hydro lock and R&M belly tank

[Skipper]

While recovering from surgery put  my 03 standard  in shop and had new pump installed on belly tank. also had low speed jets replaced . Put 100 miles on it and it started raining every day so it set up for 8 days. when i tried to start it was hydro locked. pulled plugs and gas was in 3 cylinders.
 I have been under the impression hydrolock was not possible with belly tank. What could be the problem?

[R J]

While recovering from surgery put  my 03 standard  in shop and had new pump installed on belly tank. also had low speed jets replaced . Put 100 miles on it and it started raining every day so it set up for 8 days. when i tried to start it was hydro locked. pulled plugs and gas was in 3 cylinders.
 I have been under the impression hydrolock was not possible with belly tank. What could be the problem?

Doesn't the belly tank put belly tank gas into the main tank?

If so, hydro-lock is possible.

[Skipper]

Gas is burned from belly via electric pump. gas drains from main tank to belly tank. there is no way for gas to get from main tank to carbs as far as i can see.
 

[The emperor has no clothes]

Gas is burned from belly via electric pump. gas drains from main tank to belly tank. there is no way for gas to get from main tank to carbs as far as i can see.
 

Not necessarily . I know there are some who have rigged their belly tanks to pump up into the main tank and then it flows gravity fed to the carbs. Is there a chance yours was hooked up this way ?

[Patrick]

I don't know about belly tanks, but, there is enough fuel in any line above the float valve to lock a cylinder. It only takes about an ounce.

[Skipper]

When pump went out it would not run and main tank was almost full so i think its hooked up properly. i have had it for 3 years now with no problems till pump died and had work done on carbs.
 

[MarkT]

I don't know about belly tanks, but, there is enough fuel in any line above the float valve to lock a cylinder. It only takes about an ounce.

I certainly hope not.  That suggests the Dan-Marc is useless to stop hydrolock (in a non-belly tank config).

Are there any instances of hydrolock with a Dan-Marc installed?

When pump went out it would not run and main tank was almost full so i think its hooked up properly. i have had it for 3 years now with no problems till pump died and had work done on carbs.
  

Is it possible, with dead pump, it stopped in an open position, so gravity pressure from the main tank could push through the belly tank, ther pump, and on up through the leaking fuel system?  If so that implies a different fuel pump design - say a positive displacement gear pump - might be needed rather than one that can flow fuel while not running.  Or install a Dan-Marc downstream of the pump.  That would also work.
 This concerns me personally, as I am about to install a belly tank in my Tourer.

[Skipper]

I don't know about belly tanks, but, there is enough fuel in any line above the float valve to lock a cylinder. It only takes about an ounce.

when i turned over starter with plugs out there was a pretty good amount of gas blew out of 3 cylinders. i guess i will take it back to shop and see if he can get it straightened out .

[Skipper]

Mark T     the pump was  replaced. Maybe it is the wrong one. he told me it was the same pump withe the same #s that he got from auto parts. I still caint get on the ground to check due to surgery. this was the main reason i put it in  to have it shop insted of replacing it myself. Was hopeing  to have it all done when i was able to ride again

[MarkT]

I'm thinking I'm going to order in a Dan-Marc and install it when I put in the belly tank.

[Skipper]

I replaced my petcock with a pingle soon after i purchased bike.  there are 2 small hoses , one is for vent and one is for reserve. im wondering if they may be crossed and  if so would it cause t his

[BonS]

. . .also had low speed jets replaced . . . when i tried to start it was hydro locked. pulled plugs and gas was in 3 cylinders. . . What could be the problem?

I recommend that you replace the float needles. Every Valkyrie carb set I've seen needed them - and I'm talking gravity feed systems. With a pressurized fuel supply you definitely need them replaced.

[Skipper]

Got a very fast reply from R&M . he says if i leave the key on or have the wrong pump. i'm thinkin it's the wrong pump

[indybobm]

Maybe I am looking at this wrong, but with a fuel pump, it starts pumping as soon as you turn the key on? If you have float problems as Bon suggested, it would not take long to create a hydro-lock situation. i.e. you turn the switch on and 2-3 seconds later you hit the start button. That's 2-3 seconds  to pump gas.

[Skipper]

at 2 to 3 psi i dont see a hyro lockn in the 2 seconds from turnin key to pressin start button. its possible floats have been sticking all along and old pump was checking as its designed to and wolud   not let fuel pass by.  after talking to roger at r&m i am thinkin pump. original pump was designed with double check valves and low psi to mimic free flow.

[Patrick]

I replaced my petcock with a pingle soon after i purchased bike.  there are 2 small hoses , one is for vent and one is for reserve. im wondering if they may be crossed and  if so would it cause t his

Thats not a petcock I'm familiar with. Where did you install it ?

[Skipper]

I don't know about belly tanks, but, there is enough fuel in any line above the float valve to lock a cylinder. It only takes about an ounce.

I certainly hope not.  That suggests the Dan-Marc is useless to stop hydrolock (in a non-belly tank config).

Are there any instances of hydrolock with a Dan-Marc installed?

When pump went out it would not run and main tank was almost full so i think its hooked up properly. i have had it for 3 years now with no problems till pump died and had work done on carbs.
  

Is it possible, with dead pump, it stopped in an open position, so gravity pressure from the main tank could push through the belly tank, ther pump, and on up through the leaking fuel system?  If so that implies a different fuel pump design - say a positive displacement gear pump - might be needed rather than one that can flow fuel while not running.  Or install a Dan-Marc downstream of the pump.  That would also work.
 This concerns me personally, as I am about to install a belly tank in my Tourer.

Mark   from what i was told by R&M the pump has a double check valve for this reason

[indybobm]

Still has to get past the float needles.

[deadpan]

mine hydrolocked 4 months ago,   bad fuel pump. would still let gas flow when key was off,
put in a Dan-marc problem solved.
did the desmog same time.

[Skipper]

I replaced my petcock with a pingle soon after i purchased bike.  there are 2 small hoses , one is for vent and one is for reserve. im wondering if they may be crossed and  if so would it cause t his

 
 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pingel-6211-AH-Power-Flo-Petcock-Inward-Style-Aluminum-03-0505-/231227493982?hash=item35d63b8e5e&vxp=mtr

not exact one i used but same type





Thats not a petcock I'm familiar with. Where did you install it ?

[gordonv]

My understanding from the Shadow, Honda put the power to the fuel pump off the coil. If the bike isn't turning, then there is no electricity to the fuel pump relay. One reason it is so hard to reprime the dual carbs when you run out of fuel.

If the fuel pump starts up with power, and you turn the ignition on, then hit the start button, in that 1-2 seconds, the pump could push enough fuel past the open float needle to hydro lock the engine.

Mount the Dan Marc as close to the carbs as you can. Less fuel in the line then.

[MarkT]

My understanding from the Shadow, Honda put the power to the fuel pump off the coil. If the bike isn't turning, then there is no electricity to the fuel pump relay. One reason it is so hard to reprime the dual carbs when you run out of fuel.

If the fuel pump starts up with power, and you turn the ignition on, then hit the start button, in that 1-2 seconds, the pump could push enough fuel past the open float needle to hydro lock the engine.

Mount the Dan Marc as close to the carbs as you can. Less fuel in the line then.

I wired my Dan-Marc on Deerslayer using a latching relay.  The fuel isn't on until I hit the pushbutton which I do after starting it.  Seems like I ought to do the same with the fuel pump on Jade ( for want of a better name, for now ).  And if I install a Dan-Marc as well, have both of them powered by the latching relay.

I'm ordering another Dan-Marc.

[hukmut]

On a 2003 with the original float needles, #1 on my list would be to replace them. Nearly everything else is speculation. BASICS.

[NCGhostrider]

The pump/shortened hose/pingle may stop the hydrolock.   This is in my opinion treating the symptom, but not the problem.  The carbs would not have allowed the gas to flow into the cylinders if they were functioning properly.  Needle and seat work is needed.   My .02...


Craig
NcGhostrider
99 I/S

[MarkT]

The pump/shortened hose/pingle may stop the hydrolock.   This is in my opinion treating the symptom, but not the problem.  The carbs would not have allowed the gas to flow into the cylinders if they were functioning properly.  Needle and seat work is needed.   My .02...


Craig
NcGhostrider
99 I/S

True but I believe the appropriate plan is, you can't assume the needles won't fail even with that work.  You still need a strategy or device to save the engine if / WHEN the needles fail.  There ARE SIX of them - more complexity equals reduced time to failure.  My needles have not failed.  But I have prevented hydrolock anyway with a Dan-marc.  I don't trust six carb needles, that none of them will fail.  I have worked on engines all my life, and have seen sunken floats and stuck needles many times.  It's NOT SUPPOSED to happen with a belly tank - but it has.  So there's a failure with the fuel pump, and another with the carb needles.  I'm going to have another safety in place on Jade - a Dan-Marc.  DO NOT want to have to recover from a hydrolock.  It's inexpensive insurance.

[bentwrench]

The facet pump supplied by R+M has a 1psi check valve on the outlet side of the pump.This prevents flow when the pump is off.I looked all over for a spare pump and could not find that exact part# til  I came across pegasus racing.They have the pump w/ the outlet ck valve.
It's been over 65k trouble free  miles w/ my R+M tank.Ck that part # on your new pump and compare it to this one.
https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productdetails.asp?RecID=7550

[NCGhostrider]

True but I believe the appropriate plan is, you can't assume the needles won't fail even with that work.  You still need a strategy or device to save the engine if / WHEN the needles fail.  There ARE SIX of them - more complexity equals reduced time to failure.  My needles have not failed.  But I have prevented hydrolock anyway with a Dan-marc.  I don't trust six carb needles, that none of them will fail.  I have worked on engines all my life, and have seen sunken floats and stuck needles many times.  It's NOT SUPPOSED to happen with a belly tank - but it has.  So there's a failure with the fuel pump, and another with the carb needles.  I'm going to have another safety in place on Jade - a Dan-Marc.  DO NOT want to have to recover from a hydrolock.  It's inexpensive insurance.

No argument from me on that point! 

Just would want to make sure the carbs are right, if the needles/seats are sticking, or floats not floating, they need to be repaired. 

Craig
NcGhostrider
99 I/S

[Skipper]

The facet pump supplied by R+M has a 1psi check valve on the outlet side of the pump.This prevents flow when the pump is off.I looked all over for a spare pump and could not find that exact part# til  I came across pegasus racing.They have the pump w/ the outlet ck valve.
It's been over 65k trouble free  miles w/ my R+M tank.Ck that part # on your new pump and compare it to this one.
https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productdetails.asp?RecID=7550

this is where r&m told me today to get the correct pump. friend came by and was able to get the # for me. wrong pump was installed. pump is on order

[Patrick]

I don't know about belly tanks, but, there is enough fuel in any line above the float valve to lock a cylinder. It only takes about an ounce.

I certainly hope not.  That suggests the Dan-Marc is useless to stop hydrolock (in a non-belly tank config).

Are there any instances of hydrolock with a Dan-Marc installed?

When pump went out it would not run and main tank was almost full so i think its hooked up properly. i have had it for 3 years now with no problems till pump died and had work done on carbs.
  

Is it possible, with dead pump, it stopped in an open position, so gravity pressure from the main tank could push through the belly tank, ther pump, and on up through the leaking fuel system?  If so that implies a different fuel pump design - say a positive displacement gear pump - might be needed rather than one that can flow fuel while not running.  Or install a Dan-Marc downstream of the pump.  That would also work.
 This concerns me personally, as I am about to install a belly tank in my Tourer.

There have also been others that say there is not enough fuel in the lines between petcock [ Pingle even] and carburetor to lock a cylinder. I know for a fact that there is !  I think I've probably had more fuel locks than anyone. But, I'm not concerned with folks disagreeing.
I have said it would only take an ounce or so for it to happen while one disagreed stating it would take 15-20cc, apparently not knowing how many cc's are in an ounce.

[Thunderdog]

"I have said it would only take an ounce or so for it to happen while one disagreed stating it would take 15-20cc, apparently not knowing how many cc's are in an ounce."

That's FUNNY!  BTW, It didn't take me two years to laugh.  I just now was researching hydro-lock and just ordered a belly tank for my "new" '98 Tourer
Lee

[Thunderdog]

Well, I bought a belly tank, had a local shop install as I was gone for a couple weeks on an adventure ride.  I got a ride to the shop, picked up the bike with "3 gal gas", rode it 38 miles home, no problem.  Then another 13 miles on an errand, filled it up came back home and everything seemed OK.  After parking for a couple weeks tried to crank it and it was hydrolocked.  Fortunately it didn't seem to damage hard parts but was locked.  Upon the advice of the shop, I put in 4th gear, rocked into reverse and pushed the fuel somewhere besides between the piston & cyl head.  The I fired it up and LOTS of fuel/oil came out the exhaust.  Killed every mosquito within a half mile.  I put a call in to Roger, w/R&M, both numbers last Friday noonish, but as of yet have not had a return call.  (4:00pm Tuesday 7/17/18).  The shop is competent but I can't help think they did something wrong????  The engine is definitely pressurized by the new fuel system.  Water is clean, oil is clean but smells like gas.  

ANY IDEAS OF WHAT'S WRONG?

Lee

[Leathel]

. . .also had low speed jets replaced . . . when i tried to start it was hydro locked. pulled plugs and gas was in 3 cylinders. . . What could be the problem?

I recommend that you replace the float needles. Every Valkyrie carb set I've seen needed them - and I'm talking gravity feed systems. With a pressurized fuel supply you definitely need them replaced.

Very important to check the float levels every time the carbs are apart, even after replacing the float valves as the floats do distort so even with new float valves it still could leak and hydroloc if the fuel supply is left flowing while the engine is off..... so if it is out of spec with the new valves it will also need new floats or longer float valves.

[ridingron]

  I have said it would only take an ounce or so for it to happen while one disagreed stating it would take 15-20cc, apparently not knowing how many cc's are in an ounce.   

That is funny!


1 oz. = about 30cc

[MarkT]

Just adding to this old thread - I have since proved and measured - this spring - that the R&M supplied fuel pump can and will leak fuel when it's off.  No matter the theory, the explanation there's a check valve with a 1# spring - a piece of sand or crud can get in there and block it open.  Measured it, leaks the entire 3 gallons to fill the belly tank in 19 hours.  That's a tablespoon (0.5oz) every 89 seconds.  If I pump up my belly tank contents - 2 hours later it takes 61 seconds to pump back up what leaked down. (It takes 9:35 to pump up the entire 3 gal. ) Significant leak.  Way more than needed to cause hydrolock.  So don't assume your belly tank will prevent hydrolock - you still have gravity pressure pushing gas through your system - install a Dan-Marc anyway.

[John Schmidt]

And next time you suspect a hydrolock, don't do what the shop suggested....pull all the plugs and turn the motor over. It will shoot gas out of the culprit cylinder. Just rocking it like was suggested won't necessarily clear it out sufficiently to prevent further damage.

[Thunderdog]

Hey guys, now have a "new" problem.  I took my bike back to the shop that installed the Belly Tank and they said they could find nothing out or order.  Lines were all hooked up properly so, according to Roger w/R&M who did return my call (unfortunately, after I'd taken the bike back to the shop and spent ANOTHER couple hundred $) there's only two ways fuel could get to the carbs with key off.  1.  vent and supply lines reversed (of course, it couldn't run very far with that setup could it??)  2.  A piece of trash keeping the check valve open.  The shop "checked it out" and changed the oil.  I now have way over $1000.00 in this belly tank installation!  I wish I'd left it alone!  So NOW,  I'm getting significantly more noise AND backfiring on deceleration especially down throu about 3000 rpm's, from the left side only.  Why would this be?  Could I have lost a cap or carb vacuum line come loose?  Blown a gasket somewhere? Could the timing have changed on the left side only (assuming the left side  had the seepage into the cylinders)?  What would I look for after removing the cover?  It has NOT hydro locked since I got the bike back, seems to run fine with plenty of power.  One more thing.....  You guys keep referring to this "Dan Marc".  When I went to the site I see many products.  A solenoid controlled shutoff or check valve sounds like a good idea but specifically, which are you talking about??
Thanks much!

[MarkT]

This is the one most folks intall.  I have too, on Deerslayer, Marty, and my lawn tractor.

http://www.dan-marc.com/79-afc11112.html

I intalled the 1/4" orifice one on Jade because it had starvation problems due to pulling a trailer.

http://www.dan-marc.com/79-afc1211412.html

[The emperor has no clothes]

This is the one most folks intall.  I have too, on Deerslayer, Marty, and my lawn tractor.

http://www.dan-marc.com/79-afc11112.html

I intalled the 1/4" orifice one on Jade which had starvation problems due to pulling a trailer.

http://www.dan-marc.com/79-afc1211412.html

I'm using the 1/4 inch one also. I'm not sure why there would be any advantage no to.  maybe it's a false sense of security, but it gives me a sense anyway.