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valknomad
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« on: July 14, 2014, 08:47:16 PM » |
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This is mostly a suspension question. My 98 Valk, recently installed Progressive front springs, General Altima 205/60/-16 Car Tire @ 40psi, Stock rear shocks. Rough ride on anything less than nice smooth roads.
One thing I've noticed with the "car tires", the side walls are very soft (compared to MC tires), this seems to translate negatively in the handling compartment. I am wondering if (you'all) have improved this with the addition of Rear Progressive shocks or had similar experiences.
I have a 2003 Vulcan Nomad as comparison, and the Vulcan is out handling the Valk -Hands Down.
So much so, I chose the Vulcan Nomad for a 1,260 mile trip a couple weeks ago, instead of the Valkyrie, primarily for the suspension issue. (The Vulcan has completely stock suspension).
I would like to get this sorted out or else the Valk is just a useless "Bar Hopper".
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The emperor has no clothes
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« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2014, 09:53:14 PM » |
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I haven't used that tire but I have had 3 different car tires now. And at least for me 32-34 lbs. works best. If that doesn't work for you I would switch back to a M/C tire. I wouldn't let it keep me from riding it.
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R J
Member
Posts: 13380
DS-0009 ...... # 173
Des Moines, IA
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« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2014, 11:28:28 PM » |
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MGM has run several CT's. All of the from 32 to 36 PSI.
Anything above that is toooooooooo much pressure, it makes the sidewalls HARD.
Drop the pressure till you find the sweet ride.
Drop it 2#'s every time. You will hit a sweet spot in handing and ride.
You drop the air another 2#'s and it goes haywire, add the 2#'s back and that is your pressure for that particular tire.
MGM is now a Trike, so I don't have to worry about all that hassle. I just run 34#'s and forget about them till the next time I go for a ride.
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44 Harley ServiCar   |
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Jess from VA
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« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2014, 02:41:03 AM » |
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Are you sure your roughness isn't just the PS shock springs? I had a set installed years ago and it make the front end like a rock (jar your teeth out on bumps). The instal was done right but I always suspected too much oil was used. It took about 18 months before the front end softened up a bit, and they remain tight. Have the same springs in my other Valk and it never had this problem. Other than the ordinary handling issues, my CTs (Goodyears at 40psi) have never been a suspension problem at all. You can always try less CT psi, but 30 lbs for me wallowed.
It is hard for me to understand CT sidewalls being soft, they are designed to carry around 3K car weight all day.
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Bone
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« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2014, 03:08:37 AM » |
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My 3rd CT on a 98 Tourer has 36# cold. Tried several settings this is the best for me and the Valk.
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Pappy!
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« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2014, 06:50:42 AM » |
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Sounds like you made two changes at one time and are blaming the CT.
If your rear shocks are adjustable....adjust them. Set the pressure in the rear as has been mentioned.
I too run a CT with a very soft thin sidewall. No issues whatsoever. Handles a lot better than my previous CT and is about as close in handling to a MT as I think I can get.
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Gryphon Rider
Member
Posts: 5227
2000 Tourer
Calgary, Alberta
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« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2014, 06:51:59 AM » |
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It is hard for me to understand CT sidewalls being soft, they are designed to carry around 3K car weight all day.
CT sidewalls are not designed to carry ANY weight, unless they are run-flat tires. The air pressure carries the weight. On a car, the main purpose of stiffer than usual sidewalls is to minimize lateral flex when cornering. Rough ride on anything less than nice smooth roads.
One thing I've noticed with the "car tires", the side walls are very soft (compared to MC tires), this seems to translate negatively in the handling compartment.
What do you mean by "translate negatively in the handling department"? Exactly how? I run my General Altimax HP 205/60-16 at 35 pounds, do not consider it harsh, and I can drag pegs in the corners. I haven't really played with the pressure, so I don't know if I've settled on RJ's "sweet spot" yet. |
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MarkT
Member
Posts: 5196
VRCC #437 "Form follows Function"
Colorado Front Range - elevation 2.005 km
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« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2014, 08:29:07 AM » |
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This is mostly a suspension question. My 98 Valk, recently installed Progressive front springs, General Altima 205/60/-16 Car Tire @ 40psi, Stock rear shocks. Rough ride on anything less than nice smooth roads.
One thing I've noticed with the "car tires", the side walls are very soft (compared to MC tires), this seems to translate negatively in the handling compartment. I am wondering if (you'all) have improved this with the addition of Rear Progressive shocks or had similar experiences.
I have a 2003 Vulcan Nomad as comparison, and the Vulcan is out handling the Valk -Hands Down.
So much so, I chose the Vulcan Nomad for a 1,260 mile trip a couple weeks ago, instead of the Valkyrie, primarily for the suspension issue. (The Vulcan has completely stock suspension).
I would like to get this sorted out or else the Valk is just a useless "Bar Hopper".
40# is high for a car tire. Lower it and the ride will soften. I run 34#. I've heard reports of running them as low as 18# and I've tried that myself - that's too low IMO. Handling - don't look for car tires for good handling - the point there is traction, life, and low cost. For some the looks. If handling is your priority - go back to a bike tire. But you can improve it by picking the right darkside tire. Pay attention to what riders say here and on other forums, on darkside choices. In a nutshell, look for rounded edges, the more rounded the better. Suspension - stock shocks in back are known to be bad. Progressive 440's, 412's, 416's and 418's in the Progressive line, and there are other brands. ABH is the key - Anything But Honda. I run 416's (air) myself, with an onboard compressor, and match the preload to the load precisely. I also changed the springs in front. Deerslayer is the cushiest riding vehicle I own - better than the wing, and all the cars. Nice that you improved the front suspension, but you're sitting more over the back tire. Good suspension there has a much bigger effect on ride than improving the front. |
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« Last Edit: July 15, 2014, 08:32:00 AM by MarkT »
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dreamchaser
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« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2014, 08:36:39 AM » |
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I had progressive front springs installed on my std. by a shop near me that specializes in Wings and Valkyries. He asked me a few questions about how I ride: solo or 2up, etc. My scoot is firmer in the front and the front responds better than before. I don't notice any harshness from the change. I run Cobras front & rear @ 42 & 46# respectively and stock rear shocks set 1 notch below max. I weigh 250+ and my wife is currently at 107. I agree with Pappy: You made too many changes at the same time & the major change is confusing you in sorting out what to tweek. Play with your rear pressure till you have it at what works best for you, & give it a week before messing with anything else. Good luck,
Gary
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Jess from VA
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« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2014, 09:31:21 AM » |
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It is hard for me to understand CT sidewalls being soft, they are designed to carry around 3K car weight all day.
CT sidewalls are not designed to carry ANY weight, unless they are run-flat tires. The air pressure carries the weight. On a car, the main purpose of stiffer than usual sidewalls is to minimize lateral flex when cornering.
Well, that makes sense, but regular all season radial car tires still have to work with 3K+ pound cars pulling hard Gs thru turns. If air only carries the weight, then sidewall CT stiffness must be regulated by how much air you carry in them. So if they are wobbly, they must need more air. And they aren't exactly easy to spoon on a rim by hand.
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valknomad
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« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2014, 12:25:17 PM » |
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I did not make too many changes at one time. The CT has 7,000 miles (about two years ago), the progressive front springs in April 2014 (and I like the improvement).
One response mentioned the word "wallow"... I like that description.
And Yes, Car tires "dooooo" have a softer sidewall, than Motorcycle tires.
I have no problem cruising through twisties on my CT. I would think lowering psi from 40psii, to 38psi, or 36psi.... would make a CT "wallow" more?
I guess my inevitable question is, trying to determine how much "improvement" will Rear Progressive shocks, make up for the CT on the rear. Thanks
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Gryphon Rider
Member
Posts: 5227
2000 Tourer
Calgary, Alberta
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« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2014, 12:30:09 PM » |
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Well, that makes sense, but regular all season radial car tires still have to work with 3K+ pound cars pulling hard Gs thru turns. If air only carries the weight, then sidewall CT stiffness must be regulated by how much air you carry in them. So if they are wobbly, they must need more air. And they aren't exactly easy to spoon on a rim by hand.
Well, I've only mounted one car tire and no motorcycle tires on my Valk rim myself, and, yes, it was difficult. Someone cut up a car tire, a motorcycle tire, and, I think, a GoldWing rim and took pictures to prove his point about the unsuitability of car tires on motorcycle rims. I'll show them for my purpose of illustrating and comparing sidewall thicknesses.   |
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Jess from VA
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« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2014, 12:59:38 PM » |
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OK, definitely more material in the bike tire sidewall.
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The emperor has no clothes
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« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2014, 02:12:41 PM » |
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Well, that makes sense, but regular all season radial car tires still have to work with 3K+ pound cars pulling hard Gs thru turns. If air only carries the weight, then sidewall CT stiffness must be regulated by how much air you carry in them. So if they are wobbly, they must need more air. And they aren't exactly easy to spoon on a rim by hand.
Well, I've only mounted one car tire and no motorcycle tires on my Valk rim myself, and, yes, it was difficult. Someone cut up a car tire, a motorcycle tire, and, I think, a GoldWing rim and took pictures to prove his point about the unsuitability of car tires on motorcycle rims. I'll show them for my purpose of illustrating and comparing sidewall thicknesses. Cool pics G.R. I'm curious how they show they prove his point that the car tire is unsuitable. Looked good to me. |
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Pappy!
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« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2014, 07:54:44 PM » |
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Don't worry about it meathead!
The sidewalls in my Vredestrian are a lot thinner than that tire shows. Of course it is an Ultra High Perf tire so that may make a difference. Would be wrong to assume all car tires have sidewalls like that one. The thought behind the thinner sidewalls is to allow the tire more flex so it can keep more tread on the ground during hard cornering in a car.
Anyway....we are off track on this thread!
Back on track.....................
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