Adjustable Clutch Lever = Softer Pull: resolved

[quexpress]

Hi!

This question is for those who have installed GL1800 adjustable clutch levers. Did this modification make it easier (less tension required) to pull on the clutch lever?

I ask because I'm suffering from arthritis in my left hand and wrist. After riding for half a day or more on my Valk, my hand hurts like a SOB. It feels like it has been hit multiple times with a baseball bat.

The Valk has been my ride since 2002 and I don't intend on changing. However I need to find a solution for my clutch lever (i.e.: make it easier to pull). Otherwise I will need to consider other rides with EZ pull levers, etc.  

Note: I'm aware that I could swap the clutch master cylinder for one with a smaller internal plunger ... but do not wish to go there.

Any insight would be appreciated.

Thanks!  

[big poppa pump]

I have the adjustable levers on my yellow Valk. Ever since I broke my left wrist from my accident last year, I have problems operating the clutch for extended periods of time or in slow moving traffic. The only thing that the adjustable levers did was bring the levers closer to the grips, otherwise it hardly made any difference in the pull. It still hurts after a few hours of riding and clutch operation.

I have now started wearing a sports wrist brace when riding which keeps my wrist straight and I've noticed absolutely no pain at all in the last couple of weeks. Still getting used to the brace instead of the glove but getting there. I know it's not the same as your problem, but all I am saying is using some kind of wrist support may help with the clutch operation.

[Jess from VA]

Same hydraulic tension, shorter throw.

But my wide nonadjustable Kury's are practically the same as the adjustable on 4 (or 2), 2d to shortest throw.  

However, the wider than stock lever (adjustable or not) feels noticeably easier to pull, even with the same resistance.  The pull weight is more spread out on the fingers.  They also give you more of a feel in feathering the clutch or brake.  

Same thing on S & W target triggers.  Even with no action or trigger work, a 1/4 trigger is easier to manage than the standard narrower trigger (when squeezing off slow aimed single action fire......  not when hammering double action; then the standard narrow smooth trigger is better)

Also, just like the old valks, I bet you could easily motor around going 1-3-5, rather than 1-2-3-4-5.

[quexpress]

Thanks guys!

I was hoping that the adjustable levers would be the solution ... but does not seem to be the case. I will look into the possibility of making the clutch lever a bit longer.

If the clutch was cable operated, this would not be an issue. I would simply purchase a stunt clutch lever.

http://www.righteousstuntmetal.com/international/levers.html

BTW I forgot to mention that I already have wide non-adjustable Kuryakin levers.

[hubcapsc]

Recently I took my lever off, removed the brass part, cleaned all up in there,
replaced the bootie, greased the pivot point (not a big glommy amount) and
the lever action on my 97 is easy and sweet - compared to what it was and
compared to my 2014... and I didn't even replace the brass part, even though
it was a little bit worn...

-Mike

[quexpress]

Recently I took my lever off, removed the brass part, cleaned all up in there,
replaced the bootie, greased the pivot point (not a big glommy amount) and
the lever action on my 97 is easy and sweet - compared to what it was and
compared to my 2014... and I didn't even replace the brass part, even though
it was a little bit worn...

-Mike

I also did that a short while ago. Art Ritis still beats me up. 

[knockdolian]

I bought a pair of these

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Honda-Shadow-VT-1100-Valkyrie-VTX-1800-ADJUSTABLE-CHROME-LEVERS-/331640339856?hash=item4d374dfd90

Wont reduce the pressure needed but you get a better grip unless you already have hands like Audrey the giant !!

[quexpress]

I bought a pair of these

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Honda-Shadow-VT-1100-Valkyrie-VTX-1800-ADJUSTABLE-CHROME-LEVERS-/331640339856?hash=item4d374dfd90

Wont reduce the pressure needed but you get a better grip unless you already have hands like Audrey the giant !!

I'm not sure that these would be any better than my wide non-adjustable Kuryakin levers.
Thanks!

[knockdolian]

I bought a pair of these

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Honda-Shadow-VT-1100-Valkyrie-VTX-1800-ADJUSTABLE-CHROME-LEVERS-/331640339856?hash=item4d374dfd90

Wont reduce the pressure needed but you get a better grip unless you already have hands like Audrey the giant !!

I'm not sure that these would be any better than my wide non-adjustable Kuryakin levers.
Thanks!

That may be true but for that price Id try. I put them on my bike and found them to be worth every penny. I haven't got pain though just girls hands !!!

[Bighead]

Don't think you will find one with an easier pull.

[slowshadow]

I bought a pair of these

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Honda-Shadow-VT-1100-Valkyrie-VTX-1800-ADJUSTABLE-CHROME-LEVERS-/331640339856?hash=item4d374dfd90

Wont reduce the pressure needed but you get a better grip unless you already have hands like Audrey the giant !!

I've thought about getting these because I would like adjustable levers. I would also really like wide levers. Are these wider than the stock lever and also adjustable?

[MP]

Not sure if the pull on my GL adj levers is less, but it SURE FEELS like less pressure.  It may well just be the wider blade makes it feel that way.  I like them a lot for that.  But , in your case, I do not know if they would help.

[Ricky-D]

Actually, I don't think wide levers are the answer for arthritic hands. The wide levers can cause you to

have to position your hand in such a way as to aggravate the condition when activating the clutch. Sure, wide

levers look cool but they're not you friend when you have hand joint problems. Try tipping the lever assembly down

some, or up a little to get some relief. Going wide may not be the answer.

***

[knockdolian]

I bought a pair of these

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Honda-Shadow-VT-1100-Valkyrie-VTX-1800-ADJUSTABLE-CHROME-LEVERS-/331640339856?hash=item4d374dfd90

Wont reduce the pressure needed but you get a better grip unless you already have hands like Audrey the giant !!

I've thought about getting these because I would like adjustable levers. I would also really like wide levers. Are these wider than the stock lever and also adjustable?

No, not wider but offer more control. I was very pleased with them

[quexpress]

Hi!

I did not want to do it ... but after each long ride, my arthritic hand keeps acting up.
I am now considering swapping the clutch master cylinder.
Before doing this, I would like to calculate the master cylinder/slave cylinder ratio.

Does anyone have a slave cylinder available to measure its outside diameter? It would be very appreciated!

Thanks!

Normand

[old2soon]

cursed ole ritis brothers moved in years ago. I have the Kury wide non adjustable levers and they do help. I also use the grip builder squeezer thingy. The squeezer thingy hurts BUT it increases my ability to hold clutch in while in slow traffic-think P G R missions. My hands are botherin me as I post but I KNOW a ride will straighten that right out. I'm doing more walking and weight lifting lately. I KNOW if I do not exercise he body WILL rebel and I have friends that JUST park on the couch. B T W-if it helps at all I turned 70 back in Feb of this year. The ritis AIN'T leavin so I have to find ways to deal with it. Good drugs-prescription-help a lot. RIDE SAFE.

[Wewaman]

 i think Grumpy has adjustable levers from a Goldwing on his Valk. Might see what difference those make for him.

[quexpress]

Hi!

After having procrastinated for more than a few years with my clutch lever pull problem (because of my arthritic left hand), I broke down and installed a VTX1800 clutch master cylinder.

Wow! What a difference!!! If I needed to, I could now pull the clutch lever with 1 finger.

I then performed a similar test as performed by Super Streetbike Magazine on YouTube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALzpMnfB0Bw

The results floored me:
Pull required with Valk master cylinder = 17 lbs +/-
Pull required with VTX1800 master cylinder = 8 lbs +/-
This is a 50% difference in pull pressure required. 

The piston OD on the Valk MC is 15.827 mm. The one on the VTX1800 is 12.657 mm. That's roughly a difference of 3 mm.
Note: The OD of the slave cylinder is 36 mm (thanks John!).

I knew that the slave cylinder on the VTX1800 was the same as the one on the Valk. However I was possible that the smaller master cylinder would not push the Valk clutch enough to release it. That is not the case. I works just fine. I have tested it in the neighborhood for at least 30 minutes (shifting up and down, start from stop, etc.).

Note: I had purchased adjustable levers but will hold off before installing these. I intend on doing a few day long rides with my non-adjustable levers. Thus, when I install the adjustable ones, I will know if it enhances comfort, etc. with the VTX1800 swap.

I'm a happy camper. I now know that my clutch hand will be able to handle it and will permit me to keep riding my Valk (for a while). 

Thanks for your input guys! 

Normand

[Ricky-D]

I think the clutch will eventually start dragging with that master cylinder.

***

[quexpress]

I think the clutch will eventually start dragging with that master cylinder.

***

Clutch grabbing .... semantics ... I had to look it up LOL ... English is not my first language.
If clutch dragging means the clutch is not releasing properly, I'm not too worried about it for 2 reasons:
1.
With the motor off, I can easily leave the Valk in gear and push it around when the clutch is depressed. This would not be possible if the clutch was not fully released (I'm not a Mr Hulk).
2.
People have been using adjustable clutch levers on their Valks for numerous years. When these are adjusted closer to the handlebar (lower numbers), the clutch is not released as much as with the OEM levers.
I have not heard of one case of clutch dragging because of adjustable levers. The result when using these is similar to using a smaller master cylinder. Less release of the clutch.
Thanks! 

[Dusty]

 Thanks for the update Normand.          I'll probably install one on mine.

Dusty

[quexpress]

Ok guys , The only difference between a Valk M/C and a 1800 VTX  M/C is there is and extra washer in the valk m/c...   So if you take the washer out of the valk m/c you will have the easier pull...
Now I know someone will say I'm full of it , but I've done it before... Still don't believe , just
look at the parts fish on any Honda site...

PS :  I did mine on a valk with a blower and double spring clutch and never had any trouble with it....

PSS:  think about it , when everyone was sending in their m/c to be chromed, do you really think they took time to ask if it was for a valk or vtx...

Hope this helps anyone needing a easier pull

The piston OD sizes are different in the 2 master cylinders (Valk is 15.827 mm, but the VTX1800 is 12.657 mm).

[quexpress]

Hi!

The clutch master cylinder OD specs that I refer to were taken from the Honda shop manuals (Valk and VTX1800).
However TJ's comment put a doubt in my mind and I just had to verify these measurements.
It was just a matter of using the piston from a VTX1800 clutch rebuild kit to compare it to the piston in my OEM Valk clutch master cylinder.
The result confirms the numbers shown in the shop manuals. There is a difference of 3mm in the MC bore ODs. This explains the easier clutch lever pull when using a VTX1800 clutch master cylinder.



Normand

[The emperor has no clothes]

So does using the smaller VTX one result in less braking force to the front wheel ?

[quexpress]

So does using the smaller VTX one result in less braking force to the front wheel ?

This swap is for the clutch master cylinder only. It has nothing to do with the brake master cylinder (on the right side).
Note: Since I have not tested this swap for a long period of time (less than one hour), I cannot recommend it to anyone. I only wanted to post my experience with this swap (less clutch lever pull required).
I'm very confident but will only be able to confirm this next spring I guess.

[Ricky-D]

With the smaller diameter piston there is 1/3 less fluid being moved compared to the stock piston

This means that the slave will move 1/3 less.  Whether there is enough movement to fully disengage

the clutch is conjecture. After wearing in, and use there is a definite possibility that the clutch

will (drag) not fully release.

***

[quexpress]

With the smaller diameter piston there is 1/3 less fluid being moved compared to the stock piston.
This means that the slave will move 1/3 less.

That's also what happens when using adjustable levers in the lowest position. I have not heard of any negative effects yet.

Whether there is enough movement to fully disengage the clutch is conjecture. After wearing in, and use there is a definite possibility that the clutch
will (drag) not fully release. ***

That might be a possibility ... but I doubt it very much.
On the other hand, I will only know for sure after having tested this for a good period of time. 

[The emperor has no clothes]

So does using the smaller VTX one result in less braking force to the front wheel ?

This swap is for the clutch master cylinder only. It has nothing to do with the brake master cylinder (on the right side).
Note: Since I have not tested this swap for a long period of time (less than one hour), I cannot recommend it to anyone. I only wanted to post my experience with this swap (less clutch lever pull required).
I'm very confident but will only be able to confirm this next spring I guess.

Duh, I guess I should pay more attention. When I read your post the other day, I knew you were talking about the clutch. When I read what you did this morning for some reason my brain was thinking brakes. 

[knockdolian]

What's the length of the Pistons. That will also make a diforence, not in pressure but clutch movement. You will know from feel if the clutch is likely to drag. As they are self adjusting if it don't drag now chances are it wont

[quexpress]

What's the length of the Pistons. That will also make a diffrence, not in pressure but clutch movement.

I'm aware of that and agree. I did not measure the piston lengths because I estimated that piston travel depended on the lever movement. If I later realize that the piston should travel more, I will then add the adjustable levers to compensate.

You will know from feel if the clutch is likely to drag. As they are self djusting if it don't drag now chances are it wont

We are on the same page. 

[ammpro]

If I may offer a radically different possible solution...pain relief. Hear me out, because I have tested this, on and off, for a little more than 5 years.
I, too, have some arthritis in my left hand.
Get a mason jar. Dump a package of Golden Raisins in it. Cover the raisins with (New Amsterdam) gin. Let set for a couple of days (otherwise it is rather harsh). Eat at least 9 raisins a day. I just take a heaping teaspoon full, sometimes two, every day.
It can take up to two months for you to get relief, if it works for you. If you are not opposed to a little gin  , it is certainly worth the effort. It works for me.
Best wishes.
Frank

[quexpress]

I just got back from a 3-day ride and am very happy with the results of this clutch master cylinder swap.
The clutch works flawlessly (easy shifts, very soft lever pull, no slipping, no dragging, etc.).
I cannot predict the future but I'm quite confident that that my clutch will continue operating as it should.

FYI: Clutch master cylinder identifications.

If you look underneath (or on the back) of your Valk OEM clutch master cylinder, you will see a stamped ID of 5/8 (5/8 inches = 15.875 mm).
The VTX1800 clutch master cylinder shows a stamped ID of 1/2 (1/2 inches = 12.7 mm).
If I had wanted a 14 mm clutch master cylinder, I would have looked for a GL1800 one. It is stamped as 14 (for 14 mm).

All 3 of the above use the same clutch slave cylinder. 

[bentwrench]

I think Que is really on to something there.I just hit 100k miles on my tourer(still on the o.e.clutch) and from day one it only took a little pressure on the clutch lever to disengage the clutch,the o.e. valk m/cyl. has morre capacity than it needs.Reducing the dia. of the m/cyl.piston should feel like a power assist and the smaller piston seems to have more than enough volume for the job.

[Ricky-D]

In all the years that I have been involved with Honda motorcycles I recognize Honda's penchant for individuality when it comes to similar looking parts.

And even though I will not go into a detailed investigation of the different parts lists and such, I say with absolute confidence that there is no way

the slave cylinders on the Valkyrie, the VTX1800, and the GL1800, are the same.

Prove me wrong!

***

[quexpress]

In all the years that I have been involved with Honda motorcycles I recognize Honda's penchant for individuality when it comes to similar looking parts.

And even though I will not go into a detailed investigation of the different parts lists and such, I say with absolute confidence that there is no way

the slave cylinders on the Valkyrie, the VTV1800, and the GL1800, are the same.

Prove me wrong!

***

I have nothing to prove ... but here goes:

Part number: 22863-MJ8-003

http://www.ronayers.com/oemparts/p/honda/22863-mj8-003/piston-slave-cylinder

Parts fiche shows this slave cylinder is used on all 3 of above mentioned bikes + many others ...

[big poppa pump]

In all the years that I have been involved with Honda motorcycles I recognize Honda's penchant for individuality when it comes to similar looking parts.

And even though I will not go into a detailed investigation of the different parts lists and such, I say with absolute confidence that there is no way

the slave cylinders on the Valkyrie, the VTV1800, and the GL1800, are the same.

Prove me wrong!

***

I have nothing to prove ... but here goes:

Part number: 22863-MJ8-003

http://www.ronayers.com/oemparts/p/honda/22863-mj8-003/piston-slave-cylinder

Parts fiche shows this slave cylinder is used on all 3 of above mentioned bikes + many others ...

Yep!!!

http://www.partzilla.com/parts/detail/honda/HP-22863-MJ8-003.html

On the same topic, went to the stealership yesterday and they had a '14 used Valkyrie on the floor. The clutch on the newer Valkyries are so much easier to pull than our old ones. I could easily pull the clutch with one finger. Wonder what size pistons they are using on the newer ones and if they are interchangeable with our Valks?

[Ricky-D]

Relying on independent parts houses for OEM parts information is ludicrous and laughable.

***

[baldo]

If there was a problem with dragging clutches, could you just fabricate a new push rod, just ever so much longer?

[Kye]

Given that my Valk is a 'forever' bike, I intend on making continuous improvements to her till I am an old, old man. And she's an old, old bike. If the VTX1800 M/C proves to function perfectly, then this will definitely be added to the mod list.

Watching with interest!

[quexpress]

Relying on independent parts houses for OEM parts information is ludicrous and laughable.

***

I don't understand your attitude and refuse to get in a pissing match.
Anyone who does a search with part number 22863-MJ8-003 will see that I'm not blowing hot air.
Have a good day.