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pancho
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« on: November 05, 2016, 06:47:03 PM » |
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I opened up the carbs today to replace the needle valves and clean up the slow jets. These are the valves that I removed... they look like the aftermarket ones that I replaced them with... I thought that the OE valves were made out of brass. Was I wrong? do these look like they could be original equipment? I got my bike almost four years ago with 38K miles on it, but I didn't think it had ever been messed with, just neglected for several years... what do you think?  I have a dental ultrasonic scaler that I used to clean up the slow jets with berrymans B12 for a solvent, and have this scope so I could clearly see the bore inside the jets for cleanliness.  Even with the ultrasonic scaler which can direct an ultrasonic modulated stream up into the jets orifice, it still took a couple of times until the jets were perfectly clear. So, I don't think I would trust an ultrasonic bath to clean the slow jets effectively if I don't have a scope to look. If you suspect slow jet problems, clogging etc. it may be best to bite the bullet and spend the $36 on new jets and be done with it. I noticed that all the bowls on the left side were holding about 25cc more fuel than the ones on the right. (I drained and measured each separately to check before I turned them over and opened them up) I had the right 1,3,5 pilot screws almost a full turn out further than the left 2,4,6 ones to get the bike to idle and burn (plug condition) correctly, I had suspected the needle valves were the cause of this, and the amount of fuel I found in the bowls seems to confirm the idea that I had a needle valve problem. After todays work, I set all the pilot screws back to 2 1/2 out for a starting place,, the idle sounds great. I will take a ride tomorrow and see what I have. |
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The most expensive things you will purchase, are those things you would not have needed if you had listened and obeyed.
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Crackerborn
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« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2016, 10:04:00 PM » |
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That is OEM needle valves, no brass except the jets and pilot screws. I had access to a transmission boiler when I did my carbs. Anything not metal was gone when they came out of that pressure cooker. This winter I will be doing it again to the new (to me) IS and hoping the PO didn't use the Cobra carb kit when he added the Cobra 6-6 pipes since they are coming off.
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Life is about the ride, not the destination. 97 Valkyrie Tour 99 Valkyrie Interstate  |
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Ricky-D
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« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2016, 05:27:16 AM » |
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I noticed that all the bowls on the left side were holding about 25cc more fuel than the ones on the right. (I drained and measured each separately to check before I turned them over and opened them up) I had the right 1,3,5 pilot screws almost a full turn out further than the left 2,4,6 ones to get the bike to idle and burn (plug condition) correctly, I had suspected the needle valves were the cause of this, and the amount of fuel I found in the bowls seems to confirm the idea that I had a needle valve problem. After todays work, I set all the pilot screws back to 2 1/2 out for a starting place,, the idle sounds great. I will take a ride tomorrow and see what I have. It sounds to me that you did the (original) idle screw adjustment while the bike was on the side stand and additionally the fuel level in the carburetors is going to be affected if the bike is on the side stand. Since the bike normally runs in an upright position all adjustments and measurements should be made/taken with the bike upright. |
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2000_Valkyrie_Interstate
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pancho
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« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2016, 02:57:12 PM » |
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Nice try Ricky-D, but no cigar!! all adjustments are done with the bike in an upright position,,, every time I play with the carbs,, which seems to be every few months. I propose that the difference in the fuel amount in each bank was because of 19 years of the bike being leaned onto the side stand with the bowls full and completely compressing the springs in the left while taking the tension off the ones in the right, had weakened the springs in the needle valves in the left bank,,,, which was causing the left bank to hold a different amount of fuel from the right, which was causing fuel ratio balancing problems which I have noticed since I got the bike, probably a common problem but under the radar. I rode today without fine tuning the pilot screws, and it is smooth as silk , better than it has ever been. I believe the fuel mileage will go up substantially from the 31.8 which has been the standard when the carbs were tuned for the best running condition. I'll fine tune the carbs this week and check the sync. I'm a happy camper,, the bike has always run great, but now it runs as fine as I always knew it could. WooHoo  |
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The most expensive things you will purchase, are those things you would not have needed if you had listened and obeyed.
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pancho
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« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2016, 11:05:24 AM » |
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Wadda you think Ricky?? any of that sound plausible?
I did set up a triple balance scale this morning with a dial indicator mount to hold the old needle valves, and measured the springs when they first started to compress, and when they were fully compressed. SInce I did not mark which ones came from which carb, and did not measure the new ones before I installed them, the data is useless,, but, two of them took substantially more force to start to compress the springs, 27 grams + or - vs. 23 grams,,, (those little boogers are stiffer than I suspected), and more force to fully compress them, but only two.. I messed up by not thinking this through before I started.
Bob, appreciate the info, but what I was pointing out was that under most circumstances, for most I believe it is probably better to just replace the slow jets. It's enlightening to have a large clear view of the orifice, and I was surprised at how tenacious some of the contaminant was even with an ultrasonic cleaning device.
What I do know, my bike is running great,, much smoother and easier going through the RPM range. I'm interested to see what mileage I get out of this tank,, tied up, so it will be a couple of days.
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The most expensive things you will purchase, are those things you would not have needed if you had listened and obeyed.
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BonS
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« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2016, 03:49:56 PM » |
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If I recall correctly the K&L needle springs are in the range of 42 grams. And I too measured 27 or so grams for the OEM's.
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98valk
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« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2016, 04:59:34 PM » |
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Wadda you think Ricky?? any of that sound plausible?
not RD, however, no not plausible, unless u tried to run the carbs dry and then let it sit for 19 yrs. there is more fuel in the left bank than the right when running dry due to the longer feed hose. |
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1998 Std/Tourer, 2007 DR200SE, 1981 CB900C 10speed
1973 Duster 340 4-speed rare A/C, 2001 F250 4x4 7.3L, 6sp
"Our Constitution was made only for a Moral and Religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the goverment of any other."
John Adams 10/11/1798
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Ricky-D
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« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2016, 06:34:02 AM » |
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Ever since that fellow posted about a cure for hydrolock (about two years ago) and it involved the spring inside the needle valve, I've been amazed how so many individuals have jumped on that bandwagon. To me, it's voodoo mechanics, and ridiculous to the extreme. The only part of the needle that goes bad is the little rubber tip, if that goes bad at all. Grasping at straws is how I see it. I feel no need to further explain since the premise of the argument is patently wrong.
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2000_Valkyrie_Interstate
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lljjmm
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« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2016, 07:32:05 AM » |
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Ok then, which is the preferred "OEM" or the "K+L" ?
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pancho
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« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2016, 10:12:14 AM » |
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Ever since that fellow posted about a cure for hydrolock (about two years ago) and it involved the spring inside the needle valve, I've been amazed how so many individuals have jumped on that bandwagon. To me, it's voodoo mechanics, and ridiculous to the extreme. The only part of the needle that goes bad is the little rubber tip, if that goes bad at all. Grasping at straws is how I see it. I feel no need to further explain since the premise of the argument is patently wrong.
***
I don't know....... the fact that two of the needle valves that were removed compress at 27 grams + or - and the other four compress at 23 grams suggests to me that they do go bad. |
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The most expensive things you will purchase, are those things you would not have needed if you had listened and obeyed.
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BonS
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« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2016, 10:58:48 AM » |
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Ever since that fellow posted about a cure for hydrolock (about two years ago) and it involved the spring inside the needle valve, I've been amazed how so many individuals have jumped on that bandwagon. To me, it's voodoo mechanics, and ridiculous to the extreme. The only part of the needle that goes bad is the little rubber tip, if that goes bad at all. Grasping at straws is how I see it. I feel no need to further explain since the premise of the argument is patently wrong.
***
I struggle to see where you're coming from on this Ricky-D. The needle valve and seat have many failure modes. Yes, a bad deformed tip is one of them, a hardened tip is another, a gummed up spring and pin is another, a corroded or broken spring is another and a weak spring is another. In addition to the needle the needle seat must be clean and smooth. If the needle spring is of insufficient strength to press the needle into the seat to offset the fuel pressure column above it then the bowl may overflow. In straight engineering terms the force generated by the compression of the spring is expressed as F=kx where F is force, X is compression distance and k is the spring constant. When new, Honda designed the force generated by the spring to be in excess of the weight of the fuel column. As the rubber hardens and/or the springs weaken due to corrosion, gum or fatigue then the balance of forces necessary to hold back the fuel is no longer what was engineered by mother Honda. The float can only rise until it hits the top of the bowl so it can only move "x" just so far. To restore proper operation the carb must be clean, the float seat smooth and clean, the viton tip of the float needle must be close to the original hardness (durometer) and the spring constant "k" must be near to (slightly greater is okay) than the original. It's not just a coincidence that most all carburetor rebuild kits include a float needle and seat in them. These parts do need to be refreshed from time-to-time. With today's lousy gas, and many bikes just sitting too much, these problems manifest themselves frequently. |
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98valk
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« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2016, 12:05:55 PM » |
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Ever since that fellow posted about a cure for hydrolock (about two years ago) and it involved the spring inside the needle valve, I've been amazed how so many individuals have jumped on that bandwagon. To me, it's voodoo mechanics, and ridiculous to the extreme. The only part of the needle that goes bad is the little rubber tip, if that goes bad at all. Grasping at straws is how I see it. I feel no need to further explain since the premise of the argument is patently wrong.
***
I don't know....... the fact that two of the needle valves that were removed compress at 27 grams + or - and the other four compress at 23 grams suggests to me that they do go bad. what is the OEM minimum spec for grams? might be fine at 23. |
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1998 Std/Tourer, 2007 DR200SE, 1981 CB900C 10speed
1973 Duster 340 4-speed rare A/C, 2001 F250 4x4 7.3L, 6sp
"Our Constitution was made only for a Moral and Religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the goverment of any other."
John Adams 10/11/1798
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98valk
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« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2016, 12:12:15 PM » |
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Ok then, which is the preferred "OEM" or the "K+L" ?
interesting read, both at todays stds should be ok. http://www.randakksblog.com/more-problems-with-aftermarket-float-valves/ |
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1998 Std/Tourer, 2007 DR200SE, 1981 CB900C 10speed
1973 Duster 340 4-speed rare A/C, 2001 F250 4x4 7.3L, 6sp
"Our Constitution was made only for a Moral and Religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the goverment of any other."
John Adams 10/11/1798
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Ricky-D
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« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2016, 01:30:03 PM » |
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Although all of the testing of the springs and forces can be satisfying I don’t think it’s very relevant to the discussion of hydrolock. The force of the gasoline upon the valve is infinitesimal when observed in the light of the small diameter of the orifice of the needle valve. And the requirement of need for the correct amount of fuel to be in the float bowl would necessarily demand a fixed length of needle thereby making the need of a spring unnecessary. All the spring has to do is to be of sufficient strength to lift the needle and block the fuel orifice with sufficient pressure to stop the flow of gasoline. Weight the needle assembly, add to that the force of the fuel head divided by the area of the needle orifice and you will see the result is quite a bit less than the force you determined for the compression of the spring. The spring has nothing to do with the fuel level in the float bowl unless it has failed. I’ve never heard of a failed float needle spring. Finally, if a spring were to fail, completely compress, the needle would still stop the fuel flow, although the level of fuel would be greater in the bowl. This is a failsafe designed into the carburetor assembly by the carburetor designer/manufacturer.
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2000_Valkyrie_Interstate
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BonS
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« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2016, 03:48:00 PM » |
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Although all of the testing of the springs and forces can be satisfying I don’t think it’s very relevant to the discussion of hydrolock. The force of the gasoline upon the valve is infinitesimal when observed in the light of the small diameter of the orifice of the needle valve. And the requirement of need for the correct amount of fuel to be in the float bowl would necessarily demand a fixed length of needle thereby making the need of a spring unnecessary. All the spring has to do is to be of sufficient strength to lift the needle and block the fuel orifice with sufficient pressure to stop the flow of gasoline. Weight the needle assembly, add to that the force of the fuel head divided by the area of the needle orifice and you will see the result is quite a bit less than the force you determined for the compression of the spring. The spring has nothing to do with the fuel level in the float bowl unless it has failed. I’ve never heard of a failed float needle spring. Finally, if a spring were to fail, completely compress, the needle would still stop the fuel flow, although the level of fuel would be greater in the bowl. This is a failsafe designed into the carburetor assembly by the carburetor designer/manufacturer.
***
I like your thinking Ricky-D. In a perfect world there would be a fail safe mechanism designed into every carburetor. That said, based upon the occurrence of hydrolock things aren't perfect. But, to your point, I closely examined a Valkyrie carburetor tonight to see if what you say holds water, or gasoline. I used a 0.004" shim and measured a gap between the float tang and the body of the float needle when the float has topped out on the carburetor body. Our carburetors are unusual as they're 45 degree angled bodies and that leaves very little room for float movement beyond normal operation and not enough room for the float to push the float needle body in the event the spring force or center pin don't get the job done of stopping fuel flow. |
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Roidfingers
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« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2016, 06:31:53 AM » |
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Well I don't know anything about all the grams and tension stuff you guys are talking about. I do know I just replaced my needle valves and I'm really glad I did. Not so much for the needles them selves but because of the rubber orings. All of mine were very brittle and none of them looked the same. Some thinner then the others, flatter and even out of round a little. Knowing this now, if anything , change out the oring if you are ever in there. My 2 cents.
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DK
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« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2016, 03:18:34 PM » |
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Ever since that fellow posted about a cure for hydrolock (about two years ago) and it involved the spring inside the needle valve, I've been amazed how so many individuals have jumped on that bandwagon. To me, it's voodoo mechanics, and ridiculous to the extreme. The only part of the needle that goes bad is the little rubber tip, if that goes bad at all. Grasping at straws is how I see it. I feel no need to further explain since the premise of the argument is patently wrong.
***
In straight engineering terms the force generated by the compression of the spring is expressed as F=kx where F is force, X is compression distance and k is the spring constant. When new, Honda designed the force generated by the spring to be in excess of the weight of the fuel column. Bon, Doesn't the computation as stated require a parameter of the orfice diameter? As in hydrolic cylinder power ratings: 3 psi acting on a 1" piston = power 3 psi acting on a 1' piston = a lot of power It seems the principle would be the same when dealing with the fluid column force acting against the needle valve? My particular interest is whether the +/- 3 1/2 psi pump pressure of my belly tank exceeds the needle valve design of the Valk carburetor? My guess is that 3 1/2 psi exceeds the column pressure. |
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Machinery has a mysterious soul and a mind of its own.
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Blackduck
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« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2016, 03:17:29 PM » |
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DK,
Heaviest specific gravity I found for gasoline was .77, with a rough guess of 1 1/2 foot of head on a full fuel tank the would give around .5 psi at the float valve.
Cheers Steve
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2001 Standard, 78 Goldwing, VRCC 21411
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BonS
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« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2016, 06:51:12 PM » |
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I'm not where I can measure the area of the Carb orifice but the calculation is easy where F =PA. The force on the needle is the fuel pressure times the needle orifice area. Adjust the units to grams to compare the spring force to the fuel pressure. (I'm in Korea so I'm out of commission for a few weeks.)
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Ricky-D
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« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2016, 11:21:58 AM » |
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I'm not where I can measure the area of the Carb orifice but the calculation is easy where F =PA. The force on the needle is the fuel pressure times the needle orifice area. Adjust the units to grams to compare the spring force to the fuel pressure. (I'm in Korea so I'm out of commission for a few weeks.)
Assuming an eighth of an inch orifice the head of fuel exhibits less that a 3 gram force needed to stop flow. add that to the weight of the needle and you'll have it. I know that needle doesn't weigh more than 10 grams. Still makes all the dither about float needles foolish and unnecessary in the discussion of hydrolock. *** |
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2000_Valkyrie_Interstate
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pancho
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« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2016, 04:09:45 PM » |
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The thread isn't about hydrolock Ricky,, It is about the possibility of weak springs leading to varying float bowl levels. I mentioned that the carbs in one bank on my bike had 25 CC or so more fuel in them than the other. At some point, I will drain the carbs again with the new needle valves for comparison.
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« Last Edit: November 12, 2016, 04:15:21 PM by pancho »
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The most expensive things you will purchase, are those things you would not have needed if you had listened and obeyed.
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DK
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« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2016, 05:30:00 PM » |
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I may be a bit off the thread subject except as to belly tanks but here goes:
From the foregoing posts, it looks like 3 1/2 psi is way too much for the design parameters of our carbs.
At the very least, the floats & needles need to be in good shape even more so.
It's all the more reason to convert it to gravity flow.
Am I correct in this?
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Machinery has a mysterious soul and a mind of its own.
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Blackduck
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« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2016, 05:47:33 PM » |
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DK,
Doubt there will be a problem, the needle design is not much different to any other carb including the old 1000 wings which had a fuel pump.
A lot of automotive fuel pumps put out more than 3.5 psi without any drama's.
I can go have a look, should have some Wing, Stromberg and SU units in the shed
Cheers Steve
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2001 Standard, 78 Goldwing, VRCC 21411
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Blackduck
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« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2016, 06:32:51 PM » |
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Trivia,
Stromberg orifice approx .065" and contact mark on needle .082"
SU, orifice .099" and contact mark .100"
Aisan (Landcruiser) orifice .085 approx and contact .072"
GL 1000 orifice approx .036" this appears to be some what tapered, contact mark .055"
Pretty hard to get accurate measurements.
Fuel pressure spec's for GL 1000, 2 psi @ 5000 rpm -2.3 psi at idle
Fuel pressure for the Aisan, 3.4-4.8 psi
If I remember correct SU's were around 3 psi
Cheers Steve
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2001 Standard, 78 Goldwing, VRCC 21411
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DK
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« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2016, 06:04:20 AM » |
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Steve,
Thanks.
Dan
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Machinery has a mysterious soul and a mind of its own.
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indybobm
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« Reply #25 on: November 13, 2016, 07:10:15 AM » |
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Pancho, could the difference in the bowl volume be because of the angle of the carbs while on the side stand? If so, what if you leaned the bike to the right at the same angle? Would the right side bowls contain more? Should not make a difference but something to check.
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« Last Edit: November 13, 2016, 07:12:22 AM by indybobm »
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So many roads, so little time
VRCC # 5258
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Ricky-D
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« Reply #26 on: November 13, 2016, 10:31:14 AM » |
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The thread isn't about hydrolock Ricky,, It is about the possibility of weak springs leading to varying float bowl levels. I mentioned that the carbs in one bank on my bike had 25 CC or so more fuel in them than the other. At some point, I will drain the carbs again with the new needle valves for comparison.
I know this thread is not about hydrolock, but you must realize, that hydrolock is the extreme result of a carburetor overflow problem to which the float needles have been determined to be an insignificant concern in that matter. By simple logical reasoning it's quite easy to see that any problem regarding fuel levels in the float bowl are not the result of the float needle springs in any case and more likely is a result of operator error and lack of proper maintenance procedures, noting that all conditions are not equal and likewise generalizations regarding maintenance procedures cannot be uniformly applied and determined adequate. *** |
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2000_Valkyrie_Interstate
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clanky
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« Reply #27 on: November 16, 2016, 09:17:42 AM » |
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I've read all the replies with interest. Because of this forum you guys saved me from a hydrolock disaster! I bought all new floats and float valves from Honda, yes don't brow beat me for paying and arm and a leg. My new OEM float and valve did NOT come with any spring. The float needle nestled into the all plastic float part and it's easy to install. Seems to be working fine. When I did "rebuild" the carbs, all I did was spray them out with Gumout and reassemble. Got one of BonS calibration units and now the lady runs quite smooth with a slight increase in gas mileage. Don't know why the OEM did not include spring but suspect the non spring design is a lot easier to install. My 2 cents.
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indybobm
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« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2016, 04:56:44 PM » |
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When you say that your float needles did not come with springs, were you expecting an external spring? Valk float needles have an internal spring. The pin on the end opposite of the rubber tip is spring loaded.
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« Last Edit: November 19, 2016, 04:59:28 AM by indybobm »
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So many roads, so little time
VRCC # 5258
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clanky
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« Reply #29 on: November 21, 2016, 09:09:41 AM » |
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Thanks for the info! I did not realize that there was a spring inside the float valve, learned something today.
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