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Author Topic: Suspension spring rates vs. rider wt.  (Read 2738 times)
MarkT
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VRCC #437 "Form follows Function"

Colorado Front Range - elevation 2.005 km


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« on: August 28, 2017, 10:07:54 AM »

 I just changed the rears from a 444-4020 damper w/ 140/200 springs at full preload, to 444-4057 dampers with 140/200 springs at 3/4 preload. Too many variables.

The 4057 dampers are matched to the 140/200 springs, per Progressive's Jorge.  The 4020's are matched to 105/150 springs so my sticking the heavier springs on them results in inappropriate damping for those springs.  I experienced a loss of carry capacity with the latter setup recently - got bottoming with full preload with just me and a 180# passenger.  Also with just me, and a heavy tongue weight trailer. Whereas a year before they were still working well, on the Inzane ride as well as with a 220# approx passenger, at half preload, at that time.

BTW, does running 140/200 springs at 3/4 preload mean I am running them at 185 preload? What does that actually mean? Each shock is set for carrying 185#?  If it means that, then they are set to carry 370# - minus my wt of 280# leaves 90# capacity remains for the back of the bike - seems too little. But the ride is pretty good with this setting - sharp bumps disappear.  I haven't found an explanation of what the published spring rates actually mean.  

Found this explanation - currently reading others as well.  Looks like my guess is about right.
http://www.sportrider.com/technicalities-spring-rate-and-preload#page-5

Even better:
http://www.promecha.com.au/springs_basics.htm

And the next page:
http://www.promecha.com.au/sag_preload.htm

From promecha's Myths & Misconceptions page:

"More Preload makes the spring stiffer?
   
          
     Preload makes the bike sit higher, or lower - it does NOT make the spring stiffer.    
          
     "So if someone tells you that you should reduce your preload to make the bike feel less harsh, they probably don’t have a clue" (GB). A spring's job is to be able to compress almost fully and then return to it's free length without any changes to length or rate. When you "preload" a spring it simply means you compress the spring with a load or adjuster before any vehicle/bike load is put on the spring. So if you have a spring that has a rate of 1Nm per mm and when you assemble the forks you compress the spring (preload) 10mm with the adjuster backed right off, then that is "fitted preload". The usual preload adjuster has a further 15mm of preload range, this means the total force you have stored in the spring is 25Nm. To make the fork move you have to exceed this load, and then the rate increases by 1Nm because that's the spring rate. What makes it feel more stiff is that instead of starting at 10Nm it starts at 25Nm because the one force is higher than the other. This is what gives you the feeling of a stiffer spring."


My reading has me understanding: The preload is the adjustment you use to change the sag of the suspension.  i.e. if it's sagging too much you increase the preload so the weight applied has to exceed the amount of the preload before it starts to sag. Then the sag increases at the same rate as before but just starts at a greater weight.  So if your suspension has (say) 2.69" of travel, that travel window is moved up the weight scale in it's entirety, so both ends of it carry greater weight.  Thus moving the bottoming point as well to a greater weight.

I'm thinking I might make a jig with a weight scale for my press and measure a shock at both ends of it's travel, maybe graph the results with different preloads for say 10mm points of it's travel.  Theory is nice but that doesn't beat empirical measurement.


Here's another thing I didn't know - suspension maintenance.  I confess this is a neglected area for me.  From the same web site:

   Regular service intervals and oil changes
    Maintenance Periods and Oil Change frequency

    The best way to understand when you should change your suspension fluid is to recognise that the oil's job is to convert the energy from bumps and braking etc into heat.

    After oil is changed, within a 50km ride oil will become discoloured although its performance will not be degraded. It is the change in damping characteristics of the oil that will most alert you to the need for a service; the oil will gradually lose its viscocity and its damping effects will be reduced. The main thing that causes the oil to lose viscocity is heat. So if you put a lot of heat in over a very short period of time e.g. a Superbike with a day's practice at near lap record times then you'd expect to change it after every practice. We recognise this is not practical for the road or dirt or most enduro or ride day applications...

    So as a guide for a roadbike you should change the oil in forks every 12 months or 15,000 to 20,000 km. The scrubbing action of forks is the main problem. Dirtbikes are a little harder to give a guideline for but if you use 40 to 60 hours of use (providing you're not too full-on) will work.

    A shock is a different matter, but generally once you have your shock set-up and you find you need to change that set-up, then you need to change the oil. If you use the shock in any Ride day or Dirt competition the time between services will get shorter, how much shorter depends on how hard you work the shock. But if you pay attention to how the shock works and, of course, how quickly it starts to fade, then you will definitely know when to service the shock.

    Untouched suspension at 40 to 60,000k? - the oil is putrid and smells like distilled cat's pee. Generally the suspension internals are then so bad that other parts need to be replaced.

   
     


I have to admit I'm a bit mystified as to what "distilled cat's pee" smells like.  I regularly distill my own but don't have a cat.  Anybody have some insight to share on that?
« Last Edit: August 28, 2017, 11:43:57 AM by MarkT » Logged


Vietnam-474 TFW Takhli 9-12/72 Linebckr II;307 SBW U-Tapao 05/73-4
Gryphon Rider
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2000 Tourer

Calgary, Alberta


« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2017, 01:44:19 PM »

That's a lot of reading that I haven't time for right now, but I'll describe my current understanding.  A progressively wound spring typically is composed of two different sections, with one section having more coils per unit of length than the other section.  A single rate spring rated at 200 will require a 200 lb. force to compress it the first inch, 400 lbs. to compress it two inches, 600 lbs. to compress it three inches, etc.  A compressively wound spring will require more additional force to compress it by one inch when it is nearer fully compressed than when it is just beginning to be compressed.  The 140/200 designation might mean one of two things; I would need to do the research to find out which it is.  It might mean that the effective spring rate is 140 lbs. per inch when you begin to apply force, and becomes 200 lbs. per inch when the spring is almost completely compressed, or it might mean that the more tightly-spaced section has a rate of 140 lbs. per inch, and the more widely-spaced section has a rate of 200 lbs. per inch.  I suspect it's the former.

Changing the preload has no effect on spring rate.  If you were to have several mounting holes on the bike's frame for the upper end of the shock, with the row of holes in line with the shock, moving the upper shock eye to a lower hole has the same effect as increasing the preload of the shock.  You raise the bike higher for a given load.

The reason why the same spring on two different shocks, one with lighter damping, will have the bike with the lighter-dampened shock more likely to bottom out, is that the lighter shock has less resistance a rapid change in the shock's length.  If you were to test the two shocks with the springs removed, it will require less force to compress the lighter shock at a given rate (distance per unit of time) than the heavier one.  E.g. if you fully extended the shocks, then applied a force to the end of each, the lighter shock would require less force to fully collapse the shock in two seconds than the heavier one would.  If the same force were applied to each, the lighter one would collapse faster.

To answer your question, "BTW, does running 140/200 springs at 3/4 preload mean I am running them at 185 preload?", one would have to know what the spring length fully extended and fully compressed is, by how much each preload position shortens the spring, what length is the spring when the bike is loaded, and what the mathematical function is to provide the spring rate at any compression length between 140 (uncompressed) & 200 (fully compressed).

Wouldn't distilled cat's pee simply be distilled water, and thus odourless?
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MarkT
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Posts: 5196


VRCC #437 "Form follows Function"

Colorado Front Range - elevation 2.005 km


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« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2017, 04:03:55 PM »

I note that Progressive says in their 444 Installation instructions, to set your ride "sag" to approx 1".  A tech writer online says ideally 40% of the shock's travel is the appropriate sag for rider wt. alone, with preload at zero, indicates ideal spring rate.   Then you can dial up preload when weight is added.  40% of my 444-4057's 2.69" travel is 1.076".  Checking my sag with 3/4 preload I measure 1.063".  So the preload is perfect on these  shocks for my wt RIGHT NOW. However that is with 3/4 preload - meaning I don't have much left to dial up for more load - like a co-rider or my trailers.  Unfortunately, the next shock up has 210/250 springs - WAY too much.  I could maybe add a spacer below the lower collar so I could have the same preload as now but with the adjuster turned up 4 turns...

I think first I'll do the Darby ride with trailer this weekend, about 700 miles or so, see where it is.
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Vietnam-474 TFW Takhli 9-12/72 Linebckr II;307 SBW U-Tapao 05/73-4
MarkT
Member
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Posts: 5196


VRCC #437 "Form follows Function"

Colorado Front Range - elevation 2.005 km


WWW
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2017, 05:02:42 PM »

That's a lot of reading that I haven't time for right now, but I'll describe my current understanding.  A progressively wound spring typically is composed of two different sections, with one section having more coils per unit of length than the other section.  A single rate spring rated at 200 will require a 200 lb. force to compress it the first inch, 400 lbs. to compress it two inches, 600 lbs. to compress it three inches, etc.  A compressively wound spring will require more additional force to compress it by one inch when it is nearer fully compressed than when it is just beginning to be compressed.  The 140/200 designation might mean one of two things; I would need to do the research to find out which it is.  It might mean that the effective spring rate is 140 lbs. per inch when you begin to apply force, and becomes 200 lbs. per inch when the spring is almost completely compressed, or it might mean that the more tightly-spaced section has a rate of 140 lbs. per inch, and the more widely-spaced section has a rate of 200 lbs. per inch.  I suspect it's the former.

Changing the preload has no effect on spring rate.  If you were to have several mounting holes on the bike's frame for the upper end of the shock, with the row of holes in line with the shock, moving the upper shock eye to a lower hole has the same effect as increasing the preload of the shock.  You raise the bike higher for a given load.

The reason why the same spring on two different shocks, one with lighter damping, will have the bike with the lighter-dampened shock more likely to bottom out, is that the lighter shock has less resistance a rapid change in the shock's length.  If you were to test the two shocks with the springs removed, it will require less force to compress the lighter shock at a given rate (distance per unit of time) than the heavier one.  E.g. if you fully extended the shocks, then applied a force to the end of each, the lighter shock would require less force to fully collapse the shock in two seconds than the heavier one would.  If the same force were applied to each, the lighter one would collapse faster.

To answer your question, "BTW, does running 140/200 springs at 3/4 preload mean I am running them at 185 preload?", one would have to know what the spring length fully extended and fully compressed is, by how much each preload position shortens the spring, what length is the spring when the bike is loaded, and what the mathematical function is to provide the spring rate at any compression length between 140 (uncompressed) & 200 (fully compressed).

Wouldn't distilled cat's pee simply be distilled water, and thus odourless?




I agree with your comments (pretty astute BTW, IMHO) with some caveats or at least comments.

These are indeed progressive wound springs, it's not just their name.  When you apply preload, the first part to compress is the closer-wound segment.  Note in this pic, the 140/200 spring is on the shock with full preload - 8 turns on a symmetric thread. Note they are nearly touching. The other spring is the lighter 105/150. The springs are the same length when off the shock. As you can see, after full preload is applied, most of the remaining tension of the spring is linear.  I am assuming the full range of 2.69" travel is still available on this shock, even with full preload applied. So who knows what their designations mean, or if they aren't the same once preload is involved. I think I need to do the measurements with graphing I mentioned above. I don't think the spring rates mean "per inch". Unless someone can point to that designation by Progressive.



Right, changing the preload doesn't affect rate - except when preloading past the closer-wound segment of the spring. What preload does, is affect at what weight the spring starts to work.  Put on 200# of preload, and the spring starts working with 200# more weight on it, but at that point an increment of weight will depress it the same distance as without the preload. Again, disregarding the "progressive" part of the spring. This affects the height of the suspension at a given weight. This was explained in a green paragraph above.

Your next paragraph is what Jorge was explaining.  However the site I quoted above did suggest you can change the springs only and still get some benefit. Not the least of which is significant savings.  Which is what I did, and I think I discovered less than optimum behavior.  

I'm going to dig into this with lab measurements.  But probably not immediately.  I have to get pipes going and have a big ride coming up.

Oh on the distilled cat's pee.  Not sure on that yielding water.  After all, most liquors are distilled and they aren't water.  Thank goodness.  I'm gonna mix up a salty dog in a couple minutes.

« Last Edit: August 28, 2017, 05:07:43 PM by MarkT » Logged


Vietnam-474 TFW Takhli 9-12/72 Linebckr II;307 SBW U-Tapao 05/73-4
dr.danh
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Posts: 139


« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2017, 05:30:14 PM »

I have a tourer and the progreesive coil over spring shock. Is set at its lowest notch. Rear of bike at lowest point. Rides like a da*n  log wagon. On that shock Tourer, with 2 up total wt. both *combined approx. 400.     Where would those shock settings ride the best?  Thx.
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MarkT
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VRCC #437 "Form follows Function"

Colorado Front Range - elevation 2.005 km


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« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2017, 06:14:38 PM »

What model shock is it?  What springs?  w/o knowing that - I'd say full preload with 400#.
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Vietnam-474 TFW Takhli 9-12/72 Linebckr II;307 SBW U-Tapao 05/73-4
dr.danh
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« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2017, 07:07:10 PM »

not sure, was on the bike when i bought it and on the lowest setting.They have the coil over spring.  how could i tell what model. and by full you mean top notch as full suspension for the 2 up 400 total wt.
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MarkT
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Posts: 5196


VRCC #437 "Form follows Function"

Colorado Front Range - elevation 2.005 km


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« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2017, 01:32:47 AM »

Sounds like you have the 412 model.  The 440 or 444's have a rotating collar that turns on threads up to 8 turns. No notches.  By full I mean you turn the adjuster to max depression of the spring.  The springs may have the strength printed on them, it is on the 44X models.
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Vietnam-474 TFW Takhli 9-12/72 Linebckr II;307 SBW U-Tapao 05/73-4
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