Poll Regarding Handlebar-Mounted GPS Devices (including smart phones)

[Bill Havins]

I'm interested in how many of us attach a GPS device of some sort on or around the handlebars of our motorcycles.  So, if you do use a GPS device mounted to your handlebars (or nearby) please vote "Yes."  If you don't use a mounted GPS device, please vote "No."

The poll will close in 10 days.  After the poll closes I'll explain my interest in the topic.

Thanks!

Bill

[mikesgotmods]

Yes.

[Promagnaman]

Yes

[F6Cpdx]

Yes

[Crabballs]

Absolutely!

I am in the process of fabricating my smartphone cradle with built in wireless charger.  Right now I have an OtterBox holster wire tied to the windshield mount and just plug in the USB cable for power. The phone connects to the system below that I designed and fabricated via bluetooth.  I use Waze for my navigation.

Here's what the old V71a looks like on the bike. Control head is on a custom made slide mount that electrically connects when inserted. PTT under left grip. Coiled microphone/speakers cable plug into the bike via waterproof RJ45 jack. Antenna is a Larsen NMO-2/70B Black antenna mounted on homemade and sealed half wave grounding mast with "N" connector on bottom. Antenna/mast assembly is easily removed via three set screws and the LMR200 cable is safely stored on the female "N" connector after unscrewing protective cap. All connections are waterproof.

[st2sam]

   YES.

[Bill Havins]

Please be sure to enter your "vote" using the Poll Buttons at the top of the thread (the "Yes," "No," "Submit" buttons).  If you just post a reply to the thread (and don't click on the appropriate buttons for the poll) your vote doesn't get included in the totals.

Thanks!

Bill

[fl@tm@n]

yes

[Robert]

No

[Bill Havins]

Well, I think the voting is winding down and these results certainly indicate that, among respondents, a "super-majority" have a GPS device mounted on or about their handlebars.  This was certainly not a "scientific" poll.  So the numbers can't be considered "an accurate reflection of the behavior of the touring motorcycle population."  But my dealer told me the other day that almost every potential buyer who comes in his shop asks about GPS when they are looking at a touring bike.  So...

I like GPS a lot.  But I have never wanted to refer to my cellphone screen while traveling down the highway.  And I have never really wanted to sync a GPS device to my Sena SNH-10 headset.  But the times may be changing.

Here is my reason for posting the poll.  For a number of years I have been working on an instrument display device (for any vehicle) that is based on "cognitive mapping" (I have a patent on the concept and have conducted research on the concept with a group of more than 100 volunteers).  In 2011 I presented a paper to a Society of Automotive Engineers congress in Chicago.  Some of the opinions I expressed in that presentation about the human-machine interface have now been incorporated into modern vehicles (but not the concept of "cognitive mapping").

As you folks know, I work on projects over the winter months.  And some of them turn out pretty well, if I do say so myself.  My project for this winter is to replace my instrument cluster on my Valkyrie with an instrument cluster of my own design that is based on my concept of cognitive mapping.  And, as a result of your responses to this poll (and other information I have collected) the display will include access to Google Maps (on the same display).

This past Saturday I picked up an 8 inch Samsung Galaxy Tab S2 (http://www.samsung.com/global/galaxy/galaxy-tab-s2/).  It's superAMOLED display is as easy or easier to read in sunlight than the LCD display in the Valkyrie display package.  It will serve as the display device in my instrument cluster.

So, the die is cast!  The project is on!  This will be as much, if not more work than the fairing project.  But I am really excited I may finally get my concept rolling down the road.

Thanks for responding to the poll!  Your responses helped me make the last of my basic design decisions.

Bill

[Crabballs]

Bill, that really sounds like a cool project.  You are definitely the man to pull it off. 

The Valk dash is fine for my needs as I prefer a minimalist and uncluttered look.  I also like to keep things simple and effortless.  I also like to not be locked into manufacturer's OEM parts/firmware as well.  That is why I made the above system so easy to use.  I just slide the transceiver control head of the radio into the holder and plug the helmet in via RJ45.  The phone auto-connects via bluetooth when the bike is started or in ACC.  I don't want to fool around with batteries in a bluetooth helmet system so I never have to worry about not having a charge.  Only thing left for me to do is complete my wireless charging phone cradle so I have power without ever having to plug the phone in.

I find using a smartphone more practical for navigation as I don't have to pay for map updates.  I don't even bother to use the builtin nav system in any of my other vehicles.  Waze is wonderful and continually updated. 

On a side note: Hopefully you can eliminate the internal battery in the Tab so you won't have that headache in the future.

[Kidd]

Bill
Did I miss the part about saddle bags ?

[Bill Havins]

No, Kidd.  You didn't miss the saddlebags build.  It hasn't happened yet; maybe in the winter of 2018-'19.

At my age I have to plan ahead (not that many pages left on my calendar, so-to-speak).  So, I have to decide what to work on and stick to it.  Judy wants me to get the display on the road "for real" (it's a long story).  And I want to, too, even if I am the only one who ever uses it.  So this winter it's the display project.  Next winter - who knows.

Bill

[idcrewdawg]

I find using a smartphone more practical for navigation as I don't have to pay for map updates.  I don't even bother to use the builtin nav system in any of my other vehicles.  Waze is wonderful and continually updated. 

Depending on your point of view, it's a great app or it's a mediocre map. IMO, it's mediocre and missing a few features that if included would stomp Google Maps into the ground. With Google Maps navigation enabled, not just routing, they use a social congestion algorithm to decide what roads to take. Waze doesn't do this, it just shows when you're going to encounter it. Google Maps will notify you of congestion, and offer you an option of going around if the option gives you a better estimated travel time. Another thing that Waze misses seems to be an accurate estimate of travel time based on your driving style. If you typically drive slower than the speed limit when using Google Maps, it learns this, and the estimates it generates are adjusted for that, similarly if you typically drive faster than the speed limit. Waze only uses what it thinks the speed limits are for estimated drive time, based on traffic congestion.

What Google Maps doesn't do that Waze does do is announce road hazards as submitted by users on the road. If there is debris, and someone submits that hazard, Waze will tell you before you get to it so you can keep an eye out for it. Same thing for broken down cars on the side of the road, and even police activity so you can keep an eye out for potential speed traps or cops looking to tag you after going over the crest of a hill, as well as accidents that are ahead so that you can consider different route options should you want to.

I would be interested in learning what cognitive mapping means.

[Robert]

Hey I'm going to start a new post on what we think should be Bill's next project. I think Kidd hit it right on the head the saddlebag should be the next one.   

I am anxious to see the dash done knowing the abilities of person that is doing the work. 

[Bill Havins]

"Cognitive mapping"....  Okay, as briefly as I can.  But first, as if you didn't know, I'm a bit of a geek.  And, in my former life I practiced as a neuropsychologist, evaluating and treating individuals who had experienced brain injuries or were exhibiting symptoms of a progressive dementing disorder.  Since "retiring" from practice I have focused on my interests in human factors and cognition.  I am keenly aware of how people perceive and interact with their world, whether they are uninjured or have part of their senses/nervous system impaired.

Okay.  Cognitive mapping.  Humans scan their environments in a very predictable manner.  And they scan elements in their environment in predictable manners as well.  Pictures (photographs and paintings) are scanned one way.  "Arrays" (think "gauge clusters") are scanned another way.

If you want data (i.e., information from instruments) to be easily found, then you organize that information according to the "cognitive map" people use when they look for information in an array.  And if you want "warnings" to be quickly seen, you position those warnings where people look at an array first (i.e., the point where they begin their scan of an array even if the array is very familiar to them).

On the human factors side of the issue, if you want data to be perceived rapidly, then you carefully choose how those data are presented.  So, for example, analog gauges are "read" and "understood" quicker than either digital or text-based gauges (text-based gauges are cognitively "super slow").  But the speed difference between analog and digital gauges can disappear under certain task demands (e.g., "Am I going the speed limit?").

Also from the human factors side of things, "warnings" can be made more obvious by adjusting their size, shape, color, and, for example, their "blink rate" (e.g., a blinking light is perceived quicker than one that comes on and stays on).  These are just some of the cognitive and human factors issues involved in designing a very functional (as opposed to "pretty") gauge cluster.

I built a prototype of what I call my "Motorcycle Information Display" back in 2012.  But, at the time, LCD displays proved rather useless under most sunlit conditions.  I shelved the project waiting for the display science to mature to the point where a sunlight-readable display was available at a price that was reasonable.

Of course, LED sign boards (e.g., scoreboards, information boards, etc.) have been used in outdoor sports arenas and billboards for many years.  But those things require huge power supplies and are not adaptable to use on a scooter.  Samsung's SuperAMOLED displays and Apple's Retina displays now work well in direct sunlight - they're not perfect, but they're getting better.

So, my gauge cluster, or "Motorcycle Information Display," will take advantage of "cognitive mapping" to ensure information can be found and understood "at a glance."  And, if I write my software well, it will present information to you even before you realize you need to see it.  Adding GPS to the package may make this a really neat display.

Winter.  It's tough when I get bored.

Bill

[Crabballs]

I find using a smartphone more practical for navigation as I don't have to pay for map updates.  I don't even bother to use the builtin nav system in any of my other vehicles.  Waze is wonderful and continually updated. 

Depending on your point of view, it's a great app or it's a mediocre map. IMO, it's mediocre and missing a few features that if included would stomp Google Maps into the ground. With Google Maps navigation enabled, not just routing, they use a social congestion algorithm to decide what roads to take. Waze doesn't do this, it just shows when you're going to encounter it. Google Maps will notify you of congestion, and offer you an option of going around if the option gives you a better estimated travel time. Another thing that Waze misses seems to be an accurate estimate of travel time based on your driving style. If you typically drive slower than the speed limit when using Google Maps, it learns this, and the estimates it generates are adjusted for that, similarly if you typically drive faster than the speed limit. Waze only uses what it thinks the speed limits are for estimated drive time, based on traffic congestion.

What Google Maps doesn't do that Waze does do is announce road hazards as submitted by users on the road. If there is debris, and someone submits that hazard, Waze will tell you before you get to it so you can keep an eye out for it. Same thing for broken down cars on the side of the road, and even police activity so you can keep an eye out for potential speed traps or cops looking to tag you after going over the crest of a hill, as well as accidents that are ahead so that you can consider different route options should you want to.

I would be interested in learning what cognitive mapping means.

Totally agree! My son uses Google Maps for his navigation and loves it, won't touch Waze.  I haven't played with Google Maps yet but am planning to do so.  My only complaint about Waze is the social media type aspect about it.  While you can get good real time updates on road hazards there seem to be a high percentage of false positives where people would report things such as road debris when there is none.  This is my point, using a smartphone for nav gives you the ability to use the app you are most comfortable with.

As for Bill's project, I am extremely excited about it and can't wait to see him start posting progress on his journey.  It should be amazing and great learning experience for us all.

[Jess from VA]

So, for example, analog gauges are "read" and "understood" quicker than either digital or text-based gauges

Very interesting Bill.

I have never liked digital gauges or watches for that matter.  It takes me longer to process digital info than analog info.  Not 20 minutes longer, put perceptively longer.  I always assumed it was because I was raised and lived on analog (sweep) gauges for decades, before digital came along. Old dog and new tricks thing.

Of course another reason is when you loose a digital gauge, you (usually) loose the whole dash, whereas with analogs, you only lose one at a time.

Then there was the time I took a long trip in my new used digital Lincoln Continental.  The air bag suspension was the softest ride I had ever had, and it was very easy to exceed the limit with none of the usual suspension bump, engine roar, or outside noise in all my other cars.  Well I kept the speedo dead on at 85 for several hours straight (without cruise control), until I discovered to my great surprise that the stupid digi dash pegged at (would go no higher than) 85.  God only knew how fast I had really been going.  I thought the other cars were flashing by pretty fast for only 85.  

Of course, later the entire dash went black.  One call to Lincoln revealed a new one was stupid expensive, so when my salvage one arrived, I suddenly had a 155K car instead of a 65K car.  I saved the old dash unit for mileage proof, not that anyone could ever open it's black/blank heart.  Screw digital dashes.

These strong attitudes have resulted in lay opinions that I am passive aggressive or even bipolar.  I fell off my basement close line trying to tight rope walk at age 5 (after seeing the Barnum and Bailey circus), right on my head.  So there's that.  

[Chaz1076]

I can't help it, I'm old school. This was a big reason I went for the Valkyrie.  I don't or won't use much of the technology on the touring Goldwing.   I don't need an intercom when it's just me.  And I don't listen to music when riding.  Having said that, for me, a big part of the fun touring is sitting down with paper maps, planning each day's ride.  I then laminate the map for that day with useful info on the back, lunch stops, gas stops, hotel for the night,  and the like.   If I make a wrong turn or more often, road construction, I prefer to pull over and then get out my phone.  But I will confess, there have been times when having a GPS with your lunch stop programmed in would have proved useful. But as I said in the beginning, I'm old school.  

[Kidd]

You're old school ?  Ha  !      I do not have a smart phone , how's that for "old school "
If I go touring , it's in my Gx470 

However , I am considering the Pixel 2  or the new Iphone X , the  thing is , I am always considering a smart phone and where has that got me , no where , still using a flip

I can't help it, I'm old school. This was a big reason I went for the Valkyrie.  I don't or won't use much of the technology on the touring Goldwing.   I don't need an intercom when it's just me.  And I don't listen to music when riding.  Having said that, for me, a big part of the fun touring is sitting down with paper maps, planning each day's ride.  I then laminate the map for that day with useful info on the back, lunch stops, gas stops, hotel for the night,  and the like.   If I make a wrong turn or more often, road construction, I prefer to pull over and then get out my phone.  But I will confess, there have been times when having a GPS with your lunch stop programmed in would have proved useful. But as I said in the beginning, I'm old school.  

[Bill Havins]

[snip]....so when my salvage one arrived, I suddenly had a 155K car instead of a 65K car.  I saved the old dash unit for mileage proof...[snip]

Jess,

That period in automotive history (speedometers that did not read higher than 85 MPH) was a rather bleak period.  It was after the "Arab Oil Embargo" (late 1970's) and politicians were trying to prove they knew how to save energy.  I had a T-Bird in 1984 that had a similar dash.  The funny thing was that, if you switched the speedometer to display kilometers per hour it would continue reading the speed well above 85.  So the KPH button was a kind of a "back door" to get around federal law.  Hmmmm...

On modern vehicles mileage is stored in the ECU, not the instrument cluster or the speedometer.  I believe that is true on our Valkyries; it's a simple "poll" of the ECU over the CAN Bus.  I hope to know for sure in a few weeks.

Bill

[idcrewdawg]

"Cognitive mapping"....  Okay, as briefly as I can.  But first, as if you didn't know, I'm a bit of a geek.  And, in my former life I practiced as a neuropsychologist, evaluating and treating individuals who had experienced brain injuries or were exhibiting symptoms of a progressive dementing disorder.  Since "retiring" from practice I have focused on my interests in human factors and cognition.  I am keenly aware of how people perceive and interact with their world, whether they are uninjured or have part of their senses/nervous system impaired.

Okay.  Cognitive mapping.  Humans scan their environments in a very predictable manner.  And they scan elements in their environment in predictable manners as well.  Pictures (photographs and paintings) are scanned one way.  "Arrays" (think "gauge clusters") are scanned another way.

If you want data (i.e., information from instruments) to be easily found, then you organize that information according to the "cognitive map" people use when they look for information in an array.  And if you want "warnings" to be quickly seen, you position those warnings where people look at an array first (i.e., the point where they begin their scan of an array even if the array is very familiar to them).

On the human factors side of the issue, if you want data to be perceived rapidly, then you carefully choose how those data are presented.  So, for example, analog gauges are "read" and "understood" quicker than either digital or text-based gauges (text-based gauges are cognitively "super slow").  But the speed difference between analog and digital gauges can disappear under certain task demands (e.g., "Am I going the speed limit?").

Also from the human factors side of things, "warnings" can be made more obvious by adjusting their size, shape, color, and, for example, their "blink rate" (e.g., a blinking light is perceived quicker than one that comes on and stays on).  These are just some of the cognitive and human factors issues involved in designing a very functional (as opposed to "pretty") gauge cluster.

I built a prototype of what I call my "Motorcycle Information Display" back in 2012.  But, at the time, LCD displays proved rather useless under most sunlit conditions.  I shelved the project waiting for the display science to mature to the point where a sunlight-readable display was available at a price that was reasonable.

Of course, LED sign boards (e.g., scoreboards, information boards, etc.) have been used in outdoor sports arenas and billboards for many years.  But those things require huge power supplies and are not adaptable to use on a scooter.  Samsung's SuperAMOLED displays and Apple's Retina displays now work well in direct sunlight - they're not perfect, but they're getting better.

So, my gauge cluster, or "Motorcycle Information Display," will take advantage of "cognitive mapping" to ensure information can be found and understood "at a glance."  And, if I write my software well, it will present information to you even before you realize you need to see it.  Adding GPS to the package may make this a really neat display.

Winter.  It's tough when I get bored.

Bill

Very interesting. Now that you've explained the term, I am completely familiar with which you speak. I'm a Maintenance SME at the US Air Force Safety Investigation Headquarters. One of the things I do is work with Human Factors engineers who evaluate the human/machine interface. My primary focus is with Remotely Piloted Aircraft. In that realm, the pilot lacks the "seat of the pants" flying that regular pilots experience and so they rely heavily on gauges. All the gauges that are displayed for the pilot use analog/digital combinations to aid in quick glancing type checks as well as more focused type checks. The pilots cross check of the gauges is at regular intervals, as well as during emergencies. To have a bike that can combine several things into the display, and vary depending on need and preference of the rider would be supremely helpful.

To what others have said about route planning, that's the one thing that Google Maps on my phone does better than anything else I've encountered. Including traditional GPS units found in cars, as well as the ones that are dash-top or suction cupped to the window.

With Google Maps, you can add what I refer to as way-points to the total route before starting the route so you know about how long you'll be on the bike.

So let's say your route is going to begin and end at your house. Let's say your house is 123 Main St, NYC, NY and you want to ride all day long and make several stops along the way through areas you're not familiar with in rural NY. Seeing several sites, and having lunch. The overall route would be in a circular pattern if looked at from an overall route perspective. You can say starting location is your house, way-point A is the truck stop all of your buds are going to stop at, but you've never been to because you just moved to the area, and way-point B will be a lake where all the pretty girls like to sunbathe, and your group is going to have lunch at, way-point C is to the south 30 minutes towards way-point A, and way-point D is the start of a great motorcycle road, and finally the last stop will be your home which takes you from the end of the motorcycle road past way-point C and then finally home. If you use a program like Waze, you can't enter way-points until you're on your route, and that's not exactly convenient.

If I could combine that route planning capability with things like DTE, Eng/Oil/Coolant Temps and Speed, and have all of that push through Bluetooth to my helmet. I think I'd like that over anything else I've seen on the market.

[Bill Havins]

[snip]

If I could combine that route planning capability with things like DTE, Eng/Oil/Coolant Temps and Speed, and have all of that push through Bluetooth to my helmet. I think I'd like that over anything else I've seen on the market.

 

There is a big "BUT,..." I must throw in here.  And it is extremely important.  There is a researcher at Temple University who has continued to look at how much information is "too much."  What she has found is that there is a point where information begins to slow decision-making.  Too much information can even cause a person to fail to make a decision in a circumstance that might prove life-threatening.  It is not hard to appreciate how this might affect a motorcycle rider, especially when traveling at speed and/or in traffic.  So there has to be a balance.

We have six senses.  Yes, six!  The sixth sense is somatosensory or proprioceptive information.  It has to do with the "map" we have in our heads that tracks where our body parts are "in space."  That's the input that is missing for the drone pilots in the example in your post.  It is also what caused Apache helicopter pilots to crash when they were hovering in one place.  (Then human factors came up with a pressure suit that "pushed" on the pilot's body to "mimic" wind drift and the crashes stopped.)  In each task that we perform our brains prioritize sensory information based on importance to completion of the task.  If you overload a sensory channel (e.g., loud and scary sounds coming through the speakers in your helmet) you may fail to perceive other sensory information that requires attention (e.g., the Yugo that has started to drift into your lane).  For each task that we perform we need a certain set of sensory information, we need the right amount, and we don't want to "rearrange" the hierarchy of that information.

Bill

[Kidd]

Just reading this , Bill  was an overload a sensory channel , or what ever 

[snip]

If I could combine that route planning capability with things like DTE, Eng/Oil/Coolant Temps and Speed, and have all of that push through Bluetooth to my helmet. I think I'd like that over anything else I've seen on the market.

 

There is a big "BUT,..." I must throw in here.  And it is extremely important.  There is a researcher at Temple University who has continued to look at how much information is "too much."  What she has found is that there is a point where information begins to slow decision-making.  Too much information can even cause a person to fail to make a decision in a circumstance that might prove life-threatening.  It is not hard to appreciate how this might affect a motorcycle rider, especially when traveling at speed and/or in traffic.  So there has to be a balance.

We have six senses.  Yes, six!  The sixth sense is somatosensory or proprioceptive information.  It has to do with the "map" we have in our heads that tracks where our body parts are "in space."  That's the input that is missing for the drone pilots in the example in your post.  It is also what caused Apache helicopter pilots to crash when they were hovering in one place.  (Then human factors came up with a pressure suit that "pushed" on the pilot's body to "mimic" wind drift and the crashes stopped.)  In each task that we perform our brains prioritize sensory information based on importance to completion of the task.  If you overload a sensory channel (e.g., loud and scary sounds coming through the speakers in your helmet) you may fail to perceive other sensory information that requires attention (e.g., the Yugo that has started to drift into your lane).  For each task that we perform we need a certain set of sensory information, we need the right amount, and we don't want to "rearrange" the hierarchy of that information.

Bill

[idcrewdawg]

Thanks Bill!