Spinning Starter

[timk519]

Over the past few months, my starter's been 'spinning' when I go to start the bike after it's been left alone for a while - ie the motor spins but won't engage the engine flywheel. It'll generally catch after a few tries, or if I bump the tranny before starting.

Any thoughts on what's causing this?

[Garland]

I went through that on my bike also. I had broken several teeth off of the starter idler gear when trying to start while hydolocked. If you want to pull the starter, you can verify if this is the problem by looking inside the rear case with the starter out. You can spin the gear the starter engages with your finger and see or feel a problem. Unfortunately, the only way to fix (if that is the problem) is to pull the engine and open the rear case. Been there, done that, got the tee shirt.

[timk519]

Hmmm - I have a belly tank, so the bike can't get hydrolock'd.

Could it be the starter clutch? Does the valk have such a thing?

[Chrisj CMA]

The bike can hydrolock even with a belly tank if it has the stock carbs.........sounds like a weak battery.......first sign of a weak battery on a valkyrie is that it fails to power the ignition but has plenty of strength to turn over the motor

[X Ring]

No guys, what he is saying is the starter is spinning but it is not turning the engine.  Sounds like the bendix has gone in the starter.  It is not pushing the starter gear out to engage the flywheel.  Time for a new starter.

[timk519]

Yes - when the bike's cold, the first few tries the starter'll spin w/out turning the engine. However after 2-3 tries, or after bumping the engine with the gears engaged, it'll engage the engine and it'll start. After that, once the bike's warmed up, it'll start no problem.

Now I'll have to admit to wondering - what's a bendix?

[Thunderbolt]

but the reference to a Bendix is an old term for solenoid or a high current relay that mechanically engages the spinning starter motor and usually had a spring on a shaft with a gear on the end.

[X Ring]

Yes, it's old school term that i learned at the side of my Dad in the days before disposable parts.  Actually watched him rebuild starters and altenators himself instead of running to the parts store for them.  Anyway, I digress.  I believe you need to buy another starter.  Check Pinwall unless you want to pony up the money for a new one.   

[hubcapsc]

Over the past few months, my starter's been 'spinning' when I go to start the bike after it's been left alone for a while - ie the motor spins but won't engage the engine flywheel. It'll generally catch after a few tries, or if I bump the tranny before starting.

Any thoughts on what's causing this?

Sounds like my 8N tractor. The ring-gear inside the motor has a few bad teeth. Some (most?) starters
stop near the same place most of the time, so many's the time I have to put my tractor in fourth gear, stand beside
it and grab the rear tire lugs and rock it back and forth until it moves to a good gear. When I think
it is at a good gear, I get back on the tractor and hit the starter. Sometimes I have to go through
this several times before it is at a good gear, and then if it doesn't light up, the starter often stops
spinning at the bad place again. It's kind of endearing on a clapped-out tractor, not so much
on a Valkyrie.

-Mike "I'm with Garland"

[Robert]

This is not like a automotive starter that has a Bendix or solenoid that physically moves the gear in and out, which is what was explained but what wasn't explained is that the starter doesn't have a gear that goes in and out but has a gear that is like a ratchet that when the engine starts freewheels but doesn't disengage. This gear is not the starter gear but one of the gears the starter engages to. This allows the engine to run without turning the starter and has no in and out movement of the starter gear. Its a sprag or one way gear. These are used quite a bit in all applications and what happens is the one way mechanism in the gear starts to go bad and doesn't engage properly or quickly and eventually doesn't work at all. Think of it like a ratchet going bad and not holding when you pull it. I also agree that this gear is more than likely not the problem but one of the intermediate gears that go between this and the starter. I would also be surprise if it was the starter because the reduction gears inside would have to be stripped on the starter to be bad. Not saying this isn't the case for sure but the weaker link is the intermediate gears.
courtesy Big BF shows the intermediate gears and sprag

[Ferris Leets]

but the reference to a Bendix is an old term for solenoid or a high current relay that mechanically engages the spinning starter motor and usually had a spring on a shaft with a gear on the end.

The solenoid is a solenoid.  A heavy duty electric relay.  The Bendix is a centrifigal force powered spring and gear.  When it spins in the drive direction it pops into the ring gear.  When the ring is going faster than the starter (engine started) or the solenoid disengages the bendix snaps out of the ring gear.

[X Ring]

Thanks Guy!!     I couldn't remember how to explain it.

The crux of it is the o.p. needs a new starter.

[fudgie]

Take it out (good luck!) and take it to a alt/starter guy for him to look at it. Its alot cheaper. If you have none nearby, send it to me and i'll take it into town to my guy.

[timk519]

Take it out (good luck!) and take it to a alt/starter guy for him to look at it. Its alot cheaper. If you have none nearby, send it to me and i'll take it into town to my guy.

Thanks for all the info folks, I know what to do now.

Fudgie - appreciate the offer, but I can't take you up on it since I'm in Canada. Hopefully there's a starter / alternator place nearby that can handle this for me.

[Chrisj CMA]

All of us arm chair quarterbacks try to diagnose a problem without the benefit of seeing, hearing, touching.  When my first battery went bad 2 years into my Valkyrie experience...I hit the starter and it spun much faster than normal but absolutely no signs of firing.  Looking back, I could have very well described it as the starter not turning over the engine.  Now, I admit the thing about bumping the tranny to get it started is VERY different than what happened to me, so you may have some broken teeth.  If thats the case I wouldnt keep starting it until you find out

[timk519]

bumping the tranny may or may not've helped - it was just something I did. That the engine tended to start afterwards may've just been a co-incidence.

Now - I will also say there's been a number of times where I didn't bump the tranny, and eventually it would catch and start.

I'll have to pull the starter and get it checked out to see.

[Jeff K]

bumping the tranny may or may not've helped - it was just something I did. That the engine tended to start afterwards may've just been a co-incidence.

Now - I will also say there's been a number of times where I didn't bump the tranny, and eventually it would catch and start.

I'll have to pull the starter and get it checked out to see.

As was posted above by Robert.
There is no clutch or "bendix" on a Valk starter. Just one fixed gear on the end. The intermediate gearing handles the connection between the starter and the engine.

 

[Ricky-D]

Both Robert and Jeff are correct.

Your problem is not the starter, as you say it continues to spin when the starter button is depressed.

I can't make out the part that is your problem but it looks like it is part#26 and part#19 in the drawing. It will be a bearing assembly working on a ramped race. Whether a roller or ball I can't determine.  Regardless it is involved with part#20 which is the cover/holder. Maybe someone who has had the motor to that point of take down can give more complete information.

***

[Jeff K]

Both Robert and Jeff are correct.

Your problem is not the starter, as you say it continues to spin when the starter button is depressed.

I can't make out the part that is your problem but it looks like it is part#26 and part#19 in the drawing. It will be a bearing assembly working on a ramped race. Whether a roller or ball I can't determine.  Regardless it is involved with part#20 which is the cover/holder. Maybe someone who has had the motor to that point of take down can give more complete information.

***

Part #31

[timk519]

Part #31

is that part of the starter or inside the engine?

[Jeff K]

Part #31

is that part of the starter or inside the engine?

It's part of the intermediate gears in the engine. I've never seen one go bad. Not that you couldn't be the first...

[timk519]

It's part of the intermediate gears in the engine. I've never seen one go bad. Not that you couldn't be the first...

Oh joy.... 

[timk519]

I took a vid of starting the valk - hopefully this'll help diagnose the problem. This time it caught pretty quick, but I've had it take 3 or more tries before the engine would get turned over.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYbJ5AJxYV0

(The clicking sound is from the belly tank's fuel pump.  )

[X Ring]

My my my.  The clickety click of an electric fuel pump on a belly tank.   

[Rocketman]

The bike can hydrolock even with a belly tank if it has the stock carbs.

What mechanism would cause a hydrolock on a belly-tanked Valkyrie?

[Robert]

Great video Its nice to hear another Valk go clacking away with the pump. I put a belly tank on mine and it does the same thing I was thinking it may be a bit loud but after I heard yours NO worries. Jeff K is special his goes HMMMMMMMMM. AS for the starting if you are not trying to get the bike not to start I would find out why it takes so long to actually start. That seemed a bit long to me. As for the starter once engaged it sounded fine so the next step is out with the starter and check it and the intermediate gears. Once the starter is out you should be able to do a visual on them and see if there are any teeth missing. If not and the starter checks out good then your into the motor. One outside remote possibility is the oil you are using, different oils different friction maybe a switch would help.  Not saying you are using the wrong oil but something that may work for one may not work as well for another. I do like the sound of the your bike, I am always on mine so I really never get to hear it from another position except riding it.

[timk519]

The hard starting in this case is due to the bike sitting for a while, it being cool outside, and not putting the choke on. Towards the end, once I put the choke on it started up nicely.

ICM is stock. I do have the dynajet mod put on, but that doesn't really kick in until you roll on the throttle.

Having said that, my main concern isn't the hard starting, it's the starter not engaging initially.

[timk519]

One outside remote possibility is the oil you are using, different oils different friction maybe a switch would help.  Not saying you are using the wrong oil but something that may work for one may not work as well for another.

Would synthetic oil cause a problem? I had it changed in a Honda shop in FL (I'm on Ontario) because I was told synthetic would get me more time between changes. Changing the oil every 8K instead of 3K miles while on a 15K trip was rather appealing at the time.

What oils are other people using? Can I go from synthetic to something not synthetic?

The bike's due for a change anyway, so now's the time to do the deed.

[RP#62]

The recommended oil change interval in the Honda manual is 8K and that is with non-synthetic.  With synthetic you could go beyond 8K. 
-RP

[timk519]

The recommended oil change interval in the Honda manual is 8K and that is with non-synthetic.  With synthetic you could go beyond 8K. 

That's what I get for not reading the manual.

[Chrisj CMA]

I took a vid of starting the valk - hopefully this'll help diagnose the problem. This time it caught pretty quick, but I've had it take 3 or more tries before the engine would get turned over.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYbJ5AJxYV0#normal (The clicking sound is from the belly tank's fuel pump.  )

Sounds like a weak battery to me

[Chrisj CMA]

The bike can hydrolock even with a belly tank if it has the stock carbs.

What mechanism would cause a hydrolock on a belly-tanked Valkyrie?

All it takes is a bad needle valve in one carb and the opportunity (time) for the fuel already in the fuel line to trickle into the cylinder, its not a huge chance but it is possible.  Also trailering without draining the bowles...constant bouncing could allow this to happen

[Jeff K]

The bike can hydrolock even with a belly tank if it has the stock carbs.

What mechanism would cause a hydrolock on a belly-tanked Valkyrie?

All it takes is a bad needle valve in one carb and the opportunity (time) for the fuel already in the fuel line to trickle into the cylinder, its not a huge chance but it is possible.  Also trailering without draining the bowles...constant bouncing could allow this to happen

Or the vacuum line from the petcock

[Robert]

Synthetic is not bad but maybe the brand is not what agrees with your bike. Did you have the problem before you changed to synthetic? You can switch back with no problems

[timk519]

Synthetic is not bad but maybe the brand is not what agrees with your bike. Did you have the problem before you changed to synthetic? You can switch back with no problems 

This problem showed up some time (ie I'd guess 3-5K miles) after I went synthetic, but the only 'brand' I was using was a semi-syn the local shop put in during the last oil change.

[timk519]

Or the vacuum line from the petcock

except belly tank'd bikes have a fuel pump so they don't use a vacuum line to the petcock.

[Jeff K]

Or the vacuum line from the petcock

except belly tank'd bikes have a fuel pump so they don't use a vacuum line to the petcock.

Ah, yes, I forgot.
I don't have petcocks at all. Just quick disconnects.