Starter button or starter relay?

[Tfrank59]

OK, going to show my ignorance here.  How do you test whether your problem with the starting system is the button or the relay?  I tried cleaning the starter button, and I have another starter relay ready to put in, but I'd rather know for sure, if I can, if I need to replace it before I do.  It's really intermittent – I push the starter button, sometimes I just get a click down at the starter relay, sometimes I get nothing, and sometimes it starts right up.  Pretty frustrating, and it's doesn't help that I suck with electrical!    All the connections are tight, and I just replaced the battery.  Appreciate any help you can give.

[Bugslayer]

Did you take the starter button apart and clean the contacts? Sound's like your button to me.

[The emperor has no clothes]

Did you take the starter button apart and clean the contacts? Sound's like your button to me.

+1

[MarkT]

You sometimes get a click at the relay but nothing happens?  In that case the relay is getting the signal but it's not starting.  Not the starter button.  Sometimes not even a click?  The relay. My money is on the relay or the "bendix".  Does it start if you short across the contacts with say, a screwdriver? Yes?  the relay.  No?  The bendix. (Note - I use the term "bendix" to mean the starter engagement solenoid - may not be an actual "Bendix" which have been replaced by better designs in recent years.)

[Tfrank59]

You sometimes get a click at the relay but nothing happens?  In that case the relay is getting the signal but it's not starting.  Not the starter button.  Sometimes not even a click?  The relay. My money is on the relay or the "bendix".  Does it start if you short across the contacts with say, a screwdriver? Yes?  the relay.  No?  The bendix.

Yes, it starts right up if I jump across the relay.  Thanks.  Guess I'll put in the new relay. Still gonna do better on cleaning the starter switch though.

[indybobm]

I think it would start right up when you jumper across the big terminals on the starter relay no matter if the starter button or relay was bad. Still could be either one, or something else.
When you jumper across the relay you are connecting the battery directly to the starter motor.

[MarkT]

I think it would start right up when you jumper across the big terminals on the starter relay no matter if the starter button or relay was bad. Still could be either one, or something else.
When you jumper across the relay you are connecting the battery directly to the starter motor.

Follow the logic: already determined it's not the button when the starter relay clicks - the starter button sent juice to the clicking relay but the downstream chain is broken.  Moving on, jumpering the contacts on the relay - if nothing happens, juice directly to the bendix results in no start - the bendix is bad.  If it does start - then the relay isn't sending juice to the bendix.  So the relay is bad. Easy-peasy.

[DK]

If you are not in neutral, it's most likely the clutch safety switch.

[Bighead]

I would say he is in Neutral as he said he was able to jump it across the starter relay.

[indybobm]

I don’t want to step on any toes but I do not think the Valk has any type of ‘Bendix’. The starter motor spins the engine through a planetary gear reduction assembly (Service Manual Page 18-8) in  the end of the starter. In the ‘Primary Drive Gear Assembly’ there is item #18 ‘Clutch Outer, Starting’.  This looks like a one-way clutch for the starter drive (Service Manual Page 18-13).
Even if any part of the drive assembly was bad in the starter, it would still spin when power is applied.
I have tested a few starter relayss and found that I can get it to click even though there is not enough current capability from the battery to actually engage the relay. I would definitely check the connector on top of the starter relay for corrosion at the terminals. I would also check the ground cable for the battery, the battery connections themselves, and the cable connection to the starter itself.

If the starter motor is good and it gets power, then it spins.

[Moonshot_1]

Clean the starter button again. Sometimes it takes a couple of attempts to get it right. And it won't cost you anything to try. Then work down the line.

[MarkT]

I don’t want to step on any toes but I do not think the Valk has any type of ‘Bendix’. The starter motor spins the engine through a planetary gear reduction assembly (Service Manual Page 18-8) in  the end of the starter. In the ‘Primary Drive Gear Assembly’ there is item #18 ‘Clutch Outer, Starting’.  This looks like a one-way clutch for the starter drive (Service Manual Page 18-13).
Even if any part of the drive assembly was bad in the starter, it would still spin when power is applied.
I have tested a few starter relayss and found that I can get it to click even though there is not enough current capability from the battery to actually engage the relay. I would definitely check the connector on top of the starter relay for corrosion at the terminals. I would also check the ground cable for the battery, the battery connections themselves, and the cable connection to the starter itself.

If the starter motor is good and it gets power, then it spins.

As I already said above:

"I use the term "bendix" to mean the starter engagement solenoid - may not be an actual "Bendix" which have been replaced by better designs in recent years."  

I am using the term to refer generically to any electro-mechanical unit that receives power from the starter relay and engages the starter gears to the flywheel and I think (used to be) involved with initiating and breaking the power to the starter (I'm not certain on the latter); thereby providing starter cranking movement to the engine.  If the relay is delivering full power to this mechanism and it's not working - then it's at fault.  That part used to be the "Bendix"  but as I said, it has been replaced by better tech in current embodiments.  

From Wikipedia:  "A Bendix drive is a type of engagement mechanism used in starter motors of internal combustion engines. The device allows the pinion gear of the starter motor to engage or disengage the flywheel of the engine automatically when the starter is powered or when the engine fires, respectively. It is named after its inventor, Vincent Hugo Bendix."

My point here, is pointing to the failed part - either the starter relay or the device it powers (starter and gear assembly with solenoid that engages the gears).

I second your comments on the connections - particularly at the battery ground to the back of the aluminum engine block.  That is a bad idea on Honda's part. And they don't use a star washer at the connection - pretty much industry standard, I think one of those ISO things (no, I didn't research that, I just suspect it).  I moved that ground to the steel frame and added a grounding strap to the engine on Deerslayer.  Moving that wire was a fix on the side of the road at night on a road trip.

[Cracker Jack]

like indybobm, I don't want to step on anyone's toes. The Valkyrie does not use any "electro-mechanical" device in the starter mechanism. Power is applied by the starter relay and the clutch mentioned in the post above provides the mechanical connection between the starter and engine.

The fact that the starter works when the power contacts are shorted rules out any starter mechanical problems.

You say that the relay clicks when the starter button is pushed (sometimes) and the starter does not run indicates that the relay contacts are dirty/burned and the relay needs to be replaced. If the click is intermittent then that indicates that the starter button needs attention.

Cracker

[indybobm]

Mark, please do not take offense at what I said. All I was trying to say is that except for the spinning armature and gear assembly there are no moving parts in the starter. I try to look at things as a new Valk owner would. You are one of the great wisdoms on the board, I was just trying to clarify something.

[MarkT]

Not offended.  But you guys are nit-picking, preaching to the choir, and missing my point.  WHICH IS, AGAIN - the unit - WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT (that I called a bendix for expediency - OMG - that is what the part with that function used to be - I have worked on vehicles for 50 years) -- that receives power from the relay is working if he shorts across the relay contacts and it cranks.  The part that has failed, per the OP's description of the behavior, is the relay.

If the click is intermittent then that indicates that the starter button needs attention.

Maybe.  I have also seen relays that are intermittent.  My money is on the relay and I'd bet the problem will disappear if it's replaced. For now.  Until the button maybe fails later.  Because a failure is usually one item in a chain.

I'll bet your favorite microbrew on it.

OK Tfrank, who buys the brew?

[Tfrank59]

Wow you guys were very busy while I was at work. .  I think that it could be the starter button and since as someone pointed out I can work on that for free, I'll start there.  My guess is I didn't clean the contacts very well, but if I do that and it still is intermittent, then I'll go next to the starter relay.  I think I've gone over the connections from the battery and the starter a couple of times, but I'll do it again.  I appreciate all your help – and the lively debate – I'll let you know what I learn.

[desertrefugee]

Don't forget to check and verify those ground connections which are just as critical for starting as the battery hot side.

[The emperor has no clothes]

Wow you guys were very busy while I was at work. .  I think that it could be the starter button and since as someone pointed out I can work on that for free, I'll start there.  My guess is I didn't clean the contacts very well, but if I do that and it still is intermittent, then I'll go next to the starter relay.  I think I've gone over the connections from the battery and the starter a couple of times, but I'll do it again.  I appreciate all your help – and the lively debate – I'll let you know what I learn.

When you clean the starter switch again, also make sure the little spring is doing its job .

[gordonv]

Isn't it easy enough to confirm that the starter switch is working properly?

While being able to see the head light, turn on the ignition, press the starter switch. Lights should go out. Release button, lights come back on. If this is not happening, then it's the switch. If it is, it might still be the switch, but look elseware.

You say you have a relay already? Then throw it in there. Look over the connections while you have it apart. Any signs of something wrong, then post, and get the fix.

As already said, jumping the relay is bypassing the safety relay, and applying power directly to the starter. It could still be something else like the neutral, kick stand, or clutch switch.

[zz]

I had the same problem, last month, or should I say in June. There was an open house at our airport here in Carson City. I went and walked around there for an hour or so. I got back to my bike and it started fine, so It was lunch time so I went to a burger joint and had lunch. That is when it started or should I say didn't start. It was a Saturday so I got a push and got the bike going and took it to the Local bike shop, they told me it would be a few days before they would be able to look at it. A week later I called  and was told no one had looked at it. I told them fine I will be over to pick it up in a few. I pick the bike up and took it home and let it sit for a while. I remembered this forum, forgive me I'm old turned 75 August 3 so I forget things. But on reading the posts here I did as told and took the started button out and cleaned it. Back on the road again. Thanks Guys your the best. Al

[Tfrank59]

OK, I did a complete cleaning of the starter switch--what a pain! . Turns out the little copper thingy that's supposed to have some spring bounce didn't have any.  I managed to lose the spring for the ball bearing so I had to come up with another one.  Anyway got everything back together and life is good again.  And after repeated tries the starting system apparently works like it should, but the jury is still out as far as I'm concerned.  I'm taking a long ride tomorrow and will see if the problem recurs.

[Tfrank59]

And the winner is... Starter button.  She's back to where she used to be before this whole thing started, and I know now it's just because of the starter button contacts. Thanks again for your help--You guys are awesome.

[The emperor has no clothes]

And the winner is... Starter button.  She's back to where she used to be before this whole thing started, and I know now it's just because of the starter button contacts. Thanks again for your help--You guys are awesome.

Even though I haven't done it on my standard. I thinks it's a good idea to do as some suggest and route the power thru a relay. The switch will mess up again. You don't want to be in the boondocks when it does. 

[Bugslayer]

And the winner is... Starter button.  She's back to where she used to be before this whole thing started, and I know now it's just because of the starter button contacts. Thanks again for your help--You guys are awesome.

Cool! 

Isn't it nice not having to take the bike to the dealership every time something goes wrong?  Being able to diagnose and fix (most) of the problems that come up sure leaves a good feeling.
Good job.

[baird4444]

And the winner is... Starter button.  She's back to where she used to be before this whole thing started, and I know now it's just because of the starter button contacts. Thanks again for your help--You guys are awesome.

Cool! 

Isn't it nice not having to take the bike to the dealership every time something goes wrong?  Being able to diagnose and fix (most) of the problems that come up sure leaves a good feeling.
Good job.

and an extra 100 bucks still in your pocket...

[Tfrank59]

Yeah, I hope I don't eat these words, but I ain't bring the girl to a stealership for ANY work.  I'll either do it myself (with your guys help), find a good mechanic to do it as a side job, or let the girl go.

[hukmut]

And don't overlook that post on the clutch switch. After cleaning my start switch (it was not bad, just a little dirty), it still would not crank. Looked at my clutch switch and saw some rust.  >:(Yes, I ride in the rain and this switch had gotten wet and corroded. $10 later and I am on the road. But I did jumper it so I could ride in the rain to get another one.