four quarts of oil too.  

But if it overlapped a shoulder on the drain bolt cutout, then I would have to agree with you.  And torquing it down would never be a solution, drain bolts are snugged, not torqued, or the threads are fubar.

Change the clean oil to a clean pan, leave the filter on, no need to completely drain like with dirty oil, use old crush washer.   Run, check dip, add up if necessary.  I've been using the same crush washers on two bikes for years.  Snug, does not crush a crush washer.

EDIT: Or use your thumb and just top up.

And what often happens on my bikes is when I pull the bolt, the washer stays up in the pan cutout. I pull it out, clean and reuse if as new.  This has happened with others not noticing, and people have added a 2d crush washer to the bolt before install.  Also not good.

[Mitchapalooza]

New (old) crush washer installed.  Used my thumb and a retaining funnel to switch it out.  Fits like a glove and the one I pulled off looks like the edges had taken a bullet.  Too thin and too wide by a few mm - amazing the difference.  No more leaking, so I just topped off with the .3 quarts that it had probably lost.  Thanks gents.

[shortleg]

  Check to make sure that you have the washer under the drain
bolt. Sometimes they drop in the pan.
   Simple to see if that is it.
         Shortleg[Dave]

[cmawest]

if you still have it, check the old oil filter and see if the rubber gasket is on it, if not it probably stuck to the engine and you now have 2 of them, which leaks every time