Help! with dead cylinder...... Update.

[pedroski]

G'day to Everyone!

My 1998 Valky is still sick!

Stripped bike down, cleaned and lubricated everything, overhauled the carbs, fresh fuel and synchronized carbs.

I am still stock with #35 Slow jets and #78 Main jets.

When I picked her up she was running rough as guts, I thought a good birthday all over and a carbie overhaul will fix it.

Wrong!    


I have been fault finding for the past couple of days (amongst other things) and paying much more attention to what is happening.

Removed the front cover and double checked the timing belt synchronization - All good  

Removed rocker covers and checked valve clearance, #3 inlet and #2 exhaust were too tight - All good now  

I have discovered that #3 exhaust is stone cold until heat travels from the other pipes - Not good  

Swapped a #1 & #3 spark plugs around - No change    

Swapped #5 & #3 plug leads about (both ends) - No change    

Swapped #3 & #4 coil with a spare from my GL-1500 - No change    

Drained #3 carb to see if there is fuel in there -  All good  


What next  ???

I am thinking of the ignition generators or pulse wheel, but I recon that if they were faulty ignition would be out of whack on all cylinders?

This just leaves the "Black Box"        anyone know how to check one except for swapping one out?

Have I missed something?


I have learnt some things like you don't have to drain the radiator and remove the radiator hose to remove the timing cover (after doing it twice)   :lol:

I also do not have a laser heat gun, just now shiny burnt fingertips    


Happy and Safe Riding to Everyone,
Regards Peter.

[Blackduck]

Compression test.
I am in Safety Bay if you need a second opinion and or extra gear to test and check.
Cheers Steve

[Patrick]

It doesn't sound to me as though you have an ignition problem.

I agree with the compression test. First things first. We need to know whether the insides of the holes are in good shape before going any further.

I'm suspecting a carb low circuit issue, but, the cylinder checks come first.

[Hook#3287]

carbie overhaul

What did you do here?   Did you clean or replace the jets?

I'm suspecting a carb low circuit issue, but, the cylinder checks come first.

I'm with Patrick on this.

As my old Honda service manager would walk around saying, "Won't start, Spark or Gas" Things were simpler back then, the biggest motor Honda made was the 750/4.

Pull the plug and ground it too see if your getting spark.  That's the easiest way to check spark.

You can check the compression by putting the end of your finger in the plug hole and hitting the start button.  That will tell whether you've got compression or not. Then you can check the amount with a gauge.

If after running it and if it's a spark issue, the plug should be wet when you pull it.  If not, you've probably got a "carbie"  issue. 

[Michvalk]

Is the plug foweled with fuel? If it's not, you have a carb problem. 

[signart]

Agree with above. You did all that without determining if you have spark? You don't even have to pull the plug from 3, just pull the wire and ground an extra known good plug.

[Attic Rat]

Sounds to me like you have a carb body still plugged up I have seen this many times. Even after a carb O/H they are hard to get clean that is why I went to an ultra sonic cleaner for the carbs and that ended that problem

[pedroski]

Still struggling 

Yes the #3 plug was wet when I removed it yesterday, thus I discounted fuel.

Don't have a compression tester so I made up one out of a busted foot pump, salvaged brass fittings and a tyre tube nipple.
#1 = 85 psi
#3 = 95 psi
#5 = 110 psi
Not sure of the accuracy of the Ciwanese gauge?

Tried the spare spark plug trick this morning and it sparks

Drained #3 bowl via the drain port, turned the fuel back on, put a vacuum on the petcock and fuel ran out the drain hose.

I thought that maybe I assembled the float valve incorrectly so there is very little fuel in the bowl, but No, it is spot on.

Removed the carbies, stripped #3 carefully, but all is ok 


Whilst the carbs are off I might pull all the plugs again set them up to see if they all spark with the same veracity.

I cleaned each carb body for at least an hour in my 6L ultrasonic bath, will probably strip #3 down again and give it a few hours buzzing in there with some detergent to assist.


I am getting depressed and going to give it a break now, go indoors and watch a funny movie.

Happy and Safe Riding to Everyone, Peter,

[signart]

Hang in there man, there are some good techs here that are willing to help. Just stay with it and give info like above, the guys here don't quit you.

[Romeo]

I think we maybe chasing the same problem. See my post above. My bike sounds as if its half engine, half air compressor. And it also sounds as if it is constantly lugging, lots of engine noise, and it is running like crap.

[Black Dog]

Take Blackduck up on his offer...  Then, eliminate the ICM possibility by swapping with the one from his bike.  The swap is easy, and will tell you if there is an issue with yours.

I had a similar issue, years ago, and tried everything like you, but when I tried a different ICM, the bike ran like it should.

Good luck!

Black Dog

[pedroski]

G'day to Everyone,

and thanks for the encouragement 

I have contacted "Blackduck" and taken up his generous offer of help, timing is the issue now as I fly up north to work Monday morning.

I am convinced that I have a series of little problems all adding up to one big one.

I was disappointed with performance of the Valky when I first picked her up, but knew with a clean up and a tickle she would roar like new again.

I have a 1988 GL-1500 and the power output on her is much greater even with all that Tupperware and other gadgets bolted on.

When I first got the GL-1500 she ran like a pig, 4 months of cleaning, lubricating and replacing perished and hardened rubber components, gaskets and "O" rings, a new set of spark plugs and she was smooth as!

Rode her around for a couple of months, did a couple of thousand Kms on her then gave her a service, dropped all the oils and pulled the spark plugs.  #3 & $4 were brand new, never been fired once, on a little investigation #3 plug wire was open circuit.   Bought a complete set of coils and leads off e-Bay, fitted the naughty lead and she took off like a rocket on all 6 cylinders.

So I am in the same opinion as "Romeo" that my Valky is half engine and half compressor. 

(Not for long thought ... )

Happy and Safe riding to Everyone, Peter.

[Firefighter]

Don't know if your compression gauge is correct, but your compression numbers are too far apart, and not high enough. The engine cannot run right if those numbers are correct. Head gasket? Bad valve? Plugged exhaust? Bad cylinder or rings? Inaccurate compression gauge?

I would buy a cheap gauge or borrow one and make sure. Book says 171 psi at 400 rpm.

Best of luck, let us know.

[pedroski]

G'day to All,

Back in Telfer again for 8 days of slavery 

Pulled all plugs, clamped them down with bulldog clips and cranked her over, sparks on all plugs 

Ultrasonic cleaned #3 carb body, found nothing wrong 

Carefully put her all back together and kicked her in the guts.   #3 exhaust instantly got warm 

But now #2 is only getting a bit above warm 


My conclusion is that on first assembly I used a smear of rubber grease to assist with "O" ring fitting, maybe a clump of this rubber grease got stuck in a jet orifice, and another in #2 carb at the moment.  Hoping that this will dissolve in time as I don't want to remove the carbs again.

as to the low compression, I guess that I should have had the throttle wide open whilst performing the test, I didn't it was at idle.

Have to put the rest of the bike and covers back on for a full test next break. 

Happy & Safe Riding to Everyone, Peter.

[falconbrother]

These kinds of bugs are hard to find when you have tried everything, or so it seems.  Even if you had a mild intake leak it should fire at higher rpms.  Usually runs like crap at the low end, unless you have a big leak.  If I feel really good about the fuel air then I start looking for electrical issues.  My buddy broke down 2300 miles from home on his 1500 goldwing and rented a Uhaul to drive his bike home.  Turned out to be a bad plug wire.  He was sure that it was something serious.  Was not happy when he got home to find it was something so simple. 

[indybobm]

Have you sync'd them after you got them back on the bike?

[pedroski]

G'day to Everyone! 

First day home yesterday, put her back together and took her for a run.

Took her a while to run smooth and idle, (5 Minutes) hesitates, burps, hiccups, farts and pops until I reach about 2500 rpm, then she goes, but with some vibrations.

Definitely not as smooth as my 88 GL-1500 ............ Yet!

Guess a set of #38 slow jets are in order, will chase a set up on e-bay today, along with a set of exhaust gaskets as mine have been crushed to their limits and she still hisses exhaust gasses.

In the mean time I will continue to rebuild the two GL-1000's that I have been working on for over 2 & 1/2 years now.


Happy & Safe Riding to Everyone, Peter.

[Patrick]

Sounds like you still have a low speed circuit issue. When you change the low jets just clean the remainder of the passages.

[pedroski]

With many thanks to Steve "Blackduck"

He rode all the way up to my place yesterday morning.

we swapped out the ignition module with a known working one ........ No difference .... Good as this corners my problems, and he also assisted me with a set of #38 slow jets.

Top Man! 

The carbs are out again and will get a massive ultrasonic clean and thorough check of all passageways that I can find.

My home made compression tester made out of an old tyre pump may not be accurate at all, it goes up to 160 psi.

I did a compression check with all the carbs and spark plugs removed and got 100~110 psi in all cylinders, so at least they are all even.

Found a set of exhaust gaskets that I bought for the GoldWing but I obviously did not use them, but I will now 

Happy & Safe Riding to All, Peter.

[pedroski]

G'day to Everyone!   

Weekend over and I am back at work for the week.

Managed to Ultrasonically clean each carbie for 3 hours each blowing the hell out of them half hourly,  Fitted the #38 Slow jets and cut out the riveted section in the lid of the air box (can put it back if needed), also fitted new exhaust Copper gaskets.

I noticed that the inner bolts (non stock) that hold the intake tubes down were 5mm longer than the stock ones, I then tried them and found that they bottomed out in their holes at the same height as the intake tube flange, I just put a washer under each bolt to get her going (will replace them later)

Kicked her in the guts and she purred away smoothly.   Took her for a run and she was great!

Stopped off to see Mum for an hour or so, then took off for another ride down the freeway.

After the stop and cool down she started to pop a little on deceleration (tightening of gaskets required ?)  still running smooth as, but when I gave her a burst to flush out the cob webs from standstill to 100 Kmh entering the freeway she started to break down badly.

I guess playing with different sized main jets will solve this issue.

Happy & Safe Riding to Everyone, Peter.

[Blackduck]

Peter,
Glad to hear your having some success, you will be looking at 100/105 mains to cover the bit missing from the air box.
Think I may have some 102's in the collection
Cheers Steve

[Michvalk]

Put the part you took off the airbox back on, and you will probably cure the last problem. The Valk engine doesn't take well to airbox mods. Usually end up buying a new airbox to fix most problems. I have heard of some getting the problems fixed with jetting, but, no improvements in performance noted. Up to you, but, might just fix the last problems

[Patrick]

Put the part you took off the airbox back on, and you will probably cure the last problem. The Valk engine doesn't take well to airbox mods. Usually end up buying a new airbox to fix most problems. I have heard of some getting the problems fixed with jetting, but, no improvements in performance noted. Up to you, but, might just fix the last problems

Yep !

[pedroski]

Thanks Guys for the suggestions. 

It was silly of me to do two changes at a time 

I will put the cut out section back into the air box on my return home, it will be easy to do, then try her out.

I have bought a set of main jets on e-bay so I can start to play with them over the next few months.

Happy and Safe Riding to Everyone, Peter.

[Blackduck]

I just love blanket comments on "don't touch the airbox"
Unless you have actually done any mods please don't post any hearsay.
Yes airbox mods will require jetting and a lot of trial and error.
There are gains to be made both in power and economy.

Search FactoryPro and see the reference to Steve Brown modified airbox. Never seen one but would like to know who has. FactoryPro obviously think there are gains to be made.

Myself I have been running a modded airbox for many years, current version for 5 years so don't tell me they do not work.

As I have said before unless you have time and patience leave them alone but it is not that hard to improve the breathing

[Cracker Jack]

I just love blanket comments on "don't touch the airbox"
Unless you have actually done any mods please don't post any hearsay.
Yes airbox mods will require jetting and a lot of trial and error.
There are gains to be made both in power and economy.

Search FactoryPro and see the reference to Steve Brown modified airbox. Never seen one but would like to know who has. FactoryPro obviously think there are gains to be made.

Myself I have been running a modded airbox for many years, current version for 5 years so don't tell me they do not work.

As I have said before unless you have time and patience leave them alone but it is not that hard to improve the breathing

"Unless you have actually done any mods please don't post any hearsay."

I suspect most of what is posted on this and other boards is "hearsay" and simply repeats what others have written previously. "Make sure you jump from a non running car, a car alternator is too big for the motorcycle battery". My car alternator has a voltage regulator/ rectifier built in.  I don't mind if you follow those instructions and they won't hurt your bike or bike battery. I have jumped from a running car most all my fairly long life and never had a problem doing so. Who knows, I might have a problem the next time I try it.

If posters only posted what they know based on actual experience, this (and other) boards would be substantially reduced in size/traffic.

[pedroski]

Thanks for all the comments and help.

"Blackduck" has helped me out with a set of #38 slow jets and the contents of a "Factory Pro Tuning" kit.

In this kit there is a good read up on what to do with your carbs, here is a section of it that pertains to me as I have a 6>6 Cobra exhaust.   It is also stated that this is a starting point.

Exhaust ~ Cobra 6>6 w/baffles.
Air Filter ~ K&N w/o pre-filter & no intake baffle.
Main Jet ~ All cyls #115
Needle Pos ~ /3
Pilot Jet ~ #38
Fuel Screw ~ 2.0x

Exhaust ~ Cobra 6>6 w/baffles.
Air Filter ~ Stock air filter.
Main Jet ~ fr, #98, mid, rr, #100
Needle Pos ~ fr, /4, mid, rr, /3
Pilot Jet ~ #38
Fuel Screw ~ 2.0x

I also have a K&N air filter but with the pre-filter, the intake baffle removed and I have doubled the length of my exhaust baffles.

I will play with my machine and get to know her intimately.

I am not after improved performance, just reasonable mileage and smooth action and response to throttle control.

I state what I am doing as I go along as it just may help others


Happy and Safe Riding to Everyone
Peter.

[pedroski]

G'day to Everyone! 

Well I have changed out my standard #78 main jets for #88 main jets this week resulting in a definite improvement.

She still breaks down when giving her stick from traffic lights or just overtaking, but not as bad as before so I am on the right track.

I have ordered some more main jets and will change them out next break (if they arrive in time).

All this is giving me an intimate relationship with my machine, things are getting easier and I am learning what order to take things off her and what order to put them back on.

before I tore her down I filled her up, rode 198 kms then drained the tank, this completely filled a 10L jerry can.  Correct me if I am wrong but I believe my Valky has a 20L tank, thus I used 10L to do 198kms.

Therefore;
10L = 198km
1L = 19.8km
or
46.6 mpg

which I think is too good and the result of running too lean.

I enjoy working on my machines as much as riding them.  I should have my 76 GL-1000 with a sidecar on the road this summer (your winter) I have spent just under 3 years re-building her.

Happy and Safe Riding to Everyone, peter.

[pedroski]

G'day to Everyone! 

I am getting much quicker removing the carbs and putting them back in again.

I now have #98 main jets and 2 & 1/2 turns on the mixture screw.

she is running a whole lot better but still feels as if she is running out of fuel cruising down the freeway at 100 kmh.  No breaking down on full throttle now.

I am getting 18.1 kpl (42.6 mpg) on her,  My 88 GL-1500 gets an average of 16.5 kpl (38.9 mpg)

I will be putting in a set of #108's in when the get here as I want to go past the required target, then ease back at one main jet size at a time until she is sweet 

Happy and Safe Riding to Everyone, Peter.

[hukmut]

OK. So now that you are OK with r and r of the carbs, not once did I read anywhere that you changed out

 the float needles. That is one of the first things that was done on mine. Those little springs have done

their duty for many a mile and they do get soft and tired. SOME think that they can be part of the

Dreaded Hydrolock. Of course, some blame it on the fuel petcock.

Good luck, and ride safe.

[pedroski]

You are very right "hukmut"

The needles looked ok, but now I have much doubt so a new set is in order ASAP.

I have checked them out on e-bay and come in varying prices, Honda being the most pricey.

Tourmax were the cheapest, then K&L.

I kind of reckon the to stick with Mother Honda would be the best way to go, so I will check with the local Honda dealer for pricing, then order a set.

Thanks for the advice that I had overlooked.

Happy & safe Riding, Peter.

[98valk]

G'day to Everyone! 

I am getting much quicker removing the carbs and putting them back in again.

I now have #98 main jets and 2 & 1/2 turns on the mixture screw.

she is running a whole lot better but still feels as if she is running out of fuel cruising down the freeway at 100 kmh.  No breaking down on full throttle now.

I am getting 18.1 kpl (42.6 mpg) on her,  My 88 GL-1500 gets an average of 16.5 kpl (38.9 mpg)

I will be putting in a set of #108's in when the get here as I want to go past the required target, then ease back at one main jet size at a time until she is sweet 

Happy and Safe Riding to Everyone, Peter.

if u have zero air-box mods and OEM exhaust, 108 MJs will be much too rich. It will make less power.

[pedroski]

I do have mods,

Removed the baffles in the air box and a Cobra 6 into 6 exhaust with extended baffles.

there is nothing like adding your own touches to your machine to personalize her.

I enjoy working on her as much as I do riding her down the freeway.

Happy n Safe Riding, peter.

[pedroski]

G'day to Everyone 

I have peace of mind now that I have fitted a set of new float needles, but soiled my shorts when paying $175.20 for them 

Also fitted the #108 main jets in her that arrived the other day with maybe a slight improvement on power over the #98's, she is getting 16.7 kpl (39.2 mpg) now which is just a little better than my 88 GL-1500.

I am now going to replace the diaphragm springs with the IS ones (I have already purchased a set of new ones) and hopefully throttle response improves a bit.

It is freezing here, well for me anyway as I work up north in Telfer and use to 46 deg C temperatures, it is also raining and I don't like getting soaked anymore, plus the wet roads seem to bring out all the idiots, you see all the morons in their high powered cages spinning out of control, like Man I could spin the wheels in the wet in my old 1962 VW Beetle when she was alive (many moons ago now).

Happy & Safe Riding to Everyone, Peter.