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Highside
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« on: July 23, 2015, 07:06:04 PM » |
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Howdy, folks!
Symptom: Dead 1997 Valkyrie Tourer - 55K Miles - No Spark
We rode our bikes home from dinner last night, stopped for gas on the way. No issues...
Went to ride the bike to work this his morning... no joy! It would not start!
This evening, I began the diagnosis. No spark at any of the plugs!
Is this an Ignition Control Module issue? How could it have died overnight?
I broke out the manual and began troubleshooting until it got dark.
Steps taken:
1. Removed the ICM connector and reseated same.
2. Checked the voltage on the positive terminals on all three coils (battery voltage with key on, 2 volt drop when starting NOT 100 volts as outlined in the manual).
The manual has a list of 10 items to check (for no spark) with the ICM failure being #10.
As I stated, it got dark and I had to stop troubleshooting.
I guess my question is... Can the ICM go bad after parking it for the night? It ran fine all the way home...
Just looking for some hints here. Battery voltage dropped after frequent attempts at starting. Jumped it with the lawn tractor to get battery voltage back up (and starter spinning fast). The battery was fine this morning when I tried to start it. Not fuel related. Just no spark...
Any ideas?
Thanks!
Robert Wiley aka Highside
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RonW
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« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2015, 07:34:44 PM » |
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I'm sure it's not the kill switch.
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2000 Valkyrie Tourer
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Bugslayer
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« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2015, 07:44:53 PM » |
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My '97 Tourer had the exact symptoms that you're experiencing.
We went for a ride. We stopped for a quick rest, but when I tried to restart her, all she would do is spin.
I got her home and checked the plugs. No fire. Tried jump her from my truck battery. She would spin like crazy, but still no fire at any plug. I put in a different ICM..... still no fire.
The problem turned out to be the Ignition Pulse Generator . It's pretty easy to change out. They are located behind the timing cover, and they plug in towards the front of the fuel tank.
After I changed them out, the bike started up like nothing was ever wrong.
Part # 30300-MZ0-003
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« Last Edit: July 23, 2015, 08:06:16 PM by Bugslayer »
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gordonv
Member
Posts: 5762
VRCC # 31419
Richmond BC
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« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2015, 07:46:05 PM » |
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Before you start following the manual, ask here first, you'll get some short directions that may find the problem first, based upon empirical data, rather than a mechanics service manual.
You say you try to start. What happens?
Turn ignition on. Head light comes on. Press start switch. Head light goes out. Starter spins?
Turn the chock on. After spinning for a while, is there a smell of fuel out the back? There should be.
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« Last Edit: July 23, 2015, 07:51:25 PM by gordonv »
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1999 Black with custom paint IS   |
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MarkT
Member
Posts: 5196
VRCC #437 "Form follows Function"
Colorado Front Range - elevation 2.005 km
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« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2015, 01:33:11 AM » |
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I had a similar problem this spring. It turned out to be, the security system had a relay wired into a wire off the ECM ( I forget which wire ). The relay had failed and so it was stopping the juice for the spark. I installed a jumper wire to bypass it. The company that made the security system is gone.
Sounds like you're on track with a manual and a meter. I have a Clymer manual which is much more thorough than the abidged Honda shop manual.
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« Last Edit: July 24, 2015, 01:38:37 AM by MarkT »
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Patrick
Member
Posts: 15433
VRCC 4474
Largo Florida
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« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2015, 06:28:41 AM » |
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If this monster still has a factory ICM I doubt that is your problem, they are pretty bulletproof.
Continue with what your book says, But I'm thinking fuse or pulse generators.
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Highside
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« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2015, 09:50:58 AM » |
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Thanks for the replies, guys!
Further testing has led me to believe that it may well be the Pulse Generators (30300-MZ0-003).
After following the 10-step procedure, I ultimately measured the output of the pulse generators using my Fluke 117 multimeter. Setting it to capture Max DC voltage with the meters' probes on the appropriate terminals (white, 4 pole connector behind steering neck), the max voltage recorded was 0.03 VDC on either pair of terminals). This is supposed to read 0.7 VDC.
The Fluke meter is an RMS volt meter and all online convertors that I have found to convert Max VDC to Peak VDC still falls short of the required 0.7 VDC Peak voltage.
The power, ground confirmation and continuity tests performed on the ICM connector led to testing the Pulse Generator output.
If anyone has concerns about my methodology, or diagnosis, please speak up before I order the pulse generators.
BTW - I have been concerned about timing belts lately and have been hearing "rattling" from under the timing belt cover. After removal of the cover, I found that there was quite a bit of black dust on the components and brownish dust (mainly on the sides of the belts). Using a clean cloth, I cleaned the surface of each pulse generator on the face that faces the timing/trigger wheel (prior to the voltage test). It didn't help... :-(
The belts looked OK but will be replaced as well as tensioner/idler pulleys. One of the pulleys has a little left/right wobble when manhandled. The wobbly (noisy) tensioner may be the source of the brown dust.
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« Last Edit: July 24, 2015, 10:57:27 AM by Highside »
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Bugslayer
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« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2015, 11:15:10 AM » |
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You did a lot better job diagnosing the problem than I did. Mine was more trial and error. But now I have an extra ICM in the toolbox.... just in case.  Please keep up updated on the solution to your problem. I'm putting my money on the Pulse Generator. Good luck!  |
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Highside
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« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2015, 11:37:09 AM » |
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Thanks, Bugslayer!
I will certainly post an update when the parts are installed.
Went ahead and ordered (2) new OEM tensioners / springs as well as the Pulse Generator. Partzilla rocks!
Also, (2) new Gates T275 belts from Amazon (free 2-day shipping).
Hopefully it'll be the last time, in a while, that I have to worry about the timing section of the bike.
With all the hoopla about timing belts lately, and the noisy tensioner, a little piece of mind is welcomed!
Best regards,
Robert
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Patrick
Member
Posts: 15433
VRCC 4474
Largo Florida
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« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2015, 12:06:36 PM » |
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I would think you're on the right track. I like to set the belts just a tad looser than Honda says [ 3/8"]. It keeps them quieter.
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Daniel Meyer
Member
Posts: 5493
Author. Adventurer. Electrician.
The State of confusion.
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« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2015, 12:11:02 PM » |
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What's the actual battery voltage at rest? With the headlight on?
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CUAgain, Daniel Meyer  |
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Highside
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« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2015, 02:38:39 PM » |
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Right now, about 11.6 volts after all the numerous volt meter tests.
Had to get the lawn tractor involved during some of the tests.
I believe it was 12.3 - 12.5 Vdc when I started to test.
Thursday morning, the battery was fully charged when it wouldn't start.
Robert
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Daniel Meyer
Member
Posts: 5493
Author. Adventurer. Electrician.
The State of confusion.
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« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2015, 04:36:25 PM » |
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Right now, about 11.6 volts after all the numerous volt meter tests.
Had to get the lawn tractor involved during some of the tests.
I believe it was 12.3 - 12.5 Vdc when I started to test.
Thursday morning, the battery was fully charged when it wouldn't start.
Robert
11.6 is dead dead dead on a lead acid battery. Valks are well known for cutting out the ignition ICM below certain voltage, even though there may be enough amperage to spin the starter nice. Start with a new battery. That's the most likely failure anyway...if it worked when ya parked it! |
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CUAgain, Daniel Meyer |
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Patrick
Member
Posts: 15433
VRCC 4474
Largo Florida
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« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2015, 03:38:00 AM » |
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I may have misread your posts thinking the battery was good or you had tried a jumper,etc.
The point about these needing a good battery is valid. If the voltage drops much more than a volt or so, the starter will spin but thats it, it won't fire.
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Highside
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« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2015, 12:11:53 AM » |
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Greetings!
As stated previously, the battery was fully charged the mo rning that it would not start.
During the course of the testing, the battery was drained.
I hooked up to a lawn tractor, at full speed to jump it off. Plenty of voltage.
Today, I borrowed my wife's motorcycle battery with the same results. No spark.
The pulse generators are tested without DC power from the bike. They create their own power, albeit minimal (0.7 VDC). They are disconnected from the bike to test.
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RonW
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« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2015, 06:25:51 AM » |
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Might happen but what's the odds of both pg's going bad on the same morning?
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2000 Valkyrie Tourer
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Bugslayer
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« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2015, 07:49:54 AM » |
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Might happen but what's the odds of both pg's going bad on the same morning?
I don't know what the odd's are, but it happened to me. No spark, tried boosting the battery, replaced the battery, replaced spark plugs, replaced the ICM, checked all of the connections. Replaced the IPG................................................ ON THE ROAD AGAIN! |
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Patrick
Member
Posts: 15433
VRCC 4474
Largo Florida
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« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2015, 08:00:34 AM » |
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Might happen but what's the odds of both pg's going bad on the same morning?
There are 2 of them for a reason. |
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RonW
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« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2015, 12:37:50 PM » |
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The pulse generators are tested without DC power from the bike. - They create their own power, albeit minimal (0.7 VDC).
The teeth on the timing wheel induces electricity in the coil of wire housed in the pg's each time the teeth orbits pass the pg's. If the premise above is true, is the timing wheel magnetized? Otherwise, how the heck would a non-magnetized timing wheel induce electricity in the pg's coil of wire? That's presuming the Valk's pg's are ac pickup coils. Sorta like a stator to a rotor. |
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2000 Valkyrie Tourer
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Paladin528
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« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2015, 04:22:41 PM » |
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The pickups are more of a switch. When the Tabs on the weel pass the PG the field collapses and allows the voltage to pass. I thought they needed voltage to operate.
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Patrick
Member
Posts: 15433
VRCC 4474
Largo Florida
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« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2015, 05:10:27 AM » |
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I wondering how things turned out.
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