Fuel, is there really a difference

[dconstruct55]

Talking to a couple of guys over a beer and the topic of fuel came up. Both of these guys swore by Chevron Techron premium. Have heard it a few times since. Probably similar to asking about preferred oil, but has anyone got a semi-scientific, reasonably practical opinion on what fuel may be best? I have been using premium grade fuel in my bikes from QT without any adverse consequences. I have a '99 Tourer, '99 Standard and  a Kawasaki V2K.

[0leman]

I have been using regular, ethanol, gas since I got my Valk in 2008.  I did try some higher test gas for a bit, no change.

 Don't usually us Chevron gas as it's the most expensive.   Though there are a few places that I have to fill up at their stations cause they are the only ones around.  Don't see any performances/gas mpg changes when I do.

Just my experience.

[Bone]

My Valk's owner handbook is in the garage I believe it tells us to use 87 octane.
I've used that for over 100k miles.

[dconstruct55]

Thank you gents,
Pretty much what I expected. I will continue to use QT and avoid the higher prices........

[indybobm]

Many times I have seen no-name gas trucks at Shell, Marathon, Chevron, etc. filling the pumps. It has been a long time since Sunoco gas was purple/blue, Gulf was Orange, Shell was red. I think differences in gas now-a-days is just a bunch of hype. Now you have to worry about the gas station owners diluting with water. Believe it or not, I have had good luck getting gas at Walmart. A couple of times i have gotten gas at another station and it ran crappy until I got rid of it.
One thing to remember, if it is raining, do not get gas at a station that is having its tanks filled. Of course, you cannot know which station got their tanks filled the day before when it was raining.

[WintrSol]

Higher octane gas is for engines that tend to ignite the fuel before the spark occurs (ping), because the octane rating is a test for resistance to lighting. Pinging is usually caused by high compression, hot spots from carbon build up, or design of the chamber. Normally, our engines have none of those, so run just fine on regular 87. If you are pulling a hill on a hot summer day and hear pinging, it's time to go up a grade, until the weather cools. I went up a grade when pulling a ~700lb trailer in the hills of southwest Missouri, as my bike also had a 6 degree advance wheel, and tended to run hotter than normal. I've since put the stock wheel back in, and have no need of higher octane.

My VS800 Suzuki actually ran worse on premium fuel, because it is so much harder to light, and more of it went into the exhaust to burn.

The Techron additive is good for cleaning out fuel tanks, pumps, and injectors, and I use it in my Pontiacs from time to time, mostly to keep the fuel pump screen from clogging.

[Steve K (IA)]

Have used 87 octane ethanol 99% of the time in both Valks.  They run smooth and strong.  A few times used straight regular and noticed no difference.

SeaFoam halfway through summer and during winter storage.

Carbs haven't been touched. (knock on wood)   

[Lyonardo]

Talking to a couple of guys over a beer and the topic of fuel came up. Both of these guys swore by Chevron Techron premium. Have heard it a few times since. Probably similar to asking about preferred oil, but has anyone got a semi-scientific, reasonably practical opinion on what fuel may be best? I have been using premium grade fuel in my bikes from QT without any adverse consequences. I have a '99 Tourer, '99 Standard and  a Kawasaki V2K.

Your friends are right about that brand, but the benefit you get from Chevron gas has nothing to do with the octane level. It's the "techron" part, which is just an engine cleaner that Chevron adds to ALL of their gas. You can actually buy the cleaner separately, and it seems to be one of the highest rated carb/injector cleaners out there.

OK, now here's the "semi-scientific" part: high octane gas burns at a higher temp, so the engine has to be designed to produce a much hotter spark, and the timing has to be a lot more precise so that the spark happens when the fuel/oxygen mix is perfect. Adding regular gas to a "high performance" engine makes the combustion happen at the wrong time, which throws the timing off. That creates engine "knock" and can damage the engine in the long run.

Most "normal" engines actually need the lowest octane gas to run at their best. If the spark is not hot enough to burn premium, you'll need to burn a little extra gas to get the same combustion.

[gordonv]

+1

It is clarified very nice in 2 of the above posts, better than I could have.

The Techron in the fuel should keep your carbs clean. I buy it when I can, but am not afraid to buy from other places.

Techron as a fuel additive cleaner for a problem, is put in at a much higher concentration. There is no reason to pay the extra for it and add it to your regular fuel, just buy Chevron when you can.

If you know/learn what Octane is, then like mentioned, there is no reason to pay the higher cost of higher rated gasoline than the lowest grade of regular (sea level and high mountains have different base rated regular, 87 and 86). Have pining? Then purchase the next higher octane rated fuel.

[dconstruct55]

Lyonardo,
Great stuff, thank you for taking the time to write out all of that. I will make an effort to buy Chevron from time to time, but I will now dabble in the lower octane rated fuel and figure out what works best in my machines. Thank you all for your insights, ride safe,
Dcon

[WintrSol]

Just a note on Techron: GM recommends it be used occasionally in all their vehicles with in-tank fuel pumps, because the heat of the pump can cause a build up on the intake screens, causing the pump to starve and overheat. Apparently, they replaced a few under warranty. Techron will remove the built up gunk, and has the side benefit of improving fuel injectors.

[98valk]

there has been testing over the yrs indicating some suppliers are more accurate on the octane rating than others. the local weights and measures could provide this info.

However the best thing to do is use gas that is a Top Tier gasoline. http://www.toptiergas.com/

http://www.gasbuddy.com/  will list Top Tier gas stations in one's area.
this will keep the back of the intake valves clean of deposits which greatly affects MPG and Power. Also carbon buildup of piston tops will be kept down.
Using a higher octane than needed will cause a buildup of carbon on the piston top which if it gets too close to the cylinder wall will increase wear and possibly gum up the piston rings.

http://www.gasbuddy.com/  will list Top Tier gas stations in one's area.

[Paladin528]

One thing to remember is that ALL fuel is essentially the same.  None are "Better" than others.  The base fuel is identical.

What is different is what each company ADDS to the fuel.  Octane is a fuel additive designed to retard fuel burn.  This is desirable in engines that cause Pre-ignition or Detonation. (Not the Valk).

Other things added to the fuel are mainly anti-corrosion, and cleaning additives.

The big misconception is that "Premium" fuel is somehow cleaner and made better which is not the case at all.  Premium simply means that more crap has been added to the fuel to do stuff that 95%of users will never need.

[O-B-1]

Where I live it all comes in on the same barge, goes into the same big tank farm, then goes out to all the gas stations in various distributor trucks. So... for my purposes, unless I am on a trip out of town, it is all the same gasoline, it all has the miracle "engine cleaning additive' (be it Techron or V-Power).

I do know my 1999 says right on the OEM tank stickers to use at least 92 octane. My buddy rides his 97 in the heat here and in Arizona and greater southwest using 87 octane.

So I guess it is all academic from my point of view... 

[Tfrank59]

so here's another wrinkle, based on what I'm reading above, what about 92 octane (when you don't need it) just to get the non-ethanol gas?  reason being, the only gas station in my city that has ethanol free gas has it with their "premium grade", which is the 92 octane, which is another buck a gallon more.  I don't really mind the extra buck to fill up with the ethanol free on occasion, but if higher octane is actually not good for Valks, maybe I should stop with it?

[Gideon]

so here's another wrinkle, based on what I'm reading above, what about 92 octane (when you don't need it) just to get the non-ethanol gas?  reason being, the only gas station in my city that has ethanol free gas has it with their "premium grade", which is the 92 octane, which is another buck a gallon more.  I don't really mind the extra buck to fill up with the ethanol free on occasion, but if higher octane is actually not good for Valks, maybe I should stop with it?

I only use the premium ethanol free (Shell) during the winter months. I also add "Sta-bil" just in case it will sit for a few weeks. 

[Lyonardo]

so here's another wrinkle, based on what I'm reading above, what about 92 octane (when you don't need it) just to get the non-ethanol gas?  reason being, the only gas station in my city that has ethanol free gas has it with their "premium grade", which is the 92 octane, which is another buck a gallon more.  I don't really mind the extra buck to fill up with the ethanol free on occasion, but if higher octane is actually not good for Valks, maybe I should stop with it?

Here's what I know:
In order to burn high-octane gas, your plugs need to create a spark powerful enough to burn the fuel completely without leaving a residue to foul your engine. BUT they also need to stay cool enough so that they don't pre-ignite the gas as soon as your air-fuel mix starts to get compressed in the cylinder. That's how diesel engines work, they have glow plugs that get white hot, and burn the fuel with a constant heat instead of igniting it with a spark.

Here's what I don't know:
Even though the GL1500 engine isn't technically a "high performance" engine that controls the compression/timing/spark/heat precisely, is the spark high enough to burn the slow burning, high-octane fuel without fouling your engine?
Maybe the detergents in the expensive gas compensates for the extra fouling? I bet someone could piece together that answer from multiple sources.

[Paladin528]

Not all Premium gas is ethanol free.  If you are buying from a station that has a single hose from the pump then you are getting blended fuel and it WILL have ethanol.  The concentration should be less than 10%.

[Paladin528]

With a compression ratio of 9.8:1 the Flat 6 is hardly a "High Performance" engine.  It is a well built engine with tight tolerances and not even very efficient.  BUt it produces a fair chunk of Torque.
The requirement as per the manual is 87 PUMP Octane fuel which equates to a RESEARCH Octane Number of 91.  87 is the number on the PUMP  this is what you "Should" use.
Running any higher octane Could cause a carbon buildup on the piston due to incomplete combustion.
High octane fuel burns slower than regular.  This is what Octane does is slow the burning process and that is essentially all it does.
It will not keep your engine any cleaner except if the refiner has added cleaning additives to the fuel (Techron and the like)
You are actually better off to run regular gas (87) and every now and again run some techron through a tank.
Letting ANY fuel sit in your tank will lead to issues.  While any moisture will cause separation of the ethanol from the gas in oxegynated fuels, moisture will not blend with non-ethanol gas at all and will settle to the bottom of the tank and cause corrosion.  This is why Gas line antifreeze is made from alcohol.  It combines with the water to allow it to burn in the cylinders.

[Tfrank59]

Not all Premium gas is ethanol free.  If you are buying from a station that has a single hose from the pump then you are getting blended fuel and it WILL have ethanol.  The concentration should be less than 10%.

That station has individual hoses for each grade, and it specifically says only the 92 octane is the ethanol free gas. 

[Jess from VA]

The 4* Air Lake trigger in one of my interstates caused me to knock on 87 (hauling, not just putting along), so I ran premium all the time.  It ran fine on it, caused no issue, and my NGKs lasted forever, like always.

I can only get 87 corn-pollution-free gas, and that's 50 miles from home.

In Winter, I run premium ethanol in both bikes (when I can't get to non-ethanol) because I have read that it has less of a tendency to attract/create water in the tank during longer periods of downtime between rides than 87.  I still treat it with Startron, marine Stabil and Seafoam.

Our bikes may only need 87, but 89 or 92 is fine, and I can tell no difference between them.  Now when I run non-ethonal 87, I can definitely feel a seat of the pants increase in power and get better mileage (not huge, but noticeable).  

[Robert]

It only matters the brand because of the additive package added later, but the same fuel is sold at branded and unbranded stations. So essentially it almost does not matter where you buy your fuel. But from experience the better the station generally the better the pumps and tanks are serviced and kept. They don't buy fuel that is the bottom of the barrel stuff and therefore contaminants are not put in your tank.

Article and quote that explains it better below.

http://blogs.platts.com/2010/08/23/unbranded_vs_br/

It is true in that gasoline is a fungible commodity,” said Day whose company owns and operates almost 1,000 branded stations in the US. “But there are certain detergent packages, added at the end, that make it brand specific. But it doesn’t necessarily mean that the gasoline that is for sale at a branded station was made by that refinery.”

What partially sets apart branded versus unbranded gasoline is the detergent or additive package that is injected into the gasoline before it heads to the branded station, claiming to aid in automobile performance. "End quote"

When I found this out I stopped looking so much at the gas and started looking at the stations and thinking about the additive packages of the gas. I look for a branded gas and a clean station. Some stations do not put additives in their gas and therefore can offer it cheaper. Some stations used to keep water in the bottom of the tanks so that they could siphon all the gas from bottom of the tank at the station, since there is always gas that the pumps cannot get to.

As far as octane any grade of gas can be used on modern cars with knock sensors albeit with less mileage and less performance from those that require premium fuel. If you vehicle knocks try premium if not then check the mileage and see if you get more mpg with premium or more seat of the pants pickup. It will not effect your engine in any other way that is meaningful. As a personal note I use premium in all my stuff including lawn mowers just a personal preference and the idea that the premium sometimes does have more cleaner in it.

[Paladin528]

My thinking is somewhat the opposite.  I run regular in everything (Except my old Saab which needs Premium due to high compression adn a turbo).  when I store my Lawnmower I run my last tank of the season with seafoam  before refilling and storing it.  The cars dont get anything special because they are doing 100Km/day anyway.  The bike get regular gas (87) and every once in a while I will run a bottle of eseafoam through it (two tanks, half bottle per).  In the winter it get Sta-bil in the tank and run through the carbs and it sleeps.  Fires up first try in the spring and I run the tank dry and refill with regular again and keep going.

on my old VT1100 I ran premium because of a knock.  When I tore the top end down to fix a stuck tappet I found the piston caps thick with Carbon.  After pulling the pistons and cleaning them adn replacing the rings it ran far better anad no knock.  It ran on regular from that point on with no issues and as far as I know is still going with over 100,000 on it.  The carbs on that bike were spotless.

[nogrey]

there has been testing over the yrs indicating some suppliers are more accurate on the octane rating than others. the local weights and measures could provide this info.

However the best thing to do is use gas that is a Top Tier gasoline. http://www.toptiergas.com/

http://www.gasbuddy.com/  will list Top Tier gas stations in one's area.
this will keep the back of the intake valves clean of deposits which greatly affects MPG and Power. Also carbon buildup of piston tops will be kept down.
Using a higher octane than needed will cause a buildup of carbon on the piston top which if it gets too close to the cylinder wall will increase wear and possibly gum up the piston rings.

http://www.gasbuddy.com/  will list Top Tier gas stations in one's area.

You beat me to it. Recommended in most vehicle owners manuals (that I've seen, not saying I've read them all) and by the company that provides my company vehicle.