More fun...new revelation...

[AdrianR]

Visted Pell Lake Wi. on a ride today....The Mobil station in town sells premium fuel with no ethanol...filled my baby up and WOW...what a friggin' rocket ship man!  Holy crap...runs SO, so smooth....and with the new synthetic oil....At idle you can barely feel it running...ETHANOL sucks butt!

GD I love that motor!

I know I've said this before...but you guyz whom have yet to try ethanol free fuel have no clue how good that damn bike can run...  It runs even better then ethnolated fuel with an additive to neutralize it...

Guess all my gas from now is coming from cheesetown...lol

[F6Dave]

Be careful what you say about ethanol here.  There have been some posts on these boards claiming that running our motors on corn likker is a good thing!

Forget about the fact that ethanol has a propensity to attract water and damage engines.  Who cares if it costs more to produce than gasoline yet contains 1/3 less energy per gallon?  And it's no big deal that producing the stuff uses so much land and water that it's raised global food prices significantly, not to mention the environmental impact.  Those are just inconvenient facts.

[hungryeye]

Down here in banjo land it costs at least .50 cent more per gallon for 100% gas. I tried it in both my cars and my Valk with no difference in MPG or performance. I gave up on it. There is a M /C brand that the riders will claim their bike gets faster the louder the exhaust gets. 

[Robert]

Down here in banjo land it costs at least .50 cent more per gallon for 100% gas. I tried it in both my cars and my Valk with no difference in MPG or performance. I gave up on it. There is a M /C brand that the riders will claim their bike gets faster the louder the exhaust gets. 

Pretty much my experience also but who knows maybe we just paid more for regular gas. 

[bscrive]

I have a real problem with using land to plant crops for fuel.  Especially when that fuel is crap, and the corn strips the land of nutients.  The land should be used for planting crops for food not fuel.   

[ledany]

 
The more I drive, the less they eat, I don't feel comfortable about that. I don't see any difference between SP E 95 and SP 95 but the fact is that it's more difficult to find SP 95. BTW, I don't see any difference between SP 95 and SP 98 (though the literature about it is so plethoric) so I usually use SP 95 Ethanol.

[Bighead]

I have seen a slight MPG (less than 5 mpg)improvement on pure gas but other than the price no difference.

[AdrianR]

I have seen a slight MPG (less than 5 mpg)improvement on pure gas but other than the price no difference.

I find this hard to believe...for me the difference is quite significant...even my vtwin Sears lawn tractor runs better..and I can get three lawn mowing sessions as opposed to two on a full tank of gas.

Try running it a few more times...AND THEN go back to etha-crap and see how you feel.

[mrtappan]

I find it defiant of the physics of this universe that premium gas makes a low compression water cooled engine do anything better.

[AdrianR]

I find it defiant of the physics of this universe that premium gas makes a low compression water cooled engine do anything better.

Ha..lol... has nothing to do with 'water cooled', 'low compression' engines dude...but EVERYTHING to do with etha-crap...

The only reason 'premium' gas was mentioned is that at many gas stations in Wi., the only gasoline you can buy WITHOUT 'etha-crap' is premium..

[F6Dave]

I find it defiant of the physics of this universe that premium gas makes a low compression water cooled engine do anything better.

Higher octane fuels have a slightly lower flash point to reduce detonation.  As a result these fuels also have a slightly lower energy content.

Modern water cooled engines have much improved fuel flow characteristics that also reduce detonation.  As a result they can run on lower octane fuel and make more power than older designs.

[mrtappan]

Correct, which is why having higher octane gas in low compression motors does nothing.  You're putting in gas the engine doesn't have enough heat/compression to burn.  Kind of pointless.......

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/regular-or-premium

[F6Dave]

Correct, which is why having higher octane gas in low compression motors does nothing.  You're putting in gas the engine doesn't have enough heat/compression to burn.  Kind of pointless.......

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/regular-or-premium

I agree completely.  Using a higher octane fuel than your engine needs is a waste of money.

[hungryeye]

Correct, which is why having higher octane gas in low compression motors does nothing.  You're putting in gas the engine doesn't have enough heat/compression to burn.  Kind of pointless.......

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/regular-or-premium

I agree completely.  Using a higher octane fuel than your engine needs is a waste of money.

and carbon build up on pistons....

[AdrianR]

Correct, which is why having higher octane gas in low compression motors does nothing.  You're putting in gas the engine doesn't have enough heat/compression to burn.  Kind of pointless.......

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/regular-or-premium

Yes indeed...a total waste of money...Lower compression engines are far more reliable and last way longer!

[dinosnake]

He's not talking about octane, a reference number given to a fuel, as compared to a mixture of iosoxtane and heptane, that specifies a given fuel's resistance to detonatiion (pre-ignition).  He is taking about ethanol, which is a natural oxygenate versus pure gasoline - ethanol contains more oxygen, which reduces emissions but, when added to gasoline, also reduces power because the added oxygen offsets the equivalent hydrocarbon atoms, by weight.  In other words, if you place more oxygen into the liquid fuel, less actual fuel atoms are left.  So although ethanol-added fuel takes up the same space, it contains less power (k-cals), by weight.  

There you go, basic physics

http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm

Ethanol has 33% less power by weight, to be specfic.

[AdrianR]

He's not talking about octane, a reference number given to a fuel, as compared to a mixture of iosoxtane and heptane, that specifies a given fuel's resistance to detonatiion (pre-ignition).  He is taking about ethanol, which is a natural oxygenate versus pure gasoline - ethanol contains more oxygen, which reduces emissions but, when added to gasoline, also reduces power because the added oxygen offsets the equivalent hydrocarbon atoms, by weight.  In other words, if you place more oxygen into the liquid fuel, less actual fuel atoms are left.  So although ethanol-added fuel takes up the same space, it contains less power (k-cals), by weight. 

There you go, basic physics

http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm

Ethanol has 33% less power by weight, to be specfic.

Bravo!  That sounded great...

[mrtappan]

Back to the basic point, I have serious doubts as to any noticable performance gains versus the E10 fuel we have here and the regular 100% gasoline.  Especially since the Valkyrie isn't setup as a Flex fuel style vehicle.  It's doesn't do anything other than slightly richen or lean the bike using the O2 sensors.

But whatevs, if I run into another dyno near here for a reasonable price per pull I'll throw some numbers down.  I'd put money on no more than a 1-2% difference if any on the Valkyrie.  So.... like 2 to 3 hp at best......

[dinosnake]

I was thinking the same thing.  The only item I believe is a reasonable explanation is that the premium fuel is of generally better quality, regardlessof the E10 component.  Add the +3% boost from dropping the ethanol, to the better fuel quality, and there was a noticeable difference.

Not all fuels, regardless of equal oxtane ratings, give equal results in all vehicles.  I remember having gasoline preferences, by company, when I had certain cars;  I think the valid test would be to compare premium-grade E10 to premium grade non-E10.  It is possible, of course, that the 3% power difference was indeed noticed easily.

[mrtappan]

I think, it's far more likely a "perceived" increase than a real increase.  All the years I've owned bikes, the former is far more comman than the latter. 

[Jess from VA]

I perceive a better, stronger running Valk with non-ethanol gas, in addition to getting better gas mileage.

This perception occurred running the freeway back home, after I had forgotten about getting non-ethanol an hour earlier (the first time I had run it).  I don't think it was wishful thinking. 

[dinosnake]

I perceive a better, stronger running Valk with non-ethanol gas, in addition to getting better gas mileage.

This perception occurred running the freeway back home, after I had forgotten about getting non-ethanol an hour earlier (the first time I had run it).  I don't think it was wishful thinking. 

Wish I had a chance to try; all fuel available to me is E10.

[DK]

Does anyone seriously believe that there exists three separate and distinct supply streams of grades of gasoline from the refinery to the pump?

The difference is in the "add pacs".

I do acknowledge that there should be a separate supply stream for ethanol / non-ethanol from whatever point the blending occurs, but as far as the various octaves are concerned, it all comes from the same tank.

Dan

[mrtappan]

You can get both types here, ethanol and nonethanol in both 87 and 91 octane.  I'll try a test with 87 octane but I'm not even wasting the money on a test with 91.  There's literally no point in my opinion to running higher grade gas.  I'll save that waste of money for the next time I can dyno the bike.  I'll try both, on the same dyno on the same day and see. 

[Jess from VA]

I was talking to a tanker driver at my closest non-ethanol station; fifty miles from home (but out in the country where I always ride).  I can only get 87 regular non-ethonal.  It isn't huge, but the bike runs better (stronger) on it.  

He said that regular and premium are two separate grades of gas, and that mid-grade was a blend of the two.  Interestingly, he said mid-grade was something like a 65/35 blend (I don't remember which and which), not 50/50.  He also explained that blending and additives varied quite a bit based on regions and seasons (temps).

Non-ethanol requires a separate/additional tank and this is one reason most stations don't carry it.

I will now fill with non-ethanol in winter, when I still ride, but much less often and less distance.  In the past, I did fill with premium ethanol in winter, because I have read it is cleaner, better quality gas than regular ethanol, and has less tendency to attract moisture/water than regular.  I treated my winter ethanol gas, regardless of grade, with Marine Stabil, Startron enzyme and Seafoam. 

My two '99 Interstates have 12 untouched carbs (88K and 57K).  Past experience shows that I cannot be trusted working on any carbs.

[AdrianR]

Perception you say?  BOLLOCKS!!   There are few things that piss me off more then someone telling me something is 'all in my head'...  It took me seven GD years to figure out WHY my bike ran stronger and got better mileage running ethanol free fuel, or more specifically; ethanolated fuel treated with additives..i.e. Stabil fuel stabilizer, Lucas Oil 'Ethanol Fuel Conditioner', Startron, Amsoil, etc., etc., etc....

There IS a real difference...is it immense, no...but it is significant enough in my book to utilize it's practice...  The science as illustrated backs up the claims, and the consensus corroborates it's testimony...

What else is there eh??

I seem to remember a time...back when I was younger, when you DIDN'T worry about gas going bad...in fact as long as it was stored properly it would last for several years...not any more!

[mrtappan]

I'll find out the weekend of the 17th.  I'm heading over to a rally about 120 miles from my house.  So I'll fill with nonethanol here and "up to 10%" ethanol there.  I'll believe it when I see it.  I'll take the same route there and back so it will be as controlled as I can do.  I'll even really really try to pay attention and see if I notice any difference.  So, I'll get back to the gas debate in two weeks.

[Jess from VA]

One more thing.  Which seems obvious, but... to get a decent butt dyno test, you really need to run your tank as low as you can before filling with non ethanol (doh).

I mean, adding to a half or third tank of ethanol does not really give you a decent test.  

For the last month and a half, I have been sort of planning my riding around topping up at this one station.  So I should be pure by now.  Still, it's 50 miles home on a straight line.

To me, where the difference really shows best, is out on the freeway, doing roll-ons from 60 to... whatever you can get away with.  Or hit the ton on the on ramp.  

I've never much cared about gas mileage and rarely do the math, but avg right at 220 to reserve (interstates) in nearly all conditions with ethanol (and have very good tunes, plugs, valves, synchs, all new orings and total tight desmogs).  There is some improvement with non-ethanol, but I don't really care about mileage, as much as performance.

Finally, I have six carbs and not a fuelie, and it may be that the butt dyno thing shows up more with carbs.  Pure gas should make a difference with everything, but I can only speak to carbs. 
 

[mrtappan]

Pure gasoline probably does yield "the best results."  My thing was "up to 10% ethanol" gas yields a insignificant decrease.

I will vouch that the new ethanol laced gas does not like to sit in carbs for as long as the old gas did.  I clean lots of green tinted carbs on bikes, generators, etc now a days compared to the old varnish caked carbs of old.  I have a 2008 Yamaha Warrior that mostly just sits with the new style gas in it and it has no problems.  I didn't start it for about six months once and it fired right up and drove fine. 

I might have to do a little "round about planning" to get a mostly empty tank on the way to the rally but I'll figure something out.  One way or the other, by the end of that weekend I'll be able to say "Yup, made a difference" or "Nope, all you."

[specialdose]

 
  I am anal about checking gas mileage on my Gurl and my truck. Just a thing. When she found me money was not as tight as now. Ran no-corn 99% of the time. It is readily available here in metro Atlanta and Alabama, averaging a buck 25 more, where I rode to take care of mother. I put 23k on her 99% corn-free. Past 10k ethanol regular. I see no difference in butt dyno or gas mileage. It has to be very cold here for me to use the choke ( I know it is not a choke) Only thing that changes my mileage is my right hand.Have gotten as little as 30 doing some sustained 90 mph slab cruising and 41 riding back roads and soaking up the scenery. Not a problem sitting in the garage for long, year round riding here. Just my 0.02.

[Jess from VA]

My wife's carbed Yami 1100 Vstar did not get ridden at all in the winter.  Despite my efforts to treat up the ethanol, it twice had to go to the dealer for a tear off and boil out.  This was not cheap.  And the Dealer told me is was very common with their carbed bikes.  (come Springtime it was get in line brother)

Pretty sure the Warrior is a fuelie, just like my Mean Streak (I never had any issue with it either).

I go to great lengths to not gum up the carbs on my lawnmower, big chipper vac, blowers, generator, power washer, trimmer, and have not always been successful, and some died early deaths.  This, and bike troubles, has lead me to hate all corn in gas.    

[hungryeye]

My wife's carbed Yami 1100 Vstar did not get ridden at all in the winter.  Despite my efforts to treat up the ethanol, it twice had to go to the dealer for a tear off and boil out.  This was not cheap.  And the Dealer told me is was very common with their carbed bikes.  (come Springtime it was get in line brother)

Pretty sure the Warrior is a fuelie, just like my Mean Streak (I never had any issue with it either).

I go to great lengths to not gum up the carbs on my lawnmower, big chipper vac, blowers, generator, power washer, trimmer, and have not always been successful, and some died early deaths.  This, and bike troubles, has lead me to hate all corn in gas.    

I been dealing with clogged up carbs since 1968, there was no corn in gas back then.

[mrtappan]

I definitely saw an increase at my shop once ethanol became pretty standard in gas.  True gas varishes up brown and gummy kind of like caramelized brown sugar.  The ethanol carbs always green out especially on the brass.  

New gas in a four carb setup on a 599 Honda



Old gas in an old generator carb

[ledany]

The funny thing for me is that this kind of debate occurs in France too ... but all we 've got is E95/95/98 octane  

Some say 98 is the least they can do for their beloved bike. They wouldn't imagine how 87 octane looks like  (and I don't either !  ).

[AdrianR]

I might have to do a little "round about planning" to get a mostly empty tank on the way to the rally but I'll figure something out.  One way or the other, by the end of that weekend I'll be able to say "Yup, made a difference" or "Nope, all you."

I just hope you are truly objective, remember how the truth sets one free!

[mrtappan]

I'll do the best I can to not fudge results on a test I've read the outcome of a dozen times before.  I'm pretty sure this will be identical result #13 but we'll see.

This isn't the first forum I've seen this argument on and it won't be the first time I see the results either.

[AdrianR]

I'll do the best I can to not fudge results on a test I've read the outcome of a dozen times before.  I'm pretty sure this will be identical result #13 but we'll see.

This isn't the first forum I've seen this argument on and it won't be the first time I see the results either.

Dude, this isn't an argument...it's a fact...One of which has been duly illustrated through a multitude of avenues...Ethanol represents a compromise in gasoline quality in an effort to reduce emissions and to satisfy a large farming lobby...  Your 'test', regardless of it's outcome, will not change the facts, nor will it change my opinion and experience, of which is based in fact.

[mrtappan]

The point of the test is to see of there's a noticeable difference.  I've never seen any results that showed otherwise on low compression "everyday" engines like the Valkyrie has.  So we'll see.  I doubted that there would be any noticeable difference between ethanol gas and nonethanol gas.  I'm guessing barely any, if any, in mileage and no noticeable difference in performance.  You claim that it's such a noticeable difference, I want to see for myself.  

If I remember right you're also the same guy that thought changing his oil made a HUGE difference in engine performance to the point where it was like a whole different bike..... so yeah.  I think I'll do a test anyways and not believe your claims. 

[AdrianR]

The point of the test is to see of there's a noticeable difference.  I've never seen any results that showed otherwise on low compression "everyday" engines like the Valkyrie has.  So we'll see.  I doubted that there would be any noticeable difference between ethanol gas and nonethanol gas.  I'm guessing barely any, if any, in mileage and no noticeable difference in performance.  You claim that it's such a noticeable difference, I want to see for myself.  

If I remember right you're also the same guy that thought changing his oil made a HUGE difference in engine performance to the point where it was like a whole different bike..... so yeah.  I think I'll do a test anyways and not believe your claims.  

Remember, some of this is subjective dude...meaning my idea of 'noticeable difference'  may only mean 'negligible difference' in your universe.  The fact remains that there is a difference in run quality and fuel economy..which once again, has been proven through a consensus universally accepted.  And yes, oil 'does' make a difference as well...I mean on the most fundamental level, why would large corporations worth BILLIONS of dollars invest in products to improve engine performance if it didn't matter? I don't even want to get started..

Suddenly YOUR the old guy who appears to be getting tested though the advent of change.. lol

btw..on a different note...you said you had a Yamaha Warrior..I like that bike...what do you think of it?