Rear wheel spacer

[auditray2007]

Does anybody know what width the rear wheel spacer between the bearings should be on a 1998 Tourer?

[auditray2007]

 OK guys I think I found it. Its 4.662". Is that correct?
Thats 118.4148mm. Mine measures 117.7mm and the outer spacer is 15.8mm and it should be 15.621.
Would those differences have a negative impact on the 2 wide bearings (Mod)?

[Chrisj CMA]

I don't think anyone really has a reason to care how long it is. It just is.

[Cracker Jack]

I don't think anyone really has a reason to care how long it is. It just is.

Any more questions??

[Chrisj CMA]

OK guys I think I found it. Its 4.662". Is that correct?
Thats 118.4148mm. Mine measures 117.7mm and the outer spacer is 15.8mm and it should be 15.621.
Would those differences have a negative impact on the 2 wide bearings (Mod)?

If you are planning on the bearing mod.  Do not modify the internal spacer.  You shave the difference between the stock left bearing and the double row right bearing off the little hat shaped spacer.

[auditray2007]

cracker jack; ????

The mod was done by PO. Those are the present measurements . There are different to what X Ring recommends !! Question is would these slight differences matter to the life of the new bearings?

[John Schmidt]

Keep in mind the front and rear spacers, the center part inside the wheel, are different lengths.

[Chrisj CMA]

cracker jack; ????

The mod was done by PO. Those are the present measurements . There are different to what X Ring recommends !! Question is would these slight differences matter to the life of the new bearings?

Get a new internal spacer if you suspect it has been altered. Yes if altered it will affect bearing life in a negative way.
 

[auditray2007]

I didnt mention front spacers

[Cracker Jack]

cracker jack; ????

The mod was done by PO. Those are the present measurements . There are different to what X Ring recommends !! Question is would these slight differences matter to the life of the new bearings?

Get a new internal spacer if you suspect it has been altered. Yes if altered it will affect bearing life in a negative way.
  

Pardon my weird sense of humor. I was responding to the answer to your question which basically said, "You don't need to know".

What's important is that the inner spacer length needs to match the distance from the bottoms of the inner and outer  bearing pockets. This will hold the inner races in line with the outer races thereby avoiding putting any residual side load on the bearings.

In my opinion, the outer left side spacer is much less critical in that the swing arm can spring in or out a little (a few one/thousands) to make up for any deviation in length. Too long might make it hard to install the spacer. The four bolts holding the pumpkin being loose during assembly would/could let the pumpkin move in/out a little to make up for the deviation.

I realize I didn't answer your original question as I don't have one outside a wheel to measure and don't want to knock a bearing out of my spare wheel to measure.

[Blackduck]

If you cannot measure across the bearing seats, drop the old bearings and spacer back into the wheel and see how tight the inner spacer is with the bearings seated.
If loose replace it, if tight use it.

[auditray2007]

The reason I ask is because the two bearings 3204 2RS NSK lasted about 10K. The right hand one I could not turn whilst still in the wheel. Both turn but are definitely rough after taking them out. The spacer was very tight in there! The PO did the mod and the above are the measurements.
FYI; when I say X Ring recommendations he says "His" spacer was 4.662". Whether that measurement is OEM is still unclear.
Again; 4.662" is 118.41mm. Mine measures 117.7mm and the outer spacer is 15.8mm and it should be .615" / 15.621mm according to X Ring.
Would these differences wear the bearings prematurely or am I looking for some other gremlin?

[Hook#3287]

Who is X ring and where are these recommendations you speak of? ???

As Jeff (Chrisj CMA) stated, there has been no reason to modify the internal spacer between the bearings. 

At least none I've ever heard of.

If yours has been cut for some reason and you use the OEM sized bearings, when you torque the axle, you'll be putting undue force on the bearing races, causing premature failure.  Not to mention possibly pinching the swingarm and potentially causing stress in other areas.

How did someone add to the OEM exterior spacer?

[Icelander]

I know that this is probably not the answer you're looking for but if the mod was made and you're unsure of what exactly was done, I'd replace all the pieces that touch the axle shaft. The bearings definitely sound like they're trashed so that's a no-brainer but the idea here is that the inner spacer should match the distance between the seats on the wheel itself. once you get that part set,, then the next important is the drive-side alignment. replacing the thrust washer on the drive-side should eliminate any question. Lastly, as I did on my '98, you can measure the distance between a single roller (stock) and a double roller (drive-side) and have a machine shop mill the brake-side spacer down by the same amount. A few thousands off probably won't hurt but I'd make sure everything else is right first. Finally you can do the double roller mod. I've done about 10K miles on my new bearings and I'm feeling no slop/rattle/noise from the rear bearings.

Hope you get it figured out and can get back on the road soon!
Icelander

[Chrisj CMA]

The reason I ask is because the two bearings 3204 2RS NSK lasted about 10K. The right hand one I could not turn whilst still in the wheel. Both turn but are definitely rough after taking them out. The spacer was very tight in there! The PO did the mod and the above are the measurements.
FYI; when I say X Ring recommendations he says "His" spacer was 4.662". Whether that measurement is OEM is still unclear.
Again; 4.662" is 118.41mm. Mine measures 117.7mm and the outer spacer is 15.8mm and it should be .615" / 15.621mm according to X Ring.
Would these differences wear the bearings prematurely or am I looking for some other gremlin?

At this point I would order a new spacer.  Throw the internal spacer you have in the trash or engrave it / mark it somehow so it never gets used again if you keep it.  If you want to do the double double bearing mod, there is someone on this site that will sell you or maybe mod yours external hat shaped one to the right specs.  Again using the wrong or inappropriately altered spacers is bad, will cause wear and shorter bearing life for sure.

[Hook#3287]

Ok, I rummaged around my parts supply and came up with two spacers of unknown origin.  I also removed a REAR spacer from a wheel I have hanging about that needs new bearing annaways.

So I have 3 INTERNAL spacers that are all different sizes, although two (one I just removed and one I didn't) are close.

#1 =  118.96 mm

#2 =  117.93 mm

#3 =  117.86 mm

#2 is the one I just removed.  The diff between #2 & #3 is only 7/1000ths of a mm.

All three have the same I.D. and O.D.

 I suspect #1 may be a front wheel spacer, but haven't done any further research on that.

[auditray2007]

Who is X ring and where are these recommendations you speak of? ???

As Jeff (Chrisj CMA) stated, there has been no reason to modify the internal spacer between the bearings. 

At least none I've ever heard of.

If yours has been cut for some reason and you use the OEM sized bearings, when you torque the axle, you'll be putting undue force on the bearing races, causing premature failure.  Not to mention possibly pinching the swingarm and potentially causing stress in other areas.

How did someone add to the OEM exterior spacer?

The Right Wheel Bearing in the Left Bearing Pocket Mod
By: X Ring. I got this off the site here !!!

I dont know why you are saying someone added to the OEM spacer!!!!!
Nobody added to and spacer. The inner spacer I have is shorter that that measurement X Ring gave. Whether his is the correct length or not is debatable.

[auditray2007]

Ok, I rummaged around my parts supply and came up with two spacers of unknown origin.  I also removed a REAR spacer from a wheel I have hanging about that needs new bearing annaways.

So I have 3 INTERNAL spacers that are all different sizes, although two (one I just removed and one I didn't) are close.

#1 =  118.96 mm

#2 =  117.93 mm

#3 =  117.86 mm

#2 is the one I just removed.  The diff between #2 & #3 is only 7/1000ths of a mm.

All three have the same I.D. and O.D.

 I suspect #1 may be a front wheel spacer, but haven't done any further research on that.

Thank you for that Hook. Good to have something to go on.
Thank for the replies guys.
I'd order one in but it will take a week to arrive. We are getting magnificent weather here right now so I want to be out there asap.
I think I will go with my inner sleeve and shave a tad off the outer one and see what happens. I can always buy new bearings again. I can't buy sunshine!!!!

[Hook#3287]

I dont know why you are saying someone added to the OEM spacer!!!!!

From your earlier post. 

and the outer spacer is 15.8mm and it should be .615" / 15.621mm according to X Ring.

I haven't measured an exterior rear wheel spacer, so I was taking your word that yours was .2 mm larger than what X Ring states it should be.

[Hook#3287]

Umm, maybe this info should have been in your first post? ???

The Right Wheel Bearing in the Left Bearing Pocket Mod
By: X Ring. I got this off the site here !!!

I flunked mind reading in High School

Hope you get it figured out while the sun is still shining.

[John Schmidt]

I didnt mention front spacers

I'm well aware of that, having learned to read over 70 yrs. ago. I was merely trying to give something so consider during your search for answers. I've seen some riders getting them mixed up when they had both wheels off and the bearings plus internal spacers removed at the same time. As I recall, the front axle will go through the rear spacer, but not vice versa. In one case, the poor guy already had the front bearings installed but wouldn't seat. He tried to mount the front wheel anyway, to no avail. Personally, I think your best bet is to start with all OEM parts; internal spacer, outer spacer for the left side(rear wheel), and new bearings. Then proceed from there. With that you'll know what you have and can make changes accordingly if you want to do the double row bearing for the left side.

[auditray2007]

I dont know why you are saying someone added to the OEM spacer!!!!!

From your earlier post. 

and the outer spacer is 15.8mm and it should be .615" / 15.621mm according to X Ring.

I haven't measured an exterior rear wheel spacer, so I was taking your word that yours was .2 mm larger than what X Ring states it should be.

15.8mm is not OEM though! Its the modded size OR there abouts!

[auditray2007]

Umm, maybe this info should have been in your first post? ???

The Right Wheel Bearing in the Left Bearing Pocket Mod
By: X Ring. I got this off the site here !!!

I flunked mind reading in High School

Hope you get it figured out while the sun is still shining.

I did an extensive search of the site before posting and only found the article by X Ring regarding the inner spacer spec.

X Ring does not state that his findings are FACT. Thats why I did not quote him. I only quoted him when I was asked who X Ring was.

What I did say in my second post was;
"OK guys I think I found it. Its 4.662" Is that correct?"  and that "Thats 118.4148mm. Mine measures 117.7mm and the outer spacer is 15.8mm and it should be 15.621"
Would those differences have a negative impact on the 2 wide bearings (Mod)?

Is that correct left the discussion wide open! I also stated later that the PO did the mod!

Your measurements  would suggest to me that the miniscule differences which there are in 4 spacers that we have identified to this point would be acceptable. Your 2, mine and X Rings.

Is there then an acceptable tolerance here. If there isn't it would mean that the inner spacer would need to be machined to  suit "a" particular rim. But that would suggest that an OEM spacer one would buy from Honda would need work done and that all rims are different. That cannot be!

Given these slightly different measurements, whats to say a new spacer would not measure the same as mine!!! Would four spacers off the shelf measure differently?

The mod has nothing to do with the inner spacer. The spacer in my case measures the same as the distance between the two bearing seats. If there are indeed those differences we identified in the spacers does that not suggest that the "outer" spacer should be machined to suit "a" particular setup?
Is that why the PO left the outer spacer a tad wider because the inner measured a tad shorter???
Its impossible for me to measure from the face of the final drive to the face of the swing arm as I don't have access to that measuring equipment. Even if I did how does one take that measurement given the final drive should only be tightened after the axle bolt is torqued. I would have to think there is slight movement involved here!

Another thing which has shown up is the width of the bearings themselves. I just received new ones and they measure the same as the old ones at 20.4mm. According to the manufacturers they are 20.6 wide. I wonder what an OEM would measure.

Just trying to understand why these bearings wore out so quickly guys.

[Hook#3287]

Just trying to understand why these bearings wore out so quickly guys.

Could be a number of reasons, right?

But seeing as your system has been modified some, I'd do as Jeff suggested and take it back to OEM specs.

I believe Honda is very exact in their specs and the difference between the used spacers could be from wear or over  torquing, or who knows.  Pretty sure they didn't make individual spacers for individual wheels.

The bearings you can get from outside sources for less $ and sounds like you did. And your saying the interior spacer seems correct, maybe just new  bearings and an outside spacer.

[Blackduck]

OK, your spacer is the same as the bearing seat measurement.
Quick check, Long bolt/all thread rod and a couple of nuts. Put the bearings in and used the bolt/rod to tighten up as if assembled on the bike, check the bearings turn free when the nuts are hand tight and are still free when the bolt is torqued up. If the bearings feel restricted when torqued the spacer is too short.
Cheers Steve

[auditray2007]

Just trying to understand why these bearings wore out so quickly guys.

Could be a number of reasons, right?

But seeing as your system has been modified some, I'd do as Jeff suggested and take it back to OEM specs.

I believe Honda is very exact in their specs and the difference between the used spacers could be from wear or over  torquing, or who knows.  Pretty sure they didn't make individual spacers for individual wheels.

The bearings you can get from outside sources for less $ and sounds like you did. And your saying the interior spacer seems correct, maybe just new  bearings and an outside spacer.

I am confident that the inner spacer is good. Whether the outer spacer need to be shaven a tad is whats buggin me.

[auditray2007]

Steve; The bearings spin freely and the spacer is tight. Thats the way I put the last bearings in and did that check. They only did 10K !!
I can move the inner spacer with my finger but with a lot of force. Would that not suggest it is pretty near the perfect fit?

FYI; When I withdrew the axle shaft the outer spacer fell out when I moved the wheel. I refitted it a few times and its just snug. So un torqued is had a tolerance fit.

Its unlikely two new bearings could be defective. Right?

[Blackduck]

Sounds good on the inner spacer
If the outer is close to being a good fit I would not worry too much as it will not affect the bearings.
May spread or pull in the swing arm a little.
I run a 1/8" washer depending on which rear wheel I am running (have an early and late rim) to set the brake caliper in the right position.
Makes for a tight fit of the outer spacer.
Last tire change could not find my stock outer spacer( 1 rim still had stock bearings) so now have both rims on the big bearings.
Cheers Steve

[Ricky-D]

That test being suggested for the inner spacer is folly (See Reply #10 BlackDuck).There is no test in such a manner that will determine whether or not the spacer is the correct length. The only true way to determine if the spacer is the correct length has already been mentioned in this thread and is to measure as described (See reply #9 by CrackerJack).
Failure to have the correct length spacer will adversely affect the life of the bearing. We're talking the inner spacer here!

***

[auditray2007]

That is one of the first things I did before posting. The spacer measures 117.7mm and unbelievably the distance between the two seats is 117.7mm. I had four different people measure it as I could not believe they were exactly the same.
As previously stated; I can move the inner spacer with my finger but with a lot of force. Would that not suggest it is pretty near the perfect fit?

I just wanted to make sure these spacers were to spec in order to ascertain why the bearings failed. Then four slightly different measurements came into the mix and that is why we are here. Buying a new spacer is not going to change things if it so happens to measure 117.7mm.

The outer spacer is however in question as it is slightly wider than X Ring's spec which I believe to be correct.

I personally don't see anything wrong with Blackducks suggestion. I have fitted hundreds of bearings and use this method all the time. The only correction I would make to his post is that one uses washers slightly narrower than the bearings so the clamping force is evenly distributed to the outer bearing ring as opposed to the inner ring. So in this case a HD washer 46mm OD and if possible with a 32mm ID bore so no force is applied to the inner ring at all. Im sure that is what he meant! I have washer nuts which I use "with" the HD washer which means no contact is made with the inner race / ring at all. I then use the torqed washer nuts alone to check that the bearings are rolling easily! And they were / are!

So the measurements are exactly the same and the bearings roll when torqued as Blackjacks suggests. That would mean things are spot on so why the excessive wear if people suggest the outer spacer has no effect on things.

This is the first time I have had new bearings fail prematurely. It just so happens to be my own machine these are on and I am very interested to know what has happened here!! This takes on even more meaning as I have experienced what I think to be excessive front tire wear which I posted about a few weeks ago. I don't know if they are related or not. I dont think they are after looking at other bike tyres. The consensus seems to be that the wear gets aggressive once the tyre depth reaches a certain point.

FYI; The rear tyre is wearing perfectly.

[Blackduck]

Sorry did not make it clear, the washer I used goes between the spacer and caliper or caliper and swing arm. Nothing contacts the outer race.
With the bearings nothing presses on the outer race, all clamping is on the inner race.
Better of with a slightly longer inner spacer than shorter so there is no side load on the races.

Just for RD, how do you check preload on bearings unless you set them up as they would be in service? These are not bearings to preload but the principle is the same but you are checking to make sure there is no preload.

[gordonv]

The reason I ask is because the two bearings 3204 2RS NSK lasted about 10K.

I caught you saying the above. You used a 3204 bearing for the rear?

According to the generic list of parts, there is a 5204 and a 6204 bear in all the rear rims. I would say by the above statement, that the 3204 is the wrong one.

Is that a typing error, or can there actually be any number of different bears that could be used if measure/researched enough?

[auditray2007]

Sorry did not make it clear, the washer I used goes between the spacer and caliper or caliper and swing arm. Nothing contacts the outer race.
With the bearings nothing presses on the outer race, all clamping is on the inner race.
Better of with a slightly longer inner spacer than shorter so there is no side load on the races.

Just for RD, how do you check preload on bearings unless you set them up as they would be in service? These are not bearings to preload but the principle is the same but you are checking to make sure there is no preload.

I was referring to the washers used to press the bearings in!

[auditray2007]

gordonv;
When I called and asked for 5204 they couldnt find the reference given the sizes 20x47x20.6mm. I purchased from two dealers this week to make sure I'd have bearings ASAP. Both identified them as 3204's which is what I now have in my hand and they measure as above! This set is FAG and the other is supposedly SKF. Haven't received SKF's as yet. If I remember correctly they were listed as 5402 last time I did these and they were supposedly SKF.  I have to clear that up with the dealer tomorrow.

[Blackduck]

SKF have superceded the 5204 with the 3204
Just need to make sure the seal code is R not Z, R is rubber seals and the Z are metal shields that do not make a full seal.
Cheers Steve