Concealed carry guns.....here we go again....

[Tundra]

KW...Get on the Florida board before you come down. There's about six or seven Valk riders in your area, I usualy bring several along with me from the South, to meet up with them. Winters a good time to be here, you got that right!
  Removed my post, what was I thinking Might as well take out an "guns add" with directions to my house.

[Jess from VA]

Tthere are issues one should consider before choosing a CCW pistol.  It goes without saying you need some level of skill with firearms in general and the revolver or auto you will select in particular.

First you have to ask yourself if you will carry all or most or some of the time or rarely.   Will it be on your person, or in your vehicle/bike?  And how about weather....ie, how hot is your Summer?  You also have to asses the probabilities of trouble where you live and where you go.

A CCW pistol is always a compromise between a great stopper (.45ACP), and something you can actually conceal on your person with a degree of comfort, and in summer heat (a pocket mouse gun).  I started off with a finely tuned  series 70 lightweight commander with a deep concealment IWB behind the back/hip holster.  A great stopper, utterly reliable, accurate to 50 yards; which was fine walking around but painful to wear in the car or on the bike.  So I stopped carrying it.  I found it much easier to put a 1908 vest pocket model .25 in my pants pocket, but this was not a good choice either (even with all new springs).  A good compromise was an airweight J frame .38 with good non +P defensive ammo (but the exposed hammer is a problem). I have since gone to a Kahr P9 in 9mm, and yes they are steep. If I actually go somewhere (at night) I think I might need protection (I almost never do), I can go back to a .45.  

Everyone who has already made their choices likely knows all this, but for someone making them for the first time, I recommend thinking small, light and reliable (over accurate and big bore).   A beretta or taurus .22 tip barrel auto in the front pocket of your jeans is way better than the Glock .40 you left home.  The big problem with the mouse guns (and cheaper small autos) is not their lack of power, it is their reliability.  Any armed confrontation you have will likely be face to face to 15 feet.  You have to have it with you, you have to be able to produce it quickly, and it needs to work.  (and it should not be shiny)

I like 9mm in a mini auto (over .40 .45) because I get more ammo in the mag, a lighter loaded gun, better control in repeat shots with a light gun, and the defensive JHP or frangible ammo available in 9mm is very good (compared to the old 115 gr FMJ).   Just another compromise.  

 BTW, if anyone is interested in Kahrs, I recommend you get a 3.5 in barrel over any 3" in any model (and 4" in .45).  Concealability is about the butt and width, not a half inch of barrel/slide, and the difference in sight radius is worth the better control/repeatability in shooting (and a few ft lbs of energy).  The 9 has less recoil than 40/45.  Also, unlike any other auto, the trigger is designed to replicate a nice revolver double action pull; pressure throughout the longer pull with no stacking and a crisp release.  There is no manual safety, so this is it if it is racked and carried in a pocket (please use holster that covers trigger).

Here is P9 (3 1/2") (it can be held tighter than he does).

Kahr P9	powered by Aeva

Here is the PM9 with the 3" bbl. Check the accuracy of shooter and pistola.  The Kahrs all shoot better than most can hold them.
and utterly reliable after the 200 round break in.

KAHR PM9 RANGE FIRE	powered by Aeva

 

[KW]

Good info Jess. . . . .

One of the first 'certification' trainings I attended outside my Department after I became a firearms trainer was paid for by a Federal grant and conducted by a retired FBI training officer. I honestly don't remember the exact statistic, (it was a long time ago), but if I recall right, the distance of the average police/bad guy confortation involving deadly force was LESS than 5 feet AND over 90% of EVERY shot fired MISSED (someone can probally look it up, but I'm close.) I specilized in training our transportaion officers (concealment vs. coverage, weak hand loading/shooting, handgun retention, etc.) I rememebr raming home the stat about officers & patrolmen missing more times than not. . . We always taught; "You going to play how you practice" (bad clichue, but true) and tried to create realistic senarios, but we just never knew how any indiviual would react. So, I guess I would say that's the primary concern for someone who is carrying; "What are you going to do?"  My advice if you're unsure? Don't carry - don't even think about carrying in fact - if you're not prepared to use it.   

Hey Tundra; I thought when I saw those pictures of your missing guns you were the either the bravest or meanest (or both?) guy I ever saw!! 

I've rode with a few of the Florida boys a couple years ago. Good group. Lord willing, we'll have the Valk down there this coming winter again. . .

[Jess from VA]

Well........ the will to use it if necessary is essential.  A defensive mind set.  You have to have the will, ability and know when you can or cannot shoot.   Both times I drew a pistol I had the right to show it, but did not shoot to resolve the issue. 

I never taught shooting for a living, but have trained a dozen or more men, women and young people over the years.  What I taught in USAF Jag was use of deadly force, rules of engagement, and Haig/Geneva/law of armed conflict to SPs (and pilots).  When, not how.

Simple really (hah).  You can only use a lethal force against a lethal threat.  Use the least force necessary to keep yourself or others safe.  You may have a duty to retreat.

[KW]

I agree. . . . but, NO ONE HAS YOUR PRESPECTIVE during an incident and during any post-incident review, all you have to do is be prepared to articulate that prespective. We taught that as well.

Does your State have the Castle Doctrine? Michigan finally passed it and joined Florida (1st state I believe) in saying 'you don't have to retreat' to defend your property (vehicle or house.) 

[Sodge]

I got the Bersa .380 Thunder and liked the size and feel for CC but just wasn't comfortable carrying an auto so I got a J frame S&W airlite .38. Couple other posts have showed pic. Go with the hammerless to avoid any snags and would recommend a matte black finish.

[Jess from VA]

Does your State have the Castle Doctrine? Michigan finally passed it and joined Florida (1st state I believe) in saying 'you don't have to retreat' to defend your property (vehicle or house.) 
[/quote]

No, it passed State House, but was killed in State Senate last year.  It isn't really necessary as long as you act 'reasonably in fear of life or great bodily injury.'  It's a good law, but the part of it that I would really like is the immunity from civil action if you act within it's guidelines.  In the South, laws have never been too strictly aimed at duty to retreat in your own home.   

[doubletee]

Re: Castle Doctrine

I will end up in jail if there's a law that says I have to retreat in my own house!  It's my house and no one has any right to be in it unless I invite them. 

I just read where a would-be robber entered a retail establishment armed with a knife and threatened the clerk. The clerk shot him, and now the perp has filed a civil suit claiming "mental anguish, anxiety and emotional distress and loss of capacity for the enjoyment of life." Such BS. (sorry for a partial thread hijack)

[fudgie]

Re: Castle Doctrine

I will end up in jail if there's a law that says I have to retreat in my own house!  It's my house and no one has any right to be in it unless I invite them. 

I just read where a would-be robber entered a retail establishment armed with a knife and threatened the clerk. The clerk shot him, and now the perp has filed a civil suit claiming "mental anguish, anxiety and emotional distress and loss of capacity for the enjoyment of life." Such BS. (sorry for a partial thread hijack)

Now I see where the clerk is in the wrong. He did not shoot to kill!  If I had to retreat into my own house, it would be for one reason...To get my Winchester .45 Long colt long gun.  Still plan on meeting up for the ride to CBR?

[Chrisj CMA]

When the judge asks "Why did you shoot him SIX times?" I will just say "Your honor...I had no time to reload"

[bsnicely]

Hey Jess,  WV passed the " Castle Doctrine " last year and was signed into law, took effect on July 1 2008. Interesting thing about the WV version of the aw, the Castle Doctrine is seen as a complete defense for the use of deadly force, both criminaly and " civil ". This law was put to the test shortly after enactment, a man down on his luck was living in his car on the riverfront here in Huntngton. One evening another man tried to break in on him, he used a hammer to bust the side glass out of the mans car, upon entering the car the resident warned the man he was armed and ordered him out. When the man swung the hammer at him the rsident shot him with his .38, killing him. The zealous prosecuter charged the man with murder. He was found innocent by a jury, the defense atty. used the Castle Doctrine as his defense. Seems wherever you are living is your " home ". In WV you no longer have a duty to "retreat if possible". I make sure the students in my CCW class fully understand the Castle Doctrine. The WV version excludes the use as a defense if you are involved in illegal activities in your home, so I tell them if someone is breaking in to rob your meth lab you may not stand on the Castle Doctrine!!  

[Jess from VA]

Brian, that is a good story.  The case should have never been brought to court.  It is great to be acquitted, but 10K in legal fees is not exactly a satisfactory result.

RE: defense of home; with or without the Castle doctrine.  I may have posted this story before, sorry if so.

A man leaves his doors unlocked and goes to bed.  Later, he hears someone in the house, gets pistol, goes downstairs.  It is dark, he sees a form and shoots it dead.

This is a neighborhood, like many, where there are only three or four style homes, repeated throughout.  A family has moved in days before, into the identical style home.  Their 13yo son is deaf, and coming home from a new friend's home down the street after dark, he mistakenly enters the shooter's home thinking it is his own.  He is now dead.  This is not a clean shoot, even inside a home.  The man is convicted of manslaughter.  You have much more leeway in your home, but it is not unlimited. 

No one should ever leave their doors unlocked (at least at night), I don't care where you live.  A locked door would certainly have prevented this. 

Duty to retreat is often looked at together with the circumstances that led to the shooting.  If the eventual shooter is seen as all or significantly responsible for the provocation that led to the shooting, his later action of self defense is often looked at much more critically.  If you pick/start a fight and the other guy is beating the tar out of you, you may find shooting him to save your life may not be found to be reasonable.  You started it, it escalated, and you did have time to safely walk away before it got to critical mass.  If you go armed, you need to be more polite and willing to suffer non-lethal abuse than you might ordinarily be.  You must always be able to truthfully say that you acted reasonably, under the circumstances that occurred.

[Jess from VA]

Here is a little training video:

SHE probably gets away with this, but it would have better to let him get well inside before dispatching him (I know it messes up the carpet, but do it anyway).   LOL

http://thedigitalfortress.blogspot.com/2009/03/bear-mountain-sports-commercial.html

[Sludge]

Hehehe great video 

[doubletee]

Re: Castle Doctrine

I will end up in jail if there's a law that says I have to retreat in my own house!  It's my house and no one has any right to be in it unless I invite them. 

I just read where a would-be robber entered a retail establishment armed with a knife and threatened the clerk. The clerk shot him, and now the perp has filed a civil suit claiming "mental anguish, anxiety and emotional distress and loss of capacity for the enjoyment of life." Such BS. (sorry for a partial thread hijack)

Now I see where the clerk is in the wrong. He did not shoot to kill!  If I had to retreat into my own house, it would be for one reason...To get my Winchester .45 Long colt long gun.  Still plan on meeting up for the ride to CBR?

Absolutely. Looking forward to it.

[KW]

"Officer the guy said he was going to kill me (kill/rape my wife/children) and I believed him. . . .  I didn't aim, I just wanted to stop him from hurting us. Now I'm too upset to talk any more and would like to wait for my lawyer."

[Ferris Leets]

In New York state, if you use deadly force you WILL go to jail.  They will try to charge you with something.  But, the self and defense of others is very well established.  You had better be right.  I took a course in legal use of deadly force a few years ago.  It was not what I had signed up for but it turned out that is what they were teaching.  One of the lecturers was the instructor for the local police agencys.  she was very knowlegable and answered any questions very clearly.  The basic rule is if you feel your life or someone elses life is in danger you are allowed to stop the threat.  There are a lot of other circumstances covered but that is the main defense.
As far as speaking to the police after an incident.  Her advice was 1: call and request an ambulance.  2: Inform the police that someone has been shot. 3: Call your Lawyer. 4: Unload the gun and put it somewhere out of sight.
After the police arrive if you REALLY feel that you have to say something only state that you were afraid for your life and will only speak more after you have your lawyer present.

[SANDMAN5]

And...when asked why you shot him, say "I didn't shoot to KILL him, I
shot to STOP him because he was a threat to me/us".

[Jess from VA]

"Officer the guy said he was going to kill me (kill/rape my wife/children) and I believed him. . . .  I didn't aim, I just wanted to stop him from hurting us. Now I'm too upset to talk any more and would like to wait for my lawyer."

Excellent advice.  But if you ended up with a perfect two in the chest and one in the head (failer), I wouldn't say I didn't aim. You don't want a single misstatement of fact in the record.  Some scenerios so overwhelmingly speak for themselves that talking freely may be without much risk.  But there is always risk; the stress of the incident and natural anger against the perp(s), even some time later, can result in statments that can hurt you.  Even a law-and-order-man must not view the police as his friends.  Even moreso in jurisdictions that have track record of going after people who defend themselves. And asking for a lawyer immediately will also cause the antenna to go way up, even though it is your right.  Think before you speak. 

[Doc Moose]

Took a course a few years back that also addressed the legal issues of involvement in a shooting incident. 
One point that the lecturer made was that the law abiding victim that defends himself, totally within his legal rights, against a perp in a shooting will more than likely spend about $25K defending himself in the legal system to clear himself. 
Crazy system, eh?

[KW]

Good points all. . . .

Let me clarify my previous post. We instruct "CENTER MASS" when shooting. . .  (ok, use to instruct; I'm retired now.) I believe that’s a universal training method throughout the USA; at least at the Departments and Agencies I came into contact with.  I know of no force which teaches “aiming” during a crucial life threatening incident.  You shoot center mass and you “shot to stop.” I will say this however; During the late 70’s and well into the 80’s some agencies (including mine) taught “shoot to disable.”  The danger – and utter stupidity - of such an SOP should be self-evident to most everyone reading this.

In our library, half of all the top of the book cases are filled with family shooting trophies (not bragging, it was a handicap league. My bride carried us because she kept improving every week  ) Despite this “evidence" of supposed shooting proficiency, should I ever have to discharge a weapon in defense of 'Hearth & Home'  I will say (and be telling the absolute truth) "I pointed my gun and squeezed the trigger. I just wanted to stop him." Will the rounds be bottle capped?  I don't know. . .  but they will all be in the chest, or close enough. . .  to hurt.

That's my take. I'm not trying to present myself as ANY type of expert, legal or otherwise, because I'M NOT. . . but, it was a good thread guys. I enjoyed reading it.  Now, if we can all meet in Florida this winter, I know this guy who knows where 40 or 50 very nice handguns sunk   

[Jess from VA]

Training/practicing for center mass defensive shooting is plain good and common sence.  I always think of Mel Gibson in the Patriot telling his boys "aim small, miss small."  I also practiced shooting from all kinds of cover left, right ,over and under.  And, if there is no cover, to go down to a knee to be smaller .

However, a lot of Feds and special forces expect to go up against bad guys with vests.  So many train double tap to center mass, then a quick aimed followup to the head.......ergo two in the chest and one in the head.  The drill is three seconds to draw and fire three times (yeah, most ranges prohibit draws and rapid fire).  The idea is to draw and get two to center mass as quickly as possible, to leave time to make the last aimed headshot.... under three seconds.

[fudgie]

Training/practicing for center mass defensive shooting is plain good and common sence.  I always think of Mel Gibson in the Patriot telling his boys "aim small, miss small."  I also practiced shooting from all kinds of cover left, right ,over and under.  And, if there is no cover, to go down to a knee to be smaller .

However, a lot of Feds and special forces expect to go up against bad guys with vests.  So many train double tap to center mass, then a quick aimed followup to the head.......ergo two in the chest and one in the head.  The drill is three seconds to draw and fire three times (yeah, most ranges prohibit draws and rapid fire).  The idea is to draw and get two to center mass as quickly as possible, to leave time to make the last aimed headshot.... under three seconds.

Your very wise Jess. What do you do?

[Jess from VA]

You're very wise Jess. 

Thank you Fudge.  Opinions vary though, just ask my wife.


What do you do?

Lots of things. 

You mean for a living?  I'm a Fed civil servant (attorney, since 1980).  Don't hold it against me though, I work for veterans (USDVA).  Former USAF Jag for 9yrs; inactive reserve for 17 more, to expire shortly (I'm too old, they don't want me back  LOL).

[Probie (Scooter57)]

http://www.handgunsmag.com/featured_handguns/bersa_thunder/

Small enough to carry in a front pocket.

You must have bigger front pockets than me, I can't get mine into my front pocket...I've tried.

[Piper]

Signing on a bit late to this one but:

I carry a Glock 36 -.45. Fugly but Glocks do one thing very well, they go bang when you pull the trigger.
It is small-ish and slim for a Glock, single stack. 6 plus 1.
Have various ways of carrying it depending on the weather, where I am going etc.. IWB-SOB, shoulder, fanny pack.
And yes, I made a thigh rig to wear it under my kilt.
(What does a Scotsman wear under his kilt?)
Dang uncomfortable though. I will not go into details but hammer-less is a good thing.
Regimental is out of the question. Thunderwear might be a better choice for next year.

Got all the toys for the Glock: internal laser, night sights, a safety (blasphemy!), and even an internal lock.

I have other pea-shooters, PX4 -.45, Luger, a couple of Erma .380s that I sometimes carry in the truck.
The PX4 is a bit too large to carry in the summer. But it hides just fine under the ranch jacket in winter.