Hydrolock questions

[Headbanger02]

Ok, so here I am, I have read and read and reread all the hydrolock stuff  that I've searched relentlessly about  till my freaking head hurts, I'm not mechanically stupid, but very close....It's seems that no matter what, there's is no one fix all for this...

I religiously turn my gas off and I know that it works when I forget to turn it on when I go for a ride...
I don't want to use the pingel valve for vain reasons...
I'm not sure if the dan-marc electric shutoff is enough...
I don't understand the belly tank deal nor do I want to put one on...
I do tap the starter once lightly for the dreaded clank noise to minimize damage...
I do worry when winter comes and it sits for a spell...

I'm sure there is other things that is not on the top of my head right now that I don't remember...

Is there a definite worry free fix for this.....

I appreciate any and all help in this matter....

Yours truly
Headbanger02 aka Steve  

[Ricky-D]

The "turn it off and ride" is not an effective test! All that test proves is there is not enough gas available for the engine to run. It, the petcock could still be dribbling a few drops every minute or so.

***

[gordonv]

I believe it's Ricky-D also says/feels there is enough fuel left in the carb float bowl to hydro lock an cylinder. So even fixing the petcock (pingle/shut off/electric pump) will no guaranty a 100% safe bike.

I would always turn off my petcock on Monday when I hit the highway, to see if it is working. Granted, it's not 100% for-sure, but it is something. Otherwise, it was always on, relying on the vacuum to shut it off.

The belly tank fix is the addition of an electric fuel pump. I bought a Shadow electric pump (cheap $) to add to my Valkyrie when I get another one.

The most important knowledge of hydro lock, is to NOT continue to try to crank the engine over if it doesn't spin/clunk that first time. I don't believe I have read anywhere yet, that there was damage on the first clunk, but after the owner tried to crank the engine over again.

This also was just posted.
http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,80136.0/prev_next,prev.html#new

[hukmut]

Needle valves. The little, itty-bitty springs have been asked to do a lot for many years, need to be replaced.
That, IMHO, is foremost in preventing hydrolock. Yes, you MAY have other issues, like a leaking petcock, but the needle valves are designed to regulate (stop) the flow of fuel. No soapbox here, just my limited experience and following the experience of others on this forum. Besides, they are a lot cheaper to replace than nearly anything else that is being considered.

[Chrisj CMA]

Ok, so here I am, I have read and read and reread all the hydrolock stuff  that I've searched relentlessly about  till my freaking head hurts, I'm not mechanically stupid, but very close....It's seems that no matter what, there's is no one fix all for this...

I religiously turn my gas off and I know that it works when I forget to turn it on when I go for a ride...
I don't want to use the pinkel valve for vain reasons...
I'm not sure if the dan-marc electric shutoff is enough...
I don't understand the belly tank deal nor do I want to put one on...
I do tap the starter once lightly for the dreaded clank noise to minimize damage...
I do worry when winter comes and it sits for a spell...

I'm sure there is other things that is not on the top of my head right now that I don't remember...

Is there a definite worry free fix for this.....

I appreciate any and all help in this matter....

Yours truly
Headbanger02 aka Steve 

So, you don't want to replace 50% of the problem.  There are several, many even that say that they have no problem with the OEM valve.  No one has trouble with it until it fails.  So, how long will yours last? Mine made it to around 80K miles.

The other half of the problem is a float and needle valve in one of the carburetors.

You usually have to have BOTH failures to have a lock.  Get a quality valve and your chances for hydrolock go way way down.

Or just hope you get lucky

[gordonv]

Needle valves. The little, itty-bitty springs have been asked to do a lot for many years, need to be replaced.
That, IMHO, is foremost in preventing hydrolock. Yes, you MAY have other issues, like a leaking petcock, but the needle valves are designed to regulate (stop) the flow of fuel. No soapbox here, just my limited experience and following the experience of others on this forum. Besides, they are a lot cheaper to replace than nearly anything else that is being considered.

After what BonS has found out and posted, yes, needle valves will be one of the 2 things I would do to my Valkyrie.

So, you don't want to replace 50% of the problem.  There are several, many even that say that they have no problem with the OEM valve.  No one has trouble with it until it fails.  So, how long will yours last? Mine made it to around 80K miles.

The other half of the problem is a float and needle valve in one of the carburetors.

You usually have to have BOTH failures to have a lock.  Get a quality valve and your chances for hydrolock go way way down.

Agreed. But then I'm lazy and like the idea of not needing to remember to turn on my fuel. Like my Shadow and GW, electric fuel pump. Start the bike, and drive. I really miss having a reserve to switch to, a known amount of fuel and a known range I can drive to get fuel. Gauges and idiot lights don't cut it.

[Ricky-D]

I believe it's Ricky-D also says/feels there is enough fuel left in the carb float bowl to hydro lock an cylinder. So even fixing the petcock (pingle/shut off/electric pump) will no guaranty a 100% safe bike.

Nope, not me. And your reference is also incorrect. The working amount of gasoline in the float bowl cannot migrate to the cylinder. It just stays in the float bowl. What a few propound is that there is enough gasoline in the gallery between the petcock and the float needle to enable a hydrolock condition. I think it's preposterous without some air getting in the lines to relieve the vacuum which will hold the gasoline captive in the lines. Another feeling is that it would only take a small amount of gasoline to allow a hydrolock situation. Also false. It would take in the neighborhood of 15cc to 20cc to enable a hydrolock or maybe even more since it is not known how much volume of gasoline is required to even get the carburetor to overflow. It's necessary for the carburetor to overflow to even begin to leak gasoline into the intake riser.

***

[Willow]

The closest you will come to worry free is the addition of the Dan-Marc fuel valve.  That can be done with either the OEM petcock or the pingle.  The Dan-Marc will shut off fuel flow and it's based on electricity rather than vacuum.

Keep in mind that the hydrolock occurs in a very, very small number of occurrences.  That, of course, is no consolation for you if you are one of the ones who encounter it.     

[Patrick]

The addition of a Dan-mark would probably be a good thing as it would reduce the amount of fuel in the supply lines to help reduce possibility of a lock.
Some may need some assistance in turning off the fuel. If one has been riding long enough this has or should have become SOP. But, just because the fuel has been turned off even with a Pingle doesn't mean there can't be a lock. I've had it happen.
6 locks that I can remember and no engine damage. Tap the button. I think I can have the cylinders cleared faster than it took to type this response.

[Headbanger02]

Very good responses, Thank you, keep em coming, will have some response questions later, even the ones that are of different opinions...

[westnek]

howdy riders =could someone explain what sound would a person hear if a cylinder is over full of fuel that would cause a hydrolock ,when you quickly hit the start button and release. it would be  nice to know what  I'd hear so as not to try starting bike again. Ive been tapping my start button and wouldn't know if I was in a troubled situation or not ==thanks very much  -west

[fudgie]

howdy riders =could someone explain what sound would a person hear if a cylinder is over full of fuel that would cause a hydrolock ,when you quickly hit the start button and release. it would be  nice to know what  I'd hear so as not to try starting bike again. Ive been tapping my start button and wouldn't know if I was in a troubled situation or not ==thanks very much  -west

A big clunk I've been told.

[Patrick]

howdy riders =could someone explain what sound would a person hear if a cylinder is over full of fuel that would cause a hydrolock ,when you quickly hit the start button and release. it would be  nice to know what  I'd hear so as not to try starting bike again. Ive been tapping my start button and wouldn't know if I was in a troubled situation or not ==thanks very much  -west

Not to worry, if it happens you'll know. You'll hear the dreaded CLANK.

[98valk]

I've posted this before, to add bowl vent nor working, shut off bike, carbs get even hotter soaking in the engine heat, gas expands, get vent into bowl vent then like below states happens. both of my bowl vent lines are installed correctly into the rear carb frame.
org posted this in '08

Re: Another hydrolock question

Posted By: 98valk <fitness7days@nospam.juno.com>
Date: 9/4/2008 at 12:30:31

In Response To: Another hydrolock question (G-Man (Gary in NY))

this is from Rider mag sept 1988 about the '88 goldwing Gl1500.
they had the hydro-lock problem and it turned out to be the bowl vent hose was sagging. "the low spotfills with gas and prevents air circulation, much like a sink trap. without a connection to atmosphere, the float bowls pressurize and raw fuel is forced up and out of the carbs through the needle jet. From there gravity takes the fuel down the intake runners. if that cylinder has an open intake valve, hydrolock." "The article states that honda issued a Product Update kit on a fix in feb of that yr which included a metal air-vent pipe and a vacuum fuel valve."
Looking at the service manual pics in the carb section it shows the vent hoses as straight sections just laying loosely on top of other hoses. My 98's vent hoses have a 90 degree end. the end is installed into holes in the rear carb support frame.
So this might be the reason and cause of the problem for some bikes.

http://www.valkyrieforum.com/forum/vrcc_tech.cgi?noframes;read=1274246

honda service bulletin fix

http://www.goldwingworld.com/pages/sb1.pdf

[Gavin_Sons]

I always turn my valve off 1 mile before I get home. This gets the fuel in the bowls almost used up so the gas can not heat up and expand and get through the float needles. Even though mine are brand new and working properly. A pingle is a great petcock, I wouldnt use the oem if I was paid to do so, but I kows several guys that do and have no problems. I think as log as you ride the bike regularly and keep fuel stabilizer in the gas during winter months and keep up with the oem petcock you will never see a problem.

[Willow]

I'll have to revisit my grade school science, but liquid (gasoline) doesn't expand with heat.  That's why hyrdrolics work.

That said, the air (gas, not gasoline) in the tank or the carb bowls will expand with heat putting pressure on the liquid (gasoline).

[MarkT]

I'll have to revisit my grade school science, but liquid (gasoline) doesn't expand with heat.  That's why hyrdrolics work.

That said, the air (gas, not gasoline) in the tank or the carb bowls will expand with heat putting pressure on the liquid (gasoline).

Hydraulics aren't using gasoline.

I have always understood that gasoline does expand with heat.  I have seen it many times - someone fills their tank all the way then parks in the sun immediately after - the gas boils over, the bike is sitting in a dangerous puddle of gas.  Especially with a black tank. (Done that myself).  It may have to do with "vapor pressure", like boiling at relatively low temps.

Now if it's a small bubble of air in the tank expanding all that much, I don't know.  However I have seen reports that you want to buy gas that's cool, not hot as it's more dense.

Guess we'll have to research this.  Don't have time right now.

[Chrisj CMA]

I'll have to revisit my grade school science, but liquid (gasoline) doesn't expand with heat.  That's why hyrdrolics work.

That said, the air (gas, not gasoline) in the tank or the carb bowls will expand with heat putting pressure on the liquid (gasoline).

Gasoline expands with heat, that's why the fuel industry defines a gallon of gas as a cubic measurement (I forgot the measurement) at 60 degrees F.  Carl, do think you are mis remembering that a liquid cannot be compressed, that's why hydraulics works.

[Gavin_Sons]

I have seen it many times with gas cans, fill it up too much and it will expand, blow the top off and spew out all over. Has happened to me a few times in yhe bed of my truck.

[BonS]

Gasoline expands by 1% of its volume for every 19 F degrees increase in temperature. There are vents at the top of the carburetor bowl to let any excess gas and/or gas vapors escape without causing pressure inside the carburetor. As CA pointed out it's essential that the vents not be plugged. Our vents are at the top of the carburetor rack and the vent tubes are huge and run down at a 45 degree angle to avoid any liquid pooling that happened with the Goldwing carburetors. So gasoline expansion cannot cause hydrolock if your carburetor vents are clear.

FWIW buying warm gasoline in the USA is a bad plan. Our pumps are not temperature compensated for this expansion. However, in Canada, their pumps are compensated and dispense more accurately.

[Patrick]

Yep, gasoline does expand as heated. But, then again so does almost everything else in this world.
Hydraulic oil also expands and contracts with the heat and cold. Maybe not much ,but, it does. Just because fluids won't compress doesn't mean they don't expand or contract.

[Willow]

Gasoline expands by 1% of its volume for every 19 F degrees increase in temperature. There are vents at the top of the carburetor bowl to let any excess gas and/or gas vapors escape without causing pressure inside the carburetor. As CA pointed out it's essential that the vents not be plugged. Our vents are at the top of the carburetor rack and the vent tubes are huge and run down at a 45 degree angle to avoid any liquid pooling that happened with the Goldwing carburetors. So gasoline expansion cannot cause hydrolock if your carburetor vents are clear.

FWIW buying warm gasoline in the USA is a bad plan. Our pumps are not temperature compensated for this expansion. However, in Canada, their pumps are compensated and dispense more accurately.

Okay.  I'll stand corrected on the expansion issue, but 1% per 19F degrees doesn't sound like the problem it was described to be.  At that rate for any amount of gasoline to expand to one and one tenth size what it was would take almost a two hundred degree temperature change.

I've seen a gas tank start to leak in the heat and I believed it was the air in the tank expanding with the heat.

[BonS]

Okay.  I'll stand corrected on the expansion issue, but 1% per 19F degrees doesn't sound like the problem it was described to be.  At that rate for any amount of gasoline to expand to one and one tenth size what it was would take almost a two hundred degree temperature change.

I've seen a gas tank start to leak in the heat and I believed it was the air in the tank expanding with the heat.

Air expands at roughly 3.5% per 20 degrees Fahrenheit. Quite a bit more than gasoline for sure.

[MarkT]

1% per 19° is not so trivial - work the numbers.  Gas stored in underground tanks I'm guessing could easily be 72° or less.  Fill my black interstate tank from nearly empty on a 90° day, all the way to the top (which is what I do) and park it in the sun immediately (not what I do).  The tank will easily be heated by the sun, conservatively, to 110° (particularly here in Colorado at over a mile high, the sun is INTENSE).  Actually much more, if you listen to the reports of how a closed car heats up quickly in the sun.  38° conveniently, (making for easy math) is exactly twice 19°.  So we have 2% expansion, times a full tank of 883oz.  Equals 17.7 oz expansion.  More than a pint of gas spilled out of the overflow.

Not saying this has anything to do with hydrolock, the OP's issue.  But it will make a dangerous and messy spill such that filling Deerslayer to the top right before lunch here at high altitude on a sunny day - which is 320/365 days - is a very bad idea, which I discovered years ago and never do it since.

[Paladin528]

Ant that is why the manual says to not fill it "All the way"  fill only to the bottom of the tube in the filler neck.
I fill mine all the way if I am riding as it will use the fuel faster than it expands.

[BF]

Except to test it every once in a while while going down the road to see if it still works, my petcock hasn't been in the off position since I've owned the bike. 

[Headbanger02]

I want to thank everybody for there input on this, I have bookmarked this for future reference and questions....

It looks like I need to at least do three things...

Tap the starter to avoid and/or lesson the damage

Pingel petcock

dan marc fuel shutoff

[Patrick]

I want to thank everybody for there input on this, I have bookmarked this for future reference and questions....

It looks like I need to at least do three things...

Tap the starter to avoid and/or lesson the damage

Pingel petcock

dan marc fuel shutoff

If you decide to go with an electric shut-off then you really don't need the Pingel. But, I'd install one anyway.

[Headbanger02]

I want to thank everybody for there input on this, I have bookmarked this for future reference and questions....

It looks like I need to at least do three things...

Tap the starter to avoid and/or lesson the damage

Pingel petcock

dan marc fuel shutoff

If you decide to go with an electric shut-off then you really don't need the Pingel. But, I'd install one anyway.

Cool, I would rather not install the pingel if it's possible....

[MarkT]

I installed a Dan-Marc (with latch relay, unrelated to hydrolock) leave the OEM petcock on always except if I need reserve, and call it done.  Doing the same on Jade (97 Tour) but also a belly tank (Dan-Marc in case the check valve on the fuel pump fails) as once it's installed, it's forgotten.  Unless the Dan-marc fails and I'll be frustrated.  So both Valks have a good fuel capacity and can't hydrolock (or very unlikely).  Or be hijacked or stolen and ridden very far.

[Momz]

howdy riders =could someone explain what sound would a person hear if a cylinder is over full of fuel that would cause a hydrolock ,when you quickly hit the start button and release. it would be  nice to know what  I'd hear so as not to try starting bike again. Ive been tapping my start button and wouldn't know if I was in a troubled situation or not ==thanks very much  -west

Yep

[Willow]

If you decide to go with an electric shut-off then you really don't need the Pingel. But, I'd install one anyway.

Whereas that is mostly true, if you stay with the OEM vacuum unit there is an exposure, maybe remote, that fuel could enter the 6 from down the vacuum tube.

[Lyonardo]

I'm just going to chime in with my own hydrolock horror story.
I'd never heard of that problem so thought my starter was going out.
By the time I finally figured it out, I had broken the starter idler gear, the final driven gear, and the rear cover of the engine case where those gears slot in.
By the time I bought all the parts and special tools I needed to fix it, and waited for them to get shipped, I would've come out ahead just putting it into the shop.
The plus side is I found some other parts that needed replacing while it was apart, and now I know this bike so well I don't really need the manual for most things.
For me, it was a combination of a leaky petcock and the little pointy devil in the carb float valve on cylinder 3.
TAKE THIS SERIOUSLY! If your starter won't turn, don't crank it.
Instead, put your bike in 2nd or 3rd gear, and push it forward a little. If you're hydrolocked you will see about a cup of gas get safely pushed out of your tailpipe.
After that, you're temporarily safe to ride. Get your petcock fixed, or your carbs cleaned and serviced, or both!
Otherwise, the engine will have to come out, and hopefully you'll be lucky and won't need a new motor.

[Headbanger02]

I'm just going to chime in with my own hydrolock horror story.
I'd never heard of that problem so thought my starter was going out.
By the time I finally figured it out, I had broken the starter idler gear, the final driven gear, and the rear cover of the engine case where those gears slot in.
By the time I bought all the parts and special tools I needed to fix it, and waited for them to get shipped, I would've come out ahead just putting it into the shop.
The plus side is I found some other parts that needed replacing while it was apart, and now I know this bike so well I don't really need the manual for most things.
For me, it was a combination of a leaky petcock and the little pointy devil in the carb float valve on cylinder 3.
TAKE THIS SERIOUSLY! If your starter won't turn, don't crank it.
Instead, put your bike in 2nd or 3rd gear, and push it forward a little. If you're hydrolocked you will see about a cup of gas get safely pushed out of your tailpipe.
After that, you're temporarily safe to ride. Get your petcock fixed, or your carbs cleaned and serviced, or both!
Otherwise, the engine will have to come out, and hopefully you'll be lucky and won't need a new motor.

This board/thread has taught me alot about this issue, I pretend that I'm going to get the crap shocked out of me if I touch that start button.....Thanks for your sharing....

[westnek]

I'm just going to chime in with my own hydrolock horror story.
I'd never heard of that problem so thought my starter was going out.
By the time I finally figured it out, I had broken the starter idler gear, the final driven gear, and the rear cover of the engine case where those gears slot in.
By the time I bought all the parts and special tools I needed to fix it, and waited for them to get shipped, I would've come out ahead just putting it into the shop.
The plus side is I found some other parts that needed replacing while it was apart, and now I know this bike so well I don't really need the manual for most things.
For me, it was a combination of a leaky petcock and the little pointy devil in the carb float valve on cylinder 3.
TAKE THIS SERIOUSLY! If your starter won't turn, don't crank it.



Instead, put your bike in 2nd or 3rd gear, and push it forward a little. If you're hydrolocked you will see about a cup of gas get safely pushed out of your tailpipe.
After that, you're temporarily safe to ride. Get your petcock fixed, or your carbs cleaned and serviced, or both!
Otherwise, the engine will have to come out, and hopefully you'll be lucky and won't need a new motor.

   hi  West here = so it will work  by pushing the bike in 2nd or 3rd very good ,, ive been removing spark plugs if bike sits for a long time and insert a insulated wire to see if its wet = just my own idea -but a push is  easier thanks  =take care

[Patrick]

If you decide to go with an electric shut-off then you really don't need the Pingel. But, I'd install one anyway.

Whereas that is mostly true, if you stay with the OEM vacuum unit there is an exposure, maybe remote, that fuel could enter the 6 from down the vacuum tube.

Thats tue. Thats why I would install a Pingle anyway.

[indybobm]

Instead, put your bike in 2nd or 3rd gear, and push it forward a little. If you're hydrolocked you will see about a cup of gas get safely pushed out of your tailpipe.

Actually I would push the bike backward to clear the cylinders, pushing it forward is doing the same as the starter trying to turn the motor. If there is gas in the cylinder you will end up with gas in the muffler. Maybe not a good idea.
It would be safer to pull the plugs and push it forward or use the starter to spin the motor (if all of the sparkplugs are out).

[Paladin528]

does anyone have a picture of the pingel installed on a Valk?

[Jess from VA]

Was just looking around and found this interesting 2010 multipoint upgrade thread with many pictures (multiple pages).

http://www.southbayriders.com/forums/threads/101750/

And a few pics on page 2. (sorry for size)









From another source, these are on a Valk. (reach under is do-able)


Sweep gauge for nitrous bottle.


Supposedly, if you have engine hanger covers, they can be left on and there is still room to reach in. (?) 

[Patrick]

So thats where that extra red vacuum cap goes.  No wonder I can't find that pesky vacuum leak !