Fuel pump on a Valkyrie??

[John Schmidt]

Is there any legitimate reason for not having a fuel pump on a Valkyrie? I have a spare pump from my 1200, it shuts off as soon as there's back pressure from a full bowl and see no reason why it can't be used on the Valk. This business of needing to have the fuel line flowing downhill all the way so the gravity feed works full time is ridiculous when a pump would allow easier access to everything under the tank. Case in point; my 1200 project came with a pump from the factory. When I got it the OEM tank was rusted out so it got tossed. I then used a tank off a Std. Valk and welded a mounting strap across the frame where the rear tank bolt goes, then welded a hinge to that. Then welded a strap in front for the forward Valk tank bolt to screw into, thereby adapting the Valk tank to the 1200 and at the same time giving easy access to the air filter and fuse box underneath. The trick here is....it required additional fuel line length which allows me to raise the front of the tank without disconnecting the fuel line. With a pump on the Valk, a person could do much the same thing, sure would make it easier to access the filter. And, if you needed to remove the tank just tip it up and there you have the fuel line, vacuum line and vent line all in plain view. An inline filter could easily be added for additional protection(which I also have on the 1200), plus a good quality quick disconnect that's not make of plastic or (?) and a DanMarc electric shutoff which many of us already are using.

I'm in the process of remounting my tank after some badly needed cleaning and repairing and getting the fuel line attached to the petcock still remains a PITA, especially when it doesn't need to be if one can use a pump. Has anybody ever mounted a fuel pump and have they had any issues develop in the fuel delivery? If it works on the 4 cylinder, I have trouble accepting that it won't work on a 6. After all the years I've had this bike, I'd like to be done with this irritation once and for all. I know what some will say: Go ahead and try it and let us know how it works out. I'm willing to be the "goat" but some input is always valuable first. I know many of you have had your bikes for many years with nary a hitch and just put up with the fuel line/petcock aggravation. So have I, but if it can be improved upon....then why not, to say nothing of the burning of those young ears that happen to be within earshot. 

[indybobm]

Interesting idea. My first question is, is the GL1200 carb float valve spring loaded like the one for the Valkyrie? You would not want the pump pressure compressing that spring. All kinds of nasty things can happen.

[Memor86]

I think there is a lot of people involved on the design of the Honda bikes that if they did not added a fuel pump like on the 1200 or 1500 goldwing is because it's not needed. Hundreds of bikes are on the road with gravity feed carbs with no problems. So I think the legitimate reason for not having a fuel pump is because it's not needed. Proof of that is what I said earlier... hundreds of bikes on the road run fine without it.

[John Schmidt]

Interesting idea. My first question is, is the GL1200 carb float valve spring loaded like the one for the Valkyrie? You would not want the pump pressure compressing that spring. All kinds of nasty things can happen.

Are you talking about the spring loaded tiny pin at the base of the float valve? Don't know if the 1200 has that or not, I overhauled them but frankly don't recall. I know there's a lot of similarity between the carbs on both bikes but those valves I just can't say at the moment.

UPDATE: Just looked it up, yes they are.....same basic design. And the 1500 Goldwings also and they use a fuel pump as well.

[indybobm]

UPDATE: Just looked it up, yes they are.....same basic design. And the 1500 Goldwings also and they use a fuel pump as well.

On the Goldwaing, the tank (and pump) are either horizontal with or below the carbs. Putting a fuel pump on a Valk, you would not only have the aide of the pump, but also gravity because the tank is higher than the carbs.

I do not know how many carbed Goldwings suffered form hydro-lock, but would a fuel pump + gravity feed increase the chance of hydro-lock on a Valk? If everything is working properly, maybe not. I am not saying that a pump will cause that, but if a float hangs up or gets a piece of sediment holding the float valve open, a pump could fill up a cylinder pretty quick.

I think it is a good idea if you can make it work. I would like to see stronger springs in the float valves though.

[The emperor has no clothes]

I believe it would work just fine. Everybody with a belly tank uses a pump with no problem. As far as hydro lock issues, I would think they would be lessened. No fuel would flow unless the key was on. I think though it would be wise to replace the float springs. I can't remember his handle but there is a member that did a turbo job and came up with pretty compelling evidence for replacing them.

[98valk]

UPDATE: Just looked it up, yes they are.....same basic design. And the 1500 Goldwings also and they use a fuel pump as well.

On the Goldwaing, the tank (and pump) are either horizontal with or below the carbs. Putting a fuel pump on a Valk, you would not only have the aide of the pump, but also gravity because the tank is higher than the carbs.

I do not know how many carbed Goldwings suffered form hydro-lock, but would a fuel pump + gravity feed increase the chance of hydro-lock on a Valk? If everything is working properly, maybe not. I am not saying that a pump will cause that, but if a float hangs up or gets a piece of sediment holding the float valve open, a pump could fill up a cylinder pretty quick.

I think it is a good idea if you can make it work. I would like to see stronger springs in the float valves though.

GW did have hydrolock problems

org posted this in '08

Re: Another hydrolock question

Posted By: 98valk <fitness7days@nospam.juno.com>
Date: 9/4/2008 at 12:30:31

In Response To: Another hydrolock question (G-Man (Gary in NY))

this is from Rider mag sept 1988 about the '88 goldwing Gl1500.
they had the hydro-lock problem and it turned out to be the bowl vent hose was sagging. "the low spotfills with gas and prevents air circulation, much like a sink trap. without a connection to atmosphere, the float bowls pressurize and raw fuel is forced up and out of the carbs through the needle jet. From there gravity takes the fuel down the intake runners. if that cylinder has an open intake valve, hydrolock." "The article states that honda issued a Product Update kit on a fix in feb of that yr which included a metal air-vent pipe and a vacuum fuel valve."
Looking at the service manual pics in the carb section it shows the vent hoses as straight sections just laying loosely on top of other hoses. My 98's vent hoses have a 90 degree end. the end is installed into holes in the rear carb support frame.
So this might be the reason and cause of the problem for some bikes.

http://www.valkyrieforum.com/forum/vrcc_tech.cgi?noframes;read=1274246

honda service bulletin fix

http://www.goldwingworld.com/pages/sb1.pdf

[98valk]

I believe it would work just fine. Everybody with a belly tank uses a pump with no problem. As far as hydro lock issues, I would think they would be lessened. No fuel would flow unless the key was on. I think though it would be wise to replace the float springs. I can't remember his handle but there is a member that did a turbo job and came up with pretty compelling evidence for replacing them.

belly tank just refills the main tank which still gravity feeds the carbs.

turbo guy u mentioned
http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,74003.0.html

[The emperor has no clothes]

I believe it would work just fine. Everybody with a belly tank uses a pump with no problem. As far as hydro lock issues, I would think they would be lessened. No fuel would flow unless the key was on. I think though it would be wise to replace the float springs. I can't remember his handle but there is a member that did a turbo job and came up with pretty compelling evidence for replacing them.

belly tank just refills the main tank which still gravity feeds the carbs.

turbo guy u mentioned
http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,74003.0.html

I thought the belly tank supplied fuel to the carbs by way of the pump. Once both tanks were empty it was gravity fed from the main tank from the reserve amount. I know some of the SoCal guys have plumbed theirs differently to gravity feed from the main tank.

[John Schmidt]

UPDATE: Just looked it up, yes they are.....same basic design. And the 1500 Goldwings also and they use a fuel pump as well.

On the Goldwaing, the tank (and pump) are either horizontal with or below the carbs. Putting a fuel pump on a Valk, you would not only have the aide of the pump, but also gravity because the tank is higher than the carbs.

I do not know how many carbed Goldwings suffered form hydro-lock, but would a fuel pump + gravity feed increase the chance of hydro-lock on a Valk? If everything is working properly, maybe not. I am not saying that a pump will cause that, but if a float hangs up or gets a piece of sediment holding the float valve open, a pump could fill up a cylinder pretty quick.

I think it is a good idea if you can make it work. I would like to see stronger springs in the float valves though.

I have a Valk tank adapted to my 1200 which sits well above the carbs, but the fuel runs through a pump first. There is no flow if the pump isn't running, and I installed an aircraft fuel shutoff externally which I turn off for a few seconds prior to shutting the key off. That lets me leave the petcock on all the time, the external is easy to reach but the petcock isn't.

I'll keep looking at this for the next few days before remounting the tank on my Valk. I'd really like to find a different method of plumbing the fuel lines, knowing full well there are hundreds if not thousands of bikes running with gravity feed. That's not the issue here, the PITA method of attaching the fuel line is and I'd like to come up with something else, I haven't decided what just yet.

[bentwrench]

I love having a belly tank for several reasons not the least of which is no chance of a hydrolock.
The pump on the belly tank has a 1 psi check valve that allows no flow when the pump is off.The main tank only feeds the belly tank,the petcock becomes a vent for the lower tank and allows about .7 gal to be held up there for reserve. I love heading out with over 8 gal.fuel on board,the belly tank is worth every penny .https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productdetails.asp?RecID=7550
John you may want to check this link it's the same part number as the one supplied with my tank.

[98valk]

I believe it would work just fine. Everybody with a belly tank uses a pump with no problem. As far as hydro lock issues, I would think they would be lessened. No fuel would flow unless the key was on. I think though it would be wise to replace the float springs. I can't remember his handle but there is a member that did a turbo job and came up with pretty compelling evidence for replacing them.

I had that wrong/backwards. 

Q:  How does it flow fuel?

A:  The Belly Tank is supplied by a 1/2" line from the bung (next to the petcock) in the
main tank.  Air exits from the belly tank into the main tank via the petcock.  Fuel is
always being supplied to the engine from belly tank.  When main tank & belly tank run
out of fuel, switch petcock to reserve and the last gallon will drain to the belly tank for
use.   So, as you use your fuel your CG ultimately is lowered as the fuel moves from your
main tank to your belly tank.
http://www.rmworksinc.com/FAQpage-belly-tank.html

belly tank just refills the main tank which still gravity feeds the carbs.

turbo guy u mentioned
http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,74003.0.html

I thought the belly tank supplied fuel to the carbs by way of the pump. Once both tanks were empty it was gravity fed from the main tank from the reserve amount. I know some of the SoCal guys have plumbed theirs differently to gravity feed from the main tank.

[John Schmidt]

I love having a belly tank for several reasons not the least of which is no chance of a hydrolock.
The pump on the belly tank has a 1 psi check valve that allows no flow when the pump is off.The main tank only feeds the belly tank,the petcock becomes a vent for the lower tank and allows about .7 gal to be held up there for reserve. I love heading out with over 8 gal.fuel on board,the belly tank is worth every penny .https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productdetails.asp?RecID=7550
John you may want to check this link it's the same part number as the one supplied with my tank.

It would appear if that pump works fine with the belly tank and not cause problems with the carbs, then it surely should work in conjunction with the OEM tank. I'll look into the belly tank system a bit more, thanks for the link. 

[sixlow]

I love having a belly tank for several reasons not the least of which is no chance of a hydrolock.
The pump on the belly tank has a 1 psi check valve that allows no flow when the pump is off.The main tank only feeds the belly tank,the petcock becomes a vent for the lower tank and allows about .7 gal to be held up there for reserve. I love heading out with over 8 gal.fuel on board,the belly tank is worth every penny .https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productdetails.asp?RecID=7550
John you may want to check this link it's the same part number as the one supplied with my tank.

plus one, John I have the R&M belly tank. love it except for not being able to use the jack adapter and the swing arm will not go down far enough to release the shock from it's mounts and getting a shock back on is a PITA, the shock needs to be compressed slightly to go on the post. I use my big craftsman screwdriver and pry with rags on top of shock and under grab rail.
http://www.rmworksinc.com/

also, just a thought, my 01 VT1100 Sabre has a fuel pump after a gravity fed filter.

[bentwrench]

Hey Sixlow,what length shocks are you running?I have stock length prog.440s and don't have any trouble getting the shocks on during a tire swap.
I also bought a another jack and cut two wedges out of 4x4 post.and bolted them on lift.now I can lift the whole bike up by the tank.

[sixlow]

Stock I/S shocks on a Tourer, just need 1/2 to 3/4 inch compression. I also built a 2 by 6 plank with angle blocks to jack her up nicely.

[gordonv]

I have a fuel pump from a Shadow. I intend to mount it as a fuel supply and shut off. Run it through a relay powered by a coil (no juice, no fuel [BAS]). I'll try the OEM petcock changed to manual.

[Gavin_Sons]

I have a fuel pump from a Shadow. I intend to mount it as a fuel supply and shut off. Run it through a relay powered by a coil (no juice, no fuel [BAS]). I'll try the OEM petcock changed to manual.

Relays usually are powered by a coil 

[Robert]

I have the belly tank too, and the fuel is fed to the carbs from the belly tank via a filter and pump. You fill the regular tank and it drains down to the belly tank. The pump does have a valve that stops hydrolock. So There would be no problem with a fuel pump on a regular tank and no need for the Dan Marc valve and there is an added benefit of using a regular fuel filter is nice. I have 3 inline filters with no problem at all. John not all the pumps have the 2 valves in them that would be required to stop hydrolock so make sure you get the one they use for the belly tank as it does have this valve. All these pumps look the same but don't function the same. When I had to replace mine I found out.

[John Schmidt]

Robert, re. the fuel pump mod. #, I emailed R&M and he gave me the same number as mentioned above: 40178. I've read up on that particular pump and feel safe with it for the reasons you mentioned. I went ahead and hooked up the tank in the usual manner for now so I can ride until I get all the parts together. My tentative plan is to create a mount for it above the alternator cover, run a line down to it from the petcock via a quick disconnect, then from the pump to the main fuel line. With the petcock I have, a rather pricey item....not plastic, it should make removing the tank a five minute job. A bolt in front and back on the tank, unplug the sender, disconnect the QD and lift it off....pulling the vent line as you do so. I'm considering changing the petcock to one with a threaded output so I can install a 90 degree fitting that will point down. I want no more fuel tubing than necessary, however I do think I'll keep the DanMarc for the time being until I'm satisfied with the performance. I'll keep you all posted on how it's going, I was going to mount the back of the tank on a hinge but can't find what I want but this will make a huge difference. And....a long time ago I discovered it's a good idea to carry a spare fuel pump with you, which I'll be doing. Murphy's Law strikes at the most inopportune time! 

[MarkT]

I've been working on this for awhile.  Had to take a break while other projects intervened, then family time out of state.  Back to it now.

I installed my belly tank as a large reserve.  Do not want to depend on the fuel pump running continuously, or for it to HAVE to work to deliver fuel. Gravity is pretty reliable - provided I don't cause a problem with an air blockage.  Dick had his R&M fuel pump fail 3 times.  Mine runs only when I need to transfer the lower tank's contents up to the main.  I also needed a valve between both tanks on the fill line, to fill the lower tank and then block it while using the main. I used a solenoid but a manual valve would be easier and cheaper as long as it was a ball type valve for good flow.  I ran the belly vent line to the main tank vent line (instead of to the petcock per R&M's design), then put a tiny hole on the collar of the filler to vent both tanks.  The fuel pump line from the belly tank connects to a T-fitting on the OEM fuel line.  Which I made longer to install a filter and a Dan-Marc.  So the fuel delivery is same as OEM except it passes through a filter, Dan-Marc, and is longer.  It also has a small vertical loop in it, which I expect to cause trouble but can't test due to snow right now.  However I expect with the known problems of a line that isn't consistently downhill, that switching on the fuel pump will deliver fuel past the air blockage (as well as refilling the main) via the T-fitting which is right downstream from the petcock.. I don't know yet if the pump would have to remain pumping at that point, but I'm guessing it would.  I had made my system so the lines to the lower tank and the fuel filter, both off the T-fitting, are both flex fuel lines so attaching them to the petcock is doable.

R&M's design problem with this system was, how to make it easy to install, and have it work transparently so they wouldn't get bad reviews. That leaves the problem of an unreliable fuel pump that MUST run continuously.  They address that with a caveat in the manual that says, "if the fuel pump fails, just replumb the fuel line back the way it was, from the petcock to where it used to connect to the line to the fuel rails." (paraphrasing) Don't think so.  Not on the side of the road.  Working on the fuel lines is a PITA in the shop.  Never mind on the side of the road. I made a special extra-long needle nose pliar just for attaching the fuel lines.

Just getting back to work on this.  I am changing the fuel line from where it connects to the T between the carbs, to a flare-fit copper tubing assembly, which then makes an S-curve to allow length for the Dan-Marc, fuel filter, and T-fitting, all while being able to flex for connecting at the petcock, and continuously downhill.  Definitely not running the fuel pump continuously.  Getting parts needed from http://www.mcmaster.com/

BTW I've had no problems removing and reinstalling 444 shocks to pull the axle over my pipes and change the tire. Also the fuel is delivered to the fuel rail via the pump and the belly vent goes to the petcock, if you install per R&M's instructions.  So the fuel path is from the main to the belly, and then pumped to the engine.  The fuel drains to the belly via the bung and large line while refueling, and there is no control over that flow, if you use their scheme. There is also no reserve. The petcock is modified to be non-vacuum, and you just leave it on. Again, it's new function (per R&M) is to vent the lower tank - not handle fuel. Hydrolock is not possible if the check valve in the fuel pump is working OK.  In my install, in a nutshell the belly tank is a large reserve - fuel is stored there and returned to the main tank.

I use a standard bike/atv lift to lift the bike, using an adapter I made for belly tanked bikes, that pins to the holes on either side of the engine casing. The adapter can remain fastened to the bike and no angled blocks are needed.  I will be making that adapter available soon.

I've installed a panel to control the fuel pump and fuel solenoid.  The switches on the panel trip latch relays while the LED's indicate status.

[John Schmidt]

Mark, I've heard about failures with the Facet pump that comes with the belly tank, so I'm wondering why the OEM unit on the 1200 Wing doesn't have that reputation. Prior to '84 they were all mechanical, but from '84 on they were electrical. Can't help but wonder about quality on the Facet with that many failures for one installation. Could it possibly have something to do with the location?  As for hooking up the hose to the petcock, I also have a set of three hose pliers with a long reach and they do make it easier to connect. Just wish I could have more confidence in the elec. pump, sure would make life easier.

I currently have a Pingel non-vacuum petcock that leads to an inline filter followed by the DanMarc. So far, no trouble with this setup for nearly 10 yrs. now.

This is the filter I use.
http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/purolator-fuel-filter-f10024/5860512-P?searchTerm=purolator+fuel+filter

[Steel cowboy]

John, my question to having a fuel pump is, at what designed pressure does it shut off. Being that the Valkyries are gravity fed, the fuel pump you use has to match that pressure or you could force fuel into the carb. And into the cylinder. Just a thought.

[John Schmidt]

Good question Cowboy. Keep in mind the Facet 40178 pump has a pressure of 2-3.5 and is used to feed the carbs constantly on a belly tank installation. Plus, that's also the same general range of pressure used on the OEM pump for the GL1200. On that bike(my project bike), I can turn on the key and hear the pump run for a few seconds before it stops. While the bike is running, I can put my hand on the pump and feel its pulses which aren't constant, just as fuel is needed in the bowls. When I reworked the carbs on the 1200, I found a lot of similarities between them and the Vakyrie carbs, they use the same slow jets for example. One very nice thing about the 1200 carbs.....the pilot screws are on the side of the carb instead of underneath. I've wondered if they would pass enough fuel to be used on the Valk, sure would be easier to work with. 

[Punisher]

There is a reserve with the R&M standard design, that is why the bung sticks a ways up into the tank and is placed near the petcock.   When you flip the petcock to reserve the remaining fuel runs out of the petcock (that is used as a vent in normal operation) and down into the belly tank.  The original bung line to the tank then becomes the vent while the fuel is flowing down to the belly tank.

I have been running the R&M belly tank for over 5 years, no pump failure.   I used T's, two Dan-Marcs, a relay and a three way toggle switch so that I can flip between belly tank, gravity feed or no fuel flow whatsoever.

I even have a inline quick-disconnect in my fuel line with six feet of hose that I keep in the saddle bag.   If someone runs out of of fuel I just hook up the line, turn on my pump and feed fuel into their tank.  It's also a good way to pump my fuel down in the main tank before I pull it.

I think heat is the killer of these facet pumps.   Anyone that I've heard of that had failures were having vapor lock issues with their pumps during hot weather.    Simply build a heat shield to protect the pump from the exhaust (it is mounted right near the right exhaust) or remove the chrome cover and wrap the exhaust in that area with some heat-wrap and put the cover back on.

[MarkT]

Thx for the long-term user info Punisher.  Mine is still in setup so haven't experienced much results of usage yet. Didn't occur about the backwards flow through the vent for reserve.  Of course I still have reserve since I've set mine up with the main tank operation is still gravity, so that wasn't a concern here.  My concern was to not depend on the fuel pump. While still preventing hydrolock and filtering the fuel.  Good info on the heat.  Obviously you figured the R&M install was wanting as well and modified it for more options.  Good idea on the fuel supply for others, as well as draining your tank.  I carry a siphon hose which I have rescued others with - just have to drain to a vessel before pouring it in - or get my bike higher which is also usually possible.  I'm thinking I could also drain my main with another T fitting and a valve & nipple - and put it on the fuel pump line; could drain both tanks.  I'll incorporate that since I'm working on it now.

[John Schmidt]

Punisher, can you draw a diagram for me of what you did, I followed it part of the way. Re. pump failure, earlier when I found out where it was located I also felt that may be part of the cause. My mounting idea was to fab a platform over the alternator cover, leaving space under it, make it out of aluminum so it would double as a heat sink. I'll also be interested in Mark comes up with so having said all that, I'm putting my project on the back burner until I see the results.