Lighting help

[rafster]

Hello! This may be long and I apologize in advance. I've had my '97 standard since '99. Since nearly day 1 there has been an intermittent short in the right turn signal circuit.  It was present with the OEM lights and has remained ever since my LED conversion some years ago. Until a couple years ago it was not a big deal. Occassionally the right signals (with no input) would come on...then poof... gone by the next ride or during the same ride. This issue however, is now much worse and the right signals are on more than off these days.  Two years ago I attempted to sort it and thought I fixed it only to have the problem resurface 6m later. My theory is I moved the wires around enough to temporarily prevent the problem wire from grounding.   Now I'm making run at it to find the source of the problem then eliminate it once and for all.

Here is what I have installed:
Front and rear LED turn signals.
LED license plate bolts wired to the turn signal circuit
CustomLED electronic flasher relay part number ELFR-1 (this allowed me to get rid of the load balancers)
LED strip light for the tag light (no load balancer installed yet - the part is here and it's on my to do list)
Normal (1157?) Tail light bulb
Kuryakyn 4709 diode kit
Back off tail light modulator

Problem:
One of these two things will occur
1- right signals and indicator bulb light up and stay lit. They do however, turn off when activating the left turn signal, but will not flash when activating the right circuit     
2- This is new as of today. I removed the headlamp and housing to ease wire access. Problem 1 above went away even  though nothing was "fixed." In fact for the first few cycles everything worked fine  Now my new problem...after depressing the right signal button all of the right signals flash however so does my tsil light.

I'm hoping one of you big brained people can help me narrow down where to look for this short. I'm ready to pull my hair out!  Would anyone recommend just rewiring the entire right circuit?

 Photos coming...

[rafster]

Hello! This may be long and I apologize in advance. I've had my '97 standard since '99. Since nearly day 1 there has been an intermittent short in the right turn signal circuit.  It was present with the OEM lights and has remained ever since my LED conversion some years ago. Until a couple years ago it was not a big deal. Occassionally the right signals (with no input) would come on...then poof... gone by the next ride or during the same ride. This issue however, is now much worse and the right signals are on more than off these days.  Two years ago I attempted to sort it and thought I fixed it only to have the problem resurface 6m later. My theory is I moved the wires around enough to temporarily prevent the problem wire from grounding.   Now I'm making run at it to find the source of the problem then eliminate it once and for all.

Here is what I have installed:
Front and rear LED turn signals.
LED license plate bolts wired to the turn signal circuit
CustomLED electronic flasher relay part number ELFR-1 (this allowed me to get rid of the load balancers)
LED strip light for the tag light (no load balancer installed yet - the part is here and it's on my to do list)
Normal (1157?) Tail light bulb
Kuryakyn 4709 diode kit
Back off tail light modulator

Problem:
One of these two things will occur
1- right signals and indicator bulb light up and stay lit. They do however, turn off when activating the left turn signal, but will not flash when activating the right circuit     
2- This is new as of today. I removed the headlamp and housing to ease wire access. Problem 1 above went away even  though nothing was "fixed." In fact for the first few cycles of activating and deactivatingthe turn signals everything worked fine.  Now my new problem...after depressing the right signal all of the right signals flash however so does my tsil light.

I'm hoping one of you big brained people can help me narrow down where to look for this short. I'm ready to pull my hair out!  Would anyone recommend just rewiring the entire right circuit?

 Photos coming...

[rafster]

Sorry for the double post!!!

[rafster]

Since i cant delete this thread,
Mods feel free to delete this thread.    I'll be updating the other thread on this subject. 

[rafster]

Here's the kinda stuff I keep finding in the headlamp, under right cover and even up near the hand controls.

[rafster]

And this is what i see on the bike as well as what those behind me see.
 

[John Schmidt]

That looks like one of the 9-pin connectors, one for each side of the handlebar controls. Someone as messed it up big time and if they're open like shown, then you're riding with a fire hazard in my opinion. You need to first make a diagram on a piece of paper of just where each color of wire goes in that connector....or all of them if they're like that. Then, sit down and start taking the connector apart, cut the wires back and crimp new pins on them, then reinsert according to your diagram. If you would go into your personal profile and list your city/location, there might be someone nearby willing to lend a hand. If you lived near Orlando, FL, I'd love to help. I have all kinds of connectors, pins, bullet connectors, etc., and know I can fix that. Just a couple hours in the shop is all it would take. Been there, done that....numerous times. 

[rafster]

Thanks a ton for the offer! 
You are correct.  Definite fire hazard.  I'm not riding with it like that. Well not anymore at least.   Clearly I rode like that for years unbeknownst to me.  I was just showing an example of what I keep finding.  I've fixed these and at least 5 more sections under the right cover in addition to two wires by the throttle. I know some will disagree, but I spliced, soldering and shrink wrapped everything.
   

[rafster]

FWIW whomever did those splices had done the twist and then cover with tape style of splicing. They then taped the entire group of wires together  I had no idea it was there until I unravelled the electrical tape!
I'm now wary of any electrical tape i find on the bike and have been on the hunt which is how I found the poor splices in those other locations.

[Jims99]

Sounds like a bad ground somewhere. DC voltage can act weird with bad ground. It will back feed through one light, and cause lights to light in other areas.

[Gideon]

Sounds like a bad ground somewhere. DC voltage can act weird with bad ground. It will back feed through one light, and cause lights to light in other areas.

 

[rafster]

Thank you.  I’m in complete agreement. I figure it’s either a bad ground or an exposed wire which is shorting out.
So here’s what I’m asking -
I have repaired (solder/heat shrink) around 10 exposed wires in various locations on the bike and clearly I’ve missed one or more.
Does anyone have any suggestions on how/where to narrow my search? Are there  any known problem areas? Any tricks of the trade? 

I swear I will dance a jig when I finally fix this!

[rafster]

Somehow I created two posts on this subject.  I’m going to limit my posts and replies to this particular thread.

Back to the problem. I figure it’s either a bad ground or an exposed wire which is shorting out.
So here’s what I’m asking -
I have repaired (solder/heat shrink) around 10 exposed wires in various locations on the bike and clearly I’ve missed one or more.
Does anyone have any suggestions on how/where to narrow my search? Are there  any known problem areas? Any tricks of the trade? 

I swear I will dance a jig when I finally fix this!

[The emperor has no clothes]

Somehow I created two posts on this subject.  I’m going to limit my posts and replies to this particular thread.

Back to the problem. I figure it’s either a bad ground or an exposed wire which is shorting out.
So here’s what I’m asking -
I have repaired (solder/heat shrink) around 10 exposed wires in various locations on the bike and clearly I’ve missed one or more.
Does anyone have any suggestions on how/where to narrow my search? Are there  any known problem areas? Any tricks of the trade? 

I swear I will dance a jig when I finally fix this!

God knows I’m no electrical expert. But I would think it’s got to be one of 3 places. Headlight bucket, right side panel, connector under rear fender.

[rafster]

Still chasing wires. For you electrical gurus, Take a look at this image from Rattlebars.
Is this the block under the rear fender?
Does this say Ground where I have it circled?  If so, what is the proper way/OEM for this area to be grounded.

[Hook#3287]

Still chasing wires. For you electrical gurus, Take a look at this image from Rattlebars.
Is this the block under the rear fender?
Does this say Ground where I have it circled?  If so, what is the proper way/OEM for this area to be grounded.

That is the color of the block Gr= grey, 6 pin.

Honda uses G=green for ground wires.

[rafster]

Hook - thank you. I see/saw the grey block under the fender. When I saw the diagram I hadn’t considered that the connector color would be indicated on the diagram. I had high hopes that the block was supposed to be grounded and my bike was missing it... 

Back to the drawing board.

I’m going to try bypassing the live wire from the right cover to the right rear signal light and if necessary do the same for the front. Hopefully this will at least narrow my search area. Incidentally I added a load balancer to my LED tag strip light. No improvement was noted.

More to come as my trials continue.

[mrgeoff]

I agree that a ground wire problem is one of your major problems...Hope when you write down the wire connections, that you write the original wire color that the splice is connected to...it will be helpful in the long run if you have to replace any splices...!!! Just take your time...you got this...!!!

[rafster]

Thanks for the vote of confidence. I am indeed writing down wires as well as taking photos. I feel capable, I just hate doing electrical. Rebuilding the carbs and lining the tank was much more my speed. Alas that’s a post for another thread though. Lol

[rafster]

Bypassing the rear wiring section from the right cover to the rear fender and going straight to the right signal light connector did not solve the problem. At first I thought this meant the problem was forward of the cover. But until I verify all grounds I don’t want to make that assumption. (Please correct me if my logic is flawed.)

In light of this ground discussion & given the history, where is this ACC terminal ground on the bike?

[John Schmidt]

Under the right side cover, should be sorta buried in a semi-clear plastic cover. Often stuffed up top and sometimes difficult to spot if pushed back in a ways. The two wires will be together in there.

[Jims99]

Incidentally I added a load balancer to my LED tag strip light. No improvement was noted.

More to come as my trials continue.

to my knowledge, the load equalizer is for the turn signals because they don’t draw enough power on their own to flash.

[Paladin528]

In my opinion (and just throwing it out there) you would be well off to go to Pinwallcycle.com and pick up a new wiring harness.  This will sort out all of the wiring issues.  might be a pain to get the harness installed but better in the long run.

[Hook#3287]

In my opinion (and just throwing it out there) you would be well off to go to Pinwallcycle.com and pick up a new wiring harness.  This will sort out all of the wiring issues.  might be a pain to get the harness installed but better in the long run.

[rafster]

Under the right side cover, should be sorta buried in a semi-clear plastic cover. Often stuffed up top and sometimes difficult to spot if pushed back in a ways. The two wires will be together in there.

Thank you.  I didn't get a chance to look tonight after work...And that will be the case until Friday.  This is super helpful.  I'll see what I can find.  Thank you again. 

[rafster]

Incidentally I added a load balancer to my LED tag strip light. No improvement was noted.

More to come as my trials continue.

to my knowledge, the load equalizer is for the turn signals because they don’t draw enough power on their own to flash.

Well besides the fact that I clearly suck at chasing down electrical problems which has me at my wits end, here was my thinking-
I eliminated the entire OEM rear light assembly and have an LED strip light installed as a tag light.
The tag light
1 - shares the same ground as everything else which is wired near the signal lights 
2 - is wired with the Tail  light and
3 -  my TAIL light is affected by this turn signal issue. (It's either more dim than usual or modulates with the flash rate)
I thought perhaps the lower draw of the LED strip light could be causing the problem. So I temporarily wired in a load resistor on the LED strip light.  It was more of proof of concept trial because the right turn signal circuit problem predated the light mods mentioned above. Adding the resistor didn't seem to help, but I didn't seem to hurt either.

Again this could do be flawed thinking,  but in my head it makes sense  lol

[rafster]

In my opinion (and just throwing it out there) you would be well off to go to Pinwallcycle.com and pick up a new wiring harness.  This will sort out all of the wiring issues.  might be a pain to get the harness installed but better in the long run.

Wow!  I've never seen that site before. Talking to a buddy today I actually said it might be faster to either replace the harness or rewire this one circuit rather than trying to chase it down.  Thank you for this tip. If I decide to go this route, I will of course update here...

[rafster]

Gotta love how “life happens.”  Haven’t been able to work on the ol gal until today. Was rooting around and found these two wires with nothing attached.  One is a ground (more on that in a minute) & the other is a baby blue with red stripe that I can’t seem to find on the wiring diagram. I will say jarring them made my problem go away. Interestingly, when I run this green wire to a good ground all of my lights become more bright. I am definitely going to ground it, but I’m wondering - Does anyone knows where these are supposed to go?

[rafster]

Here’s a little better view. By the way, this blue red wire is “keyed hot” and I do see a similar color and gauge wire going into the fuse box. About to lift the box to see which fuse it goes to.

[rafster]

Well, the similar color wire feeds the accessory terminal at the fuse box. Pulling the fuse pulls power to my “spare” wire so I’m thinking these two wires are meant to be for an accessory protected by a 5A circuit.

So not I’m thinking I just got lucky today. I haven’t been able to replicate my right light circuit “on” problem. It’s happenee in the past. Heck I once even went about 6m without an issue. Starting to think moving things around was he biggest help today. Oh well. I can at least pass inspection and I am not willing to replace the entire circuit at this point. 

We will see how long it lasts.

[rafster]

Well...I know how long it lasted. 30minutes to be exact. On the upside I now know exactly where the problem is located. Umm more or less. When moving around these wires I can trigger the problem and then make it go away.  Haven’t quite figured out if it’s a bad green ground wire connection or the blue wire to the turn signal circuit. On any case this is definite progress! 

 I have half the mind to just insulate them all individually with electrical tape. 

[rafster]

I kept jiggling and chasing. I was holding certain sections still while jiggling others and... EUREKA!!

I have narrowed the problem to this section! Holding between the two areas in red and moving my blue wire will “activate” and “fix” my problem. I’m stoked as I now know for certain there is a short in this section! I suspect it’s at the point where the body clip holds down the wiring. I’m just bummed that a prior commitment is making me pack it up for the night. I’ll post tomorrow once I find the culprit and make the repair. Keeping my fingers crossed!

[indybobm]

This bike was years old when you got it and in that 2 years someone did all of this?

[gordonv]

I believe that cluster of wire under the cover are the ones for your rear turn signals/running lights. Also the brake for a std/tourer. Basically that is wire harness rear sub A, connected to sub B.

Grounding the extra green wire, sounds like you are improving the ground condition. So I suspect that you have a bad ground further down the line. It might be worth cleaning/adding some ground connectors.

[rafster]

It was 3 years old when I got it in 2000.
My theory is the short was there from the factory because the section where I've narrowed the problem to lies within the factory plastic shielding. I know the short has been there as long as I've owned the bike though its always been an intermittent problem.  Plus I get the sense someone tried to track it down previously. This would at least explain all of the random splices and exposed wires I previously fixed. The locations of these all coincide with places one would look to narrow down the problem and perhaps run tests.  

I'm cautiously optimistic, but this is the first time I've been able to routinely replicate the problem. I mean its almost like flipping a switch soI know for a fact I have a problem within the section outlined above. What I don't know is whether or not it's the ONLY problem.  Hopefully tomorrow proves successful.

[rafster]

I believe that cluster of wire under the cover are the ones for your rear turn signals/running lights. Also the brake for a std/tourer. Basically that is wire harness rear sub A, connected to sub B.

Grounding the extra green wire, sounds like you are improving the ground condition. So I suspect that you have a bad ground further down the line. It might be worth cleaning/adding some ground connectors.

Great points! I will certainly double check everything in the morning. I will be a ground chasing fiend after I find and repair the short.

[1NorthRyder]

Rafster, I had a similar issue last week, actually it’s been an issue for over a year but I fixed it last week. Like you I narrowed the problem down to one area but still had trouble locatining the exact problem. In the end I discovered a bad factory connection. I disassembled the factory connector and very carefully bent all the damaged metal pieces back to what they were supposed to look like and presto now I have brake lights that work. Good luck in solving your issue. It is a great feeling when you finally solve it.

[rafster]

NorthRyder you are 100% correct. I’m glad you got your sorted. I am about to post the repair images and I am super stoked! This has been an exercise in patience. A few four letter words have been shed over the years. There may have been an item or two thrown as well (which is a bit unlike me.) Hard to believe I’ve been “sitting” on the problem all along!

[rafster]

Well fellow Valksters here it is. The problem identified and the repair. Somehow the blue (right) turn signal wire and the brown/white brake wires were pinched. Not sure how it happened, but I am sure it is fixed. I was pleased to find both wires in relatively good condition with no frays. As you can see from the images I elected to just insulate them.

[The emperor has no clothes]

  good job. I would look at your seat pan and see if there is something that is pinching them. It's probably fine, looks like it happened long ago. But you don't want to go thru it again.