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Hook#3287
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« on: May 09, 2016, 04:20:12 PM » |
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Here's what I done. Battery shows 12.58 V and I already tried the backup battery in tandem. Replace starter switch/kill switch assembly. Starter button was already cleaned twice and fixed once, so it was due. Swapped out the starter relay with one that worked last week. Checked for continuity in: Clutch switch Neutral switch Side stand switch Starter relay 30 amp fuse Ignition 10 amp fuse Bank angle relay New Starter switch New Kill switch All passed. Pulled ground cable at engine and filed the cable end and the engine case. What a PITA getting that back together, but it had to be done to rule it out and this bike spent a few years under a tarp in the salt air of Long Island. The starter relay female end has a slight amount of corrosion, so I filed the insides with a mini file. Following the manual on page 18-16, the inspection of the ground and the Green/Red wire has NO continuity and starter relay voltage is 0 between Yellow/Red wire and ground when the start button is pushed. Starter works when I jump the posts on the starter relay switch. I'm stumped.   The only thing I haven't ruled out yet is the Bank Sensor. Can anyone give me help on how to check it out? Can I isolate it by connecting some wires together? Any other suggestions? Thanks ahead. These girls are getting a little long in the tooth and I'll bet electrical will become the major issue we will be seeing in the future. |
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« Last Edit: May 15, 2016, 01:00:13 PM by Hook#3287 »
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Valker
Member
Posts: 2998
Wahoo!!!!
Texas Panhandle
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« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2016, 04:54:42 PM » |
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Are you sure the bank angle sensor is not upside down?
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I ride a motorcycle because nothing transports me as quickly from where I am to who I am.
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Hook#3287
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« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2016, 04:58:30 PM » |
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Yeah, never removed it, just loosened the center cover bolts and slid it forward a little so I could relocate my air shock valve.
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Crush
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« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2016, 05:03:05 PM » |
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You said you are getting voltage at the battery, make sure the battery terminals are snugged. Its an Issue with Hondas.
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bassman
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« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2016, 05:14:58 PM » |
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IPG's ? Ignition pulse generators located in the fan belt area ? Do a search for IPG's in the search box above
and see if any of it applies in your situation. Doesn't happen often but they have been known to go bad on rare occasions..........don't ask me how I know......good luck
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Hook#3287
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« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2016, 06:29:53 PM » |
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You said you are getting voltage at the battery, make sure the battery terminals are snugged. Its an Issue with Hondas.
Yeah, just not mine. Their snug. Everything works except the start thing. The lights, horn, blinkers, brake lights, everything but the starter when I hit the button, but the starter works if I jump the relay. IPG's ? Ignition pulse generators located in the fan belt area ? Do a search for IPG's in the search box above
and see if any of it applies in your situation. Doesn't happen often but they have been known to go bad on rare occasions..........don't ask me how I know......good luck
My problem is no turn over, so, I'm pretty sure that's not my issue. But thanks for posting.  |
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old2soon
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« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2016, 07:07:07 PM » |
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I have a post on the general board about this very issue. Look VERY closely at the 4 relays ahead of the battery box. Mine had a bit of corrosion on the male tabs in the relay. Also some loose connections in the red pug from the starter switch to the loom-the 9 pin pug. My brother-da prez-spent about 6 hours chasing circuits on my I/S. All it takes is one of those connections in the red plug to not be connected. We had similar results as you-continuity tests voltage tests and test light all good and no start. On that red plug he pushed each individual contact from the backside to make sure it was connected. It will and it did drive ya nuts til you git er figured out. Hope this is of some help fer ya! About being stored in the N E salt air-REALLY have a good look at those connections. RIDE SAFE. |
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Today is the tommorow you worried about yesterday. If at first you don't succeed screw it-save it for nite check. 1964 1968 U S Navy. Two cruises off Nam.
VRCCDS0240 2012 GL1800 Gold Wing Motor Trike conversion
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BonS
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« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2016, 07:10:31 PM » |
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Have you located the Neutral Diode? It's actually two diodes in a single package. One is for the neutral light but the other is needed to pass voltage to the starter relay. I can't tell you where it is 'cause I don't know. I suspect it's behind the coolant overflow tank. Obviously just a guess, and I've not heard of one failing, but it could be corrosion on the terminals.
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BonS
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« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2016, 07:11:21 PM » |
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Great minds Dennis!
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The emperor has no clothes
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« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2016, 07:21:32 PM » |
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O2S may be on to something there. You did say you loosened the center panel and moved out. One of the relay connections might have worked loose.
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CajunRider
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« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2016, 07:23:56 PM » |
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Things needed for the starter solenoid to go click... - Starter button (obviously...  ) - Gear position (neutral switch) - Kickstand switch (typically only if in gear or neutral switch is bad) - Clutch lever switch - Run switch (red switch on handlebar... "Run/Stop" switch) - Tip-over sensor ... ... ... Can't think of any more at the moment... Would have to dig up the wiring diagram to know if I'm missing anything. You may have to disconnect and check each one with an ohm meter, one by one. Been there before... I feel your pain. Kind-a like finding a needle in a hay stack. Good luck!!! |
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Sent from my Apple IIe
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Rio Wil
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« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2016, 08:03:44 PM » |
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You indicated you jumped the start relay and the engine turned over......does the engine run OK with no misses etc. I'm thinking you still have a start button issue.....
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indybobm
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« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2016, 08:05:38 PM » |
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A couple of thoughts here.
Since you did not get continuity from the Green/Red wire to ground in the first test, and you did get 12vdc at the Yellow/Red wire in the next test, that might indicate that you have multiple wiring problems.
The Starter Relay is energized by two wires:
1. Green/Red wire at the Starter Relay. This is the ground for the relay.
2. The Yellow/Red wire at the Starter Relay. This is the +12vdc signal from the Starter Button.
The ground for the starter relay comes from 2 sources.
1. Anytime the Neutral Switch is in the neutral position.
or if in gear,
2. Clutch Lever Switch with the lever pulled in with the Sidestand Switch with sidestand up.
With one of the above conditions met, pressing the Starter Button applies +12vdc to the Starter Relay through the Yellow/Red wire at the Starter Relay connector and energizes the relay.
You should also have +12vdc (with the key on) at the Red wire in the connector at the top of the Starter Relay.
I do not think it is the Neutral Diode (located in the fuse panel). The ICM has a line that shuts down the engine when it looses a ground, I.E. when the sidestand goes down. The diode feeds the neutral switch ground through it so that then the bike is in neutral with the sidestand down it does not kill the engine. It allows the sidestand to be down as long as the bike is in neutral. This is a different ground circuit from the one discussed above.
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« Last Edit: May 09, 2016, 08:21:49 PM by indybobm »
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So many roads, so little time
VRCC # 5258
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Hook#3287
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« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2016, 04:18:45 AM » |
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First, thanks to everyone for taking the time to help out. I have a post on the general board about this very issue. Look VERY closely at the 4 relays ahead of the battery box. Mine had a bit of corrosion on the male tabs in the relay. Also some loose connections in the red pug from the starter switch to the loom-the 9 pin pug. My brother-da prez-spent about 6 hours chasing circuits on my I/S. All it takes is one of those connections in the red plug to not be connected. We had similar results as you-continuity tests voltage tests and test light all good and no start. On that red plug he pushed each individual contact from the backside to make sure it was connected. It will and it did drive ya nuts til you git er figured out. Hope this is of some help fer ya! About being stored in the N E salt air-REALLY have a good look at those connections. RIDE SAFE. O2S, Thanks, Ross sent me a PM last night, but it was too close to bed time and I was spent. I PM'd back and we've got a 3:00 pm appointment today for a phone discussion. Have you located the Neutral Diode? It's actually two diodes in a single package. One is for the neutral light but the other is needed to pass voltage to the starter relay. I can't tell you where it is 'cause I don't know. I suspect it's behind the coolant overflow tank. Obviously just a guess, and I've not heard of one failing, but it could be corrosion on the terminals.
I'll look into that. O2S may be on to something there. You did say you loosened the center panel and moved out. One of the relay connections might have worked loose.
I believe I've checked them all. I replaced the Start Switch Relay and the Bank Angle Relay. Things needed for the starter solenoid to go click... - Starter button (obviously... ) - Gear position (neutral switch) - Kickstand switch (typically only if in gear or neutral switch is bad) - Clutch lever switch - Run switch (red switch on handlebar... "Run/Stop" switch) - Tip-over sensor ... ... ... Can't think of any more at the moment... Would have to dig up the wiring diagram to know if I'm missing anything. You may have to disconnect and check each one with an ohm meter, one by one. Been there before... I feel your pain. Kind-a like finding a needle in a hay stack. Good luck!!! I've checked everything on you're list except the Bank Angle Sensor. I found a previous post on how to isolate it and will try that. A couple of thoughts here.
Since you did not get continuity from the Green/Red wire to ground in the first test, and you did get 12vdc at the Yellow/Red wire in the next test, that might indicate that you have multiple wiring problems.
The Starter Relay is energized by two wires:
1. Green/Red wire at the Starter Relay. This is the ground for the relay.
2. The Yellow/Red wire at the Starter Relay. This is the +12vdc signal from the Starter Button.
The ground for the starter relay comes from 2 sources.
1. Anytime the Neutral Switch is in the neutral position.
or if in gear,
2. Clutch Lever Switch with the lever pulled in with the Sidestand Switch with sidestand up.
With one of the above conditions met, pressing the Starter Button applies +12vdc to the Starter Relay through the Yellow/Red wire at the Starter Relay connector and energizes the relay.
You should also have +12vdc (with the key on) at the Red wire in the connector at the top of the Starter Relay.
I do not think it is the Neutral Diode (located in the fuse panel). The ICM has a line that shuts down the engine when it looses a ground, I.E. when the sidestand goes down. The diode feeds the neutral switch ground through it so that then the bike is in neutral with the sidestand down it does not kill the engine. It allows the sidestand to be down as long as the bike is in neutral. This is a different ground circuit from the one discussed above.
Actually, I had 0 vdc on the test of the Yellow/Red line at the Starter Relay. I can't remember if I had 12vdc at the red wire with the key on, I'll recheck that. You indicated you jumped the start relay and the engine turned over......does the engine run OK with no misses etc. I'm thinking you still have a start button issue.....
I never started it, I was just checking if I had juice or not. Can't do it at present cause the tank is off. I'm kinda sure what Ross is going to tell me in our appointment this afternoon, I've got to go thru each and every connector, wire, ground checking for continuity and cleaning. Got to go out for a couple cans of electric contact cleaner. It's a very nice day here, and I'm a lucky man as I have several Valks and 2 are running well (probably just jinxed myself) so at least I'll get a ride in.  TBC |
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indybobm
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« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2016, 05:56:36 AM » |
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When you check for voltage at the Yellow/Red wire, where are you putting the negative lead? Is it a good solid ground (battery negative post) or where you using the Green/Red wire that did not have continuity to ground? The Start Button has to be depressed to get the voltage.
The voltage at the Yellow/Red wire comes from the Battery, through the Starter Relay (Red Wire at the connector), through the Ignition Switch, 10 amp Ignition fuse, the Bank Angle Sensor Relay (requires that the Bank Angle Sensor is not triped and connected properly, Ignition Stop Switch, Start Button, and finally the Starter Relay. There are many connections and junctions (splices) in that path.
Does the Neutral light come on when it is in Neutral? I think that you said that the ‘S’ light comes on when the sidestand is down. There are two parts to the Sidestand Switch. When it is down, One section activates the light. When it is up is, it supplies one of the grounds to the Green/Red wire through the Clutch Lever Switch when the lever is pulled.
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« Last Edit: May 10, 2016, 06:02:02 AM by indybobm »
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So many roads, so little time
VRCC # 5258
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old2soon
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« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2016, 08:54:07 AM » |
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da prez and I had a LOT of help from other board members who gave freely of advice and in all cases-time. Couple of the calls were-lengthy-and that's being polite!  We as a club have at our fingertips a wealth of knowledge that the dealer just does NOT have. And I've found out-are MORE than willing to share. Most anything that goes wrong with these beasts of ours-someone somewhere-has already been thru it and has the answer or the answer is already in the archives. We are blessed here with a damn fine group of WRENCHES. You would be surprised zackly WHAT happens when you offer yer tech an icy cold adult beverage! RIDE SAFE. |
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Today is the tommorow you worried about yesterday. If at first you don't succeed screw it-save it for nite check. 1964 1968 U S Navy. Two cruises off Nam.
VRCCDS0240 2012 GL1800 Gold Wing Motor Trike conversion
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garyheskett All 49 x 3 st.louis
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« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2016, 11:05:21 AM » |
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I once placed a air compressor for a horn in front of the battery box. To make a long story short, I had to replace #14 (starter relay) on the wire harness diagram. When I put the air compressor in, I knocked #14 off its mount and it fell down some and eventually got water in it, and then the bike would not start. Took a while to find that. Replaced it with a part from Napa way cheaper than the Honda part.
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Rio Wil
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« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2016, 03:40:17 PM » |
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The question about does the engine run perfectly was intended to determine if all other electrical systems were functional and if the problem was solely one of the starting circuit.
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Hook#3287
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« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2016, 11:37:38 AM » |
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BANK ANGLE SENSOR!!! I hooked a jumper from the white to the black/green wire at the bank angle relay connection, push the start button and viola! Starter turned.  This after all the bull crap previously mentioned, talking with Ross "Da Prez" (thanks for taking the time Ross) and checking continuity at every pronged connector on the bike. Just before calling Ross again, cause I couldn't find the taped connector he told me to exam, I remembered I hadn't ruled out a bad angle sensor. Do those things just go bad?  . This bike hasn't been on its side since I've owned it and I'm pretty sure just moving the middle cover up a little didn't trigger it. Aren't they supposed to reset anyways? Did I mention how much I hate electrical issues  http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,83533.0.htmlAlso thanks to WintrSol for his response in the above post. Oh well, off to my friendly Honda parts web site. |
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Bighead
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« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2016, 01:21:36 PM » |
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Hey at least you know all the connections are good Sorry couldn't help myself  Glad you got it figured out before you did something bad to the phat girl. |
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1997 Bumble Bee
1999 Interstate (sold)
2016 Wing
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The emperor has no clothes
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« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2016, 02:43:54 PM » |
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Damn ! I know it isn't much consolation but your trials and tribulations will help somebody in the future.  |
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Crush
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« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2016, 04:30:53 PM » |
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BANK ANGLE SENSOR!!! I hooked a jumper from the white to the black/green wire at the bank angle relay connection, push the start button and viola! Starter turned. This after all the bull crap previously mentioned, talking with Ross "Da Prez" (thanks for taking the time Ross) and checking continuity at every pronged connector on the bike. Just before calling Ross again, cause I couldn't find the taped connector he told me to exam, I remembered I hadn't ruled out a bad angle sensor. Do those things just go bad? . This bike hasn't been on its side since I've owned it and I'm pretty sure just moving the middle cover up a little didn't trigger it. Aren't they supposed to reset anyways? Did I mention how much I hate electrical issues http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,83533.0.htmlAlso thanks to WintrSol for his response in the above post. Oh well, off to my friendly Honda parts web site. Tryturning kill switch on and off. My buddy dropped his CB1100, It wouldnt fire but turned over fine. I told him to try the kill switch. he switched it off then back on again and it fired right up. |
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Hook#3287
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« Reply #23 on: May 15, 2016, 07:12:01 PM » |
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Well, turns out my  mechanic caused the problem. Me  The wire from the sensor was cut. I must have nicked it while drilling a hole to mount my shock air fill valve in January. Obviously, I did more than just move the center cover, like I remember.  Got the solder gun out and with a heat shrink and tape, fixed it up. At least I didn't have to buy a new one. Works good. Hey at least you know all the connections are good Sorry couldn't help myself Glad you got it figured out before you did something bad to the phat girl. Yeah, I definitely have better knowledge and understanding of the wiring system on a Tourer. Damn ! I know it isn't much consolation but your trials and tribulations will help somebody in the future. Rob, you're right , it isn't much consolation . My advice is "don't do stupid $hit" |
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The emperor has no clothes
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« Reply #24 on: May 15, 2016, 07:20:15 PM » |
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Well, turns out my mechanic caused the problem. Me The wire from the sensor was cut. I must have nicked it while drilling a hole to mount my shock air fill valve in January. Obviously, I did more than just move the center cover, like I remember. Got the solder gun out and with a heat shrink and tape, fixed it up. At least I didn't have to buy a new one. Works good. Hey at least you know all the connections are good Sorry couldn't help myself Glad you got it figured out before you did something bad to the phat girl. Yeah, I definitely have better knowledge and understanding of the wiring system on a Tourer. Damn ! I know it isn't much consolation but your trials and tribulations will help somebody in the future. Rob, you're right , it isn't much consolation . My advice is "don't do stupid $hit" Bill, it's way too late for that. Seems I do something stupid on a regular basis these days. Glad you got her fixed up. Electrical stuff can be extremely frustrating.  |
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