Yet another Progressive 444 question...

[DRWfan1926]

Newbie to the forums, but I've been enjoying my 2000 standard for two years or so now.

I apologize for starting yet another thread on the Progressive 444, but I've searched the forums and haven't been able to find a direct answer to my question.  It's probably there, somewhere, but I'm just missing it.

My bike came with Progressive rear shocks.  I have no idea which ones they are, I just know that they are WAY too soft...even at the highest setting, and especially when I ride 2-up with my wife or daughter.  I'm a big guy (300+ bills), so when I have a passenger, we are pushing 500#...and my poor shocks just can't handle it.  I also hope to do a bit of traveling in the future, so add in some luggage weight, too.

I've pretty much decided on the Progressive 444s...I just don't know which 444s I need or which ones will fit my bike.  The ones I am looking at are 444-4039C (I could go with the black if I had to, but the missus prefers the chrome).  Progressive lists the following specs:

- 13" length
- 10.10" comp length
- 2.9" of travel
- spring rates of 210/250

Again, I've searched the forums and didn't see anyone who has installed this specific.  What I would like to know is:

- Will this specific model/version fit my bike?
- Is this a good choice, or is it overkill (based on the spring rates)?
- If this is not a good choice, which one is?

I would like to order my new shocks as soon as I can, so any assistance/guidance would be greatly appreciated.  Thank you in advance.

Craig

[Mr.BubblesVRCCDS0008]

Sounds like you might have the 412s on there now. I'm about 250 and even with the wife on the rear my 440s are set on 5 which is the midrange of the shock. Mine are the 250 spring HD on the coil springs. They no longer make the 440s but the 444s are the replacement for the 440s. I have the 13in shocks because I'm 6'2" with a 35 inseam. The 13in shocks will made the bike lean alittle more when on the sidestand.

[Fazer]

I have 444-4213C on my Tourer set at about 1/2 of the preload(?) and have not had a bottoming problem.  Not carrying as much weight as the OP, but have wondered if I would have been better off with the heavy duty version.  Most of the posts on the forum reference the HD, and I would think at your size and riding two up, you would prefer the HD.  With the hard bags,  I cannot get good enough grip on the shocks to adjust by hand, so I bought a set of two strap wrenches at HF and the small one works perfectly.  Can't get a very long throw, but get's the job done.

[hubcapsc]

13" 

HD springs 

strap wrench 

-Mike "195lbs, 440 shock"

[DRWfan1926]

I have 444-4213C on my Tourer set at about 1/2 of the preload(?) and have not had a bottoming problem.  Not carrying as much weight as the OP, but have wondered if I would have been better off with the heavy duty version.  Most of the posts on the forum reference the HD, and I would think at your size and riding two up, you would prefer the HD.  With the hard bags,  I cannot get good enough grip on the shocks to adjust by hand, so I bought a set of two strap wrenches at HF and the small one works perfectly.  Can't get a very long throw, but get's the job done.

For comparison, the 4213 has a spring rate of 120/170, and 3.19 inches of travel.

[DRWfan1926]

So, I shouldn't have any fitment issues with the 4039s? 

The next step up would be the 444-4051 at 270/315 and 2.9" of travel.  Too much?

[RDKLL]

I have 444-4230B 11.5 and I am, at 240 lbs, just below the heavy duty weight range and I have half turn of adjustment in them and they are great. They compliment the front spring nicely.

[MarkT]

I have the 444-4020B which are supposed to be the HD OEM length.  I'm about 250.  With these set on minimum preload they feel like a hardtail.  My reference is to Deerslayer's 416 air shocks which have a much cushier ride - and cost a lot less.  However they have needed to be resealed more than once.  In about 18 years.  This weekend we rode with S.O. on back, down Hwy 24, very rough on a several mile stretch past Simla, at 70 I thought we were going to need spinal surgery.  HORRIBLE.  Not happy.  Paid a LOT for these shocks which are going to have to go.  Are they just wrong for us?  Should I have got std duty instead of HD?

[hubcapsc]

I have the 444-4020B which are supposed to be the HD OEM length.  I'm about 250.  With these set on minimum preload they feel like a hardtail.  My reference is to Deerslayer's 416 air shocks which have a much cushier ride - and cost a lot less.  However they have needed to be resealed more than once.  In about 18 years.  This weekend we rode with S.O. on back, down Hwy 24, very rough on a several mile stretch past Simla, at 70 I thought we were going to need spinal surgery.  HORRIBLE.  Not happy.  Paid a LOT for these shocks which are going to have to go.  Are they just wrong for us?  Should I have got std duty instead of HD?

I got them to swap springs for me on my 440s... from not-HD to HD... there was a big
difference, so maybe if you go to not-HD on yours you'll like it...

Your air shocks are "cushy" but not "wallowy"?

-Mike

[MarkT]

I don't know what you mean by "wallowy". The 416's don't have much damping.  In fact when I head into the twisties I dial up the pressure to compensate for that, and increase clearance.  On Jade I wanted shocks that had good damping, plus I don't need to change preload much anymore so didn't need to be able to do it quickly with just turning an air valve. And didn't want to deal with periodic shock rebuilds due to air leaks.

[hubcapsc]

In the early 70's I rode to school with some guy whose mother had
a cadillac... that thing had mushy cooshy suspension and it "wallowed" through
the curves... you could practically get seasick riding in the back seat...

-Mike

[MarkT]

OK got some more info from the horse's mouth as it were.  That is Frank, at Progressive Suspension.

I did a lot of reading and measuring today.  Turns out, my springs were bottomed out with no preload.  Cranking in full preload is still not enough.  At full preload which is 8 turns, 4 "bars" showing, and still getting 1.51" sag (measured with a digital caliper). Supposed to be 1.0" sag.  However a test ride showed the ride was much better.

444 shocks are specifically proscribed for the Valkyrie.  "The lie-yers made me say that."
"But we know, you Valk riders will do what ya want.  I'm the same way."
If you look on the web site, they only recommend 412's and 416's for the Valkyrie.

So Frank says, the HD 444 shocks, have HD springs only for HD's.  That is, Harley-Fergussons.  Not nearly heavy enough for the much bigger Valkyrie. And probably the wrong angle, leverage-wise (I added that observation).  Look on the springs if you have HD 444's - the spring will say 105/150 which IS the HD HD spring.  Spring # 14200 is the std duty spring for the Valk Interstate 444 shock, while it is HD for 444's on a Tourer or Std.  The P/N for that spring is 03-1318-20(B if black). They will sell the spring if you want to install it, or you can send in your shocks for them to do it.  I'm having the springs sent since I have a press I can change them. Not expensive - I'm paying $18.23 ea which is a small markdown.

Edit

OK I just did some more digging.  The springs that are coming have a 140/200 rate. The rate represents lbs/in compression, and I'm guessing the low-hi numbers are the rates at the ends of the preload range. Recall the springs that come on the "HD" 440's is only 105/150.  It appears there are other rates that might fit as well.  That is, 120/170, 210/250, and 270/315.  If I'm right on this, the ride I got with maxed out preload ought to be pretty close to the new springs with no preload.  And that was an improved ride, so I might be happy with these springs.  Or if not, they have more.  Then there's always the Atkins Diet...

[DRWfan1926]

MarkT,

Thanks so much for the investigative work.  Looks like I need to find the 444-4057, 444-4071, 444-4221 or 444-4242 shocks.  These have the 03-1318-20B/30 springs (140/200 spring rate).  These are all 13" shocks.  The only thing different between these, it appears, is the travel and comp length.  Travel ranges from 2.44, 2.69, 2.94 and 3.19 inches.  Anyone have any thoughts on which is better or worse?

OK got some more info from the horse's mouth as it were.  That is Frank, at Progressive Suspension.

I did a lot of reading and measuring today.  Turns out, my springs were bottomed out with no preload.  Cranking in full preload is still not enough.  At full preload which is 8 turns, 4 "bars" showing, and still getting 1.51" sag (measured with a digital caliper). Supposed to be 1.0" sag.  However a test ride showed the ride was much better.

444 shocks are specifically proscribed for the Valkyrie.  "The lie-yers made me say that."
"But we know, you Valk riders will do what ya want.  I'm the same way."
If you look on the web site, they only recommend 412's and 416's for the Valkyrie.

So Frank says, the HD 444 shocks, have HD springs only for HD's.  That is, Harley-Fergussons.  Not nearly heavy enough for the much bigger Valkyrie. And probably the wrong angle, leverage-wise (I added that observation).  Look on the springs if you have HD 444's - the spring will say 105/150 which IS the HD HD spring.  Spring # 14200 is the std duty spring for the Valk Interstate 444 shock, while it is HD for 444's on a Tourer or Std.  The P/N for that spring is 03-1318-20(B if black). They will sell the spring if you want to install it, or you can send in your shocks for them to do it.  I'm having the springs sent since I have a press I can change them. Not expensive - I'm paying $18.23 ea which is a small markdown.

Edit

OK I just did some more digging.  The springs that are coming have a 140/200 rate. The rate represents lbs/in compression, and I'm guessing the low-hi numbers are the rates at the ends of the preload range. Recall the springs that come on the "HD" 440's is only 105/150.  It appears there are other rates that might fit as well.  That is, 120/170, 210/250, and 270/315.  If I'm right on this, the ride I got with maxed out preload ought to be pretty close to the new springs with no preload.  And that was an improved ride, so I might be happy with these springs.  Or if not, they have more.  Then there's always the Atkins Diet...

[hubcapsc]

OK I just did some more digging.  The springs that are coming have a 140/200 rate. The rate represents lbs/in compression, and I'm guessing the low-hi numbers are the rates at the ends of the preload range. Recall the springs that come on the "HD" 440's is only 105/150.  It appears there are other rates that might fit as well.  That is, 120/170, 210/250, and 270/315.  If I'm right on this, the ride I got with maxed out preload ought to be pretty close to the new springs with no preload.  And that was an improved ride, so I might be happy with these springs.  Or if not, they have more.  Then there's always the Atkins Diet...

I don't understand how they get away with just slapping different springs on the same shock (that is -
ignore damping considerations)... but I accept that that is what they do, and I do like my
shocks...  ???

-Mike

[DRWfan1926]

To kinda answer my own question...the OEM shocks have 120mm (~4.7 in) of travel.  The closest to this that Progressive offers is 81mm (3.19 in).  The shock that has the 140/200 spring rate and 81mm of travel is the 444-4221B/C.  Is that what I should go with, or the 444-4051, which has a spring rate of 270/315 and 74mm of travel?  I just don't want to end up with something that is too soft.  Decisions, decisions, decisions...

[MarkT]

I'm guessing with the weight you gave at the top, the 140/200 spring is gonna be too light.  The 270/315 might be too strong when you are alone.  Maybe the first one you listed at the top - 444-4039C with 210/250 would be a good guess.  Then if you need more spring you can buy and install them.  I just paid $18 ea for the 140/200 springs and installed them.  You need the install tool.  I made my own, basically just copied what they sell, didn't want to wait.  Only took me an hour or so to make the tool but I have a metal shop.  http://www.progressivesuspension.com/product/1477/shock-tool-for-psi-shocks

It's too cold to ride right now or I would have tested my shocks.  OK I could suit up, but I'm pretty busy & it will be warm Sunday, I can wait.  Have to re-aim my lights too, they were too low after I dialed up the preload plus I blew out the headlight & a new one always points a bit different.



My copy.  Not fancy but it works. That's 2" exhaust tubing 4" long, a cutout tiedown eye and a 5/16" course screw rod 3" long, with a 3/4" hex nut & a couple fender washers welded on the end.