Stumped.....can't get front brakes working on the 1200 project.

[John Schmidt]

I guess it's back to the drawing board. As an experiment to lessen the chance of air seeping in, I removed the bleeders today and wrapped a slim strip of teflon on the threads then started over on the bleeding. It had drained the m/c so I used my auto-feed bottle and set it up top again. Using my air driven bleeder, I bled the left side first(farthest away from the m/c), ran it until there was no sign of air coming through. Then moved to the right side, did the same there. Result, a lot of brake fluid passed along with air bubbles on both sides but little brake action at the handle. I get a slight amount of resistance when down to 1/2" from the grip. I'm at a loss; new m/c, new brake lines, rebuilt calipers, new pads, everything is tight.....including my jaws now. I've been working on this part of the build off/on for over a month.

I'm beginning to think a friend of mine is on to something(find a nearby pond) unless someone has some spending money burning a hole in their pocket. Everything is either new or rebuilt on the bike except the engine, I'm getting tired of it and this brake problem isn't helping. 

[Bighead]

Come on John you can't give up now

[Blackduck]

Have you tried removing the hose from the MC and plug it, then see if it will pressure up?
By new MC is it totally new or rebuilt?

[John Schmidt]

Totally new, Honda OEM for a Valkyrie. I mounted Valk bars and controls to the bike, the clutch side works fine with just a rebuild. I rebuilt the brake m/c but didn't seem to work so ordered a new one, figuring that would cure the trouble. Didn't make any difference. Guess I'll try your suggestion and plug the m/c to see if it builds pressure. Really wanted this thing on the road by early Spring but doesn't look like I'll make it.

[MarcusS]

I have an old Honda and it is hard to get the air out of the Front MC. I need to open the hose connection to the MC and let the air burp out when I hold pressure with the lever. I could not seem to make the air go down the hose. I pressure up the line and barely loosen the hose to get it out.  I also have pushed the pads back out a little to force that air back up into the reservoir. Reverse flow is the best way to bleed the MC.

After you bleed the line. Pump the pads out and manually push them back in to force fluid backwards.

Good luck.

[hubcapsc]

When I put new OEM front brake lines on my Valkyrie, and rebuilt
the master cylinder, I had a hard time getting the system bled right.

I went at it several different times on several different days, but it
was finally all good. Perhaps it is that place near the triple trees where
it transitions to hard line for a few inches where the bubble (or whatever
it is) hangs up... I had to crank scary hard on those connectors to
keep it from leaking there, too...

-Mike

[Steel cowboy]

John, just the same way you have to fill the out drive on a boat (from the lower fill hole to the upper one) try filling the brake reserward from the bleeder up to the reserward, then cap it. Any air bubbles should ride up much easier than trying to force them down.

[98valk]

don't use the vacuum bleeder. your drawing air from the thread connections esp the bleed connection.
tighten all connections another 1/8 turn then just pump master cylinder and drain via bleed connection, no mity-vac etc.
used a mity vac once for brake bleed drove me nuts kept getting air, was getting the bubbles from the bleed screw threads. from now on its old school, just pump and bleed.

[Ramie]

Been a while since if replaced or rebuilt a m/c but I've always had to bleed them before bleeding the line or caliper.

[dragon96]

Take resivoir cover off anf pull the lever to onposition ! Tape or some how keep it locked in the on position ! Let it set for a couple of days ! It sounds like you have an ait bubble trapped in the line somewhere ! This should let it naturally escape ! I have had to do this several times on 1200' s ! Good luck

[Daniel Meyer]

Do you still have the stock crossover? On those years they are impossible to bleed unless you dismount it and orient it vertically. They have a hollow in them that holds air bubbles.

I had a habit of tearing them off and replacing them with two lines all the way to the MC and a longer banjo bolt.

[John Schmidt]

Do you still have the stock crossover? On those years they are impossible to bleed unless you dismount it and orient it vertically. They have a hollow in them that holds air bubbles.

I had a habit of tearing them off and replacing them with two lines all the way to the MC and a longer banjo bolt.

This is how I have it set up now, a single line from the m/c to the tee, then branching off to either side. Basically the same setup I did on the Valk and it's solid, the 1200.....squish. I'm debating picking up a splitter that Honda used on the 1000 Wings, '79 or '80 didn't have the brake light switch mounted on it. Don't know if that would help the cause or not, doubtful. Although I don't like the appearance of the dual lines from the m/c, I may need to go that route. A few more experiments to do before I give in.

[knockdolian]

When ever ive bled a dry system Ive always bled it a bit at a time. remove the hose from the master cylinder and stick your finger over the end of the cylinder. pump the brake, air and fluid will be forced out. you will feel when its good. Add the hose and do the same at each joint. Your issue will be an air lock at the master cylinder. Once all done remove the reservoir cover and just feather the leaver. Any remaining air Will bubble out. Does any of this make sense ??     

[John Schmidt]

When ever ive bled a dry system Ive always bled it a bit at a time. remove the hose from the master cylinder and stick your finger over the end of the cylinder. pump the brake, air and fluid will be forced out. you will feel when its good. Add the hose and do the same at each joint. Your issue will be an air lock at the master cylinder. Once all done remove the reservoir cover and just feather the leaver. Any remaining air Will bubble out. Does any of this make sense ??     

Yes, it does. This morning I removed the hose from the m/c and put a plug in it. Took a few pumps of the lever, bubbles coming out all the time, then finally it was solid. I replaced the hose and tried it again, bleeding both sides. It did get a bit harder at the lever so I might just try the method you describe. Sure can't hurt, I've tried about everything else. If I could find a 3AN cap, I'd remove the line going to the right in the picture(for left caliper) and see if I can get a solid lever with just the one caliper hooked up.

[Daniel Meyer]

that setup should be easily bleedable...I'm inclined to think master cylinder (like other have posted), but also look at the calipers...are the bleed points oriented at the top when they are mounted? Usually are, but aftermarket or other model calipers sometimes end up not so when mounted and to bleed them well you need to dismount them and orient them with the bleed screw on top.

[John Schmidt]

Daniel, I'm going to a local speed shop and see if they have an AN3 cap I can use on the tee. Figure I'd try disconnecting & capping off where the line goes to the left side, then see if it will bleed down properly. The m/c pumps up solid if I remove the hose from it and plug the output. Thought I might try Knockdolian's procedure and try bleeding one section at a time.

This whole problem just doesn't make sense to me. The OEM m/c for the 1200 is larger than the Valk, and it only operated one caliper, whereas the Valk m/c operated two. That's why I don't think it's a matter of too small a m/c. I'm getting tired of that sickenly sweet smell of brake fluid and want to move on to something else to get frustrated over.  

PS: Meant to add....the bleeders are ~2" above the banjo attachment point for the hoses, essentially on the high side of the calipers.

[knockdolian]

It only takes a small amount of air in the system to mess things up. The point about the bleed points on the callipers is a good one. if they aren't on the top try positioning them so that they are. Now that the master cylinder pumps up remove the cap and try giving the leaver a small amount just enough to move the piston. Squeeze it half a dozen times just that much (feathering) then a slow full pull. See what happens it brings any air in the system to the top honest     

[saddlesore]

I'm not sure if this is applicable here but while working on a friends GW we discovered that the right front brake was tied into the rear brake. Sort an old school anti lock. Could that be the problem here?

[knockdolian]

I'm not sure if this is applicable here but while working on a friends GW we discovered that the right front brake was tied into the rear brake. Sort an old school anti lock. Could that be the problem here?
[/quot

I think that was only on 1500s but I could be wrong

[Skinhead]

I'm not sure if this is applicable here but while working on a friends GW we discovered that the right front brake was tied into the rear brake. Sort an old school anti lock. Could that be the problem here?

I think that was only on 1500s but I could be wrong

That is called an integrated brake system, and the 87 1200cc wings had it, at least mine did, but on that system the rear MC operates the rear caliper and one of the fronts, the other front operates off the hand brake MC only.  Shouldn't cause a problem if you know you have things plumbed properly and I'm sure John knows what he's doing in that regard.

[John Schmidt]

Hmmm, at times I'm not too sure I know what I'm doing, other times I'm positive I don't. 

This is an '84 Std. and also came with the integrated brake system, which I did away with. I plugged one of the outlets on the rear m/c, used a single line to the rear caliper. Then as the pix shows, a single line from the front m/c to a splitter/tee so the brakes are set up like our Valks. What bugs me is I've done this before for other owners and their old Wings and in one case even used his OEM m/c which is for a single caliper only, and it worked fine. I'll keep working at it, sooner or later it will work right....I keep telling myself.