Randomly Dies - Ignition?

[athomas915]

Another update:

Dug into the bike again this morning and started cleaning up loose ends, taping up wires that were spliced/rubber removed to run various tests of various systems. Cleaned the starter relay and put everything back in their respective spots.

It started up and ran without dying. I did a short test ride followed by another 10 minute test ride up at speed and there were no hiccups. As of right now, it's fixed.

What I skipped past initially was those few open wires that were jumbled up and probably touched the frame and grounded themselves off of the little vibration the engine gave off. Taped up, and no issues. Grounding issue it was. I'll give another update at 110k, about 3k to go. Hopefully no issues between now and then.

Not sure what the original issue was, but now it's not showing any issues.

Thanks again to everyone who contributed, like I said, I was cleaning up the bike to take to a shop tomorrow, so I'm glad it's working now.

[gordonv]

Thanks for the follow up. Bare wires can do this, along with a jumble of wires from POs (previous owners). At least with your bike, it was happening a lot, can't trace something that only happens once a year.

Good luck, and waiting on the 3K follow up.

[pancho]

Cleaned the starter relay and put everything back in their respective spots.

It started up and ran without dying.


Not sure what the original issue was, but now it's not showing any issues.
 

Glad your up and running athomas

If it starts happening again, you may want to think about taking the terminal with the red wire out of the plug and tightening it slightly.   You can also place a terminal in the blank spot next to it and connect it to the red wire as both lugs on the starter relay are powered and that will half the load through the lone terminal on the red wire. 

[athomas915]

Unfortunately, the 40 mile test today brought up some serious issues, similar to the ones I had in November.

I believe it has to do with when the bike really warms up/maybe overheats. The first time it had issues was at 55 mph, 30 miles into the ride. It hasn't gotten back to normal and I barely made it home. The only consistent relief for it is shutting it off for a few minutes before riding again, that buys more engine-on time for me before it dies.

It'd also regular die at 55 mph for just a couple seconds before it fired right back up, and I didn't touch anything. This is leaning towards electric issues again.

I topped off the coolant and the oil has been recently changed, and currently at a normal level. When it died the first time, I got the oil level low light and then after multiple other cutoffs I got the low oil pressure light. It'd go off with a cycle of the ignition switch.

Will a low oil pressure light trip the engine from starting, and same with an oil level light? Dipstick looked fine.

Going to look into the coolant system and oil pump when it cools down.

I'll check the starter relay again. I'm hearing a clicking noise as soon as I flip the key in the ignition.

[pancho]

If it is starter a starter relay issue, remember it is the terminal on the red wire which is the culprit, it can be pulled out of the connector by using a very slim and thin steel strip applied from the wire side to release the terminal for inspection.

[kodiakfisher]

Nobody has mentioned a possible bad clutch switch and could be loose there and also check your ground to frame.

I am wondering that as your voltage requirement increases on the coils there is not enough current to sustain it. I suppose this could be the beginning of a battery going bad possibly. I also had an odd issue with my kill switch if I press it a bit firmly to the RUN side it would momentarily shut off the bike.

My question is does this shutdown happen more at a particular speed or RPM? If speed disregard the above related to ignition voltage.

Kodiakfisher

[98valk]

Unfortunately, the 40 mile test today brought up some serious issues, similar to the ones I had in November.

I believe it has to do with when the bike really warms up/maybe overheats. The first time it had issues was at 55 mph, 30 miles into the ride. It hasn't gotten back to normal and I barely made it home. The only consistent relief for it is shutting it off for a few minutes before riding again, that buys more engine-on time for me before it dies.

It'd also regular die at 55 mph for just a couple seconds before it fired right back up, and I didn't touch anything. This is leaning towards electric issues again.

I topped off the coolant and the oil has been recently changed, and currently at a normal level. When it died the first time, I got the oil level low light and then after multiple other cutoffs I got the low oil pressure light. It'd go off with a cycle of the ignition switch.

Will a low oil pressure light trip the engine from starting, and same with an oil level light? Dipstick looked fine.

Going to look into the coolant system and oil pump when it cools down.

I'll check the starter relay again. I'm hearing a clicking noise as soon as I flip the key in the ignition.

no oil pressure interlock with ICM.
check the harness plug and wires to the ICM. On mine, a few of the wires of the harness to plug were bent on such a tight radius that one broke.

[Moonshot_1]

Well, just re-read the thread here and had some thoughts.

Everyone, including me, got on the electrical problem bandwagon from the start. Except you. You had some thoughts early on about checking the petcock and running down fuel related issues. So clearly you had initially suspected that as a possibility.

And maybe that's it. Have you tried running with the gas cap open? Is there a kinked vent? I know the bike wouldn't shut down like you are describing if that were the case, but maybe you are describing it as you see it and not so much as it is really happening. Don't take that the wrong way. Just saying that maybe there's more to it and no one is seeing it yet as we all are going down the electrical path.

So far the electrical path hasn't seemed to work.

But "randomly dying" would fit a venting problem too. Maybe the jostling of the wires you were taping up briefly alleviated the kink and now it's back.

Again, I have got no clue to any of this. Just throwing out some possibilities.

[gordonv]

I would also agree with no fuel, but an engine sputtering to a stop, and the engine cutting out, should be 2 totally different symptoms. I used to experience the sudden dying, happened about 3 times in a year, about 1 sec die, and a rolling start and driving continued.

I was thinking also along the lines of the alternator/battery. Have you put a volt meter on the bike to test the charging system? I'm wondering if there is not enough power from the alt, and when the battery gets too low to fire the coils, it dies.

Resting allows the battery charge to come back, and the slower rpm gives enough power from the alt for the speed your driving at.

Just some thought.

[athomas915]

Hey everyone, thanks for the ideas.

Moonshot, you'll have to try harder if you want to offend me/take it the wrong way. I know you guys can't see the bike, but I need all the advice and perspective I can get because I'm missing some piece of the puzzle and I need my work checked.

I'm back on another trip but I'll check everything when I get back on Saturday night. 17 days off this month means I'll really get to dig into it later this month.

Another important detail - when it died, sometimes I'd have to recycle the ignition before the starter would engage again, sometimes it would fire right back up. Again pointing towards electrical issues, but anything goes at this point.

[The emperor has no clothes]

Hey everyone, thanks for the ideas.

Moonshot, you'll have to try harder if you want to offend me/take it the wrong way. I know you guys can't see the bike, but I need all the advice and perspective I can get because I'm missing some piece of the puzzle and I need my work checked.

I'm back on another trip but I'll check everything when I get back on Saturday night. 17 days off this month means I'll really get to dig into it later this month.

Another important detail - when it died, sometimes I'd have to recycle the ignition before the starter would engage again, sometimes it would fire right back up. Again pointing towards electrical issues, but anything goes at this point.

With this latest clue, it makes me wonder about the “tipover” switch. Some have had it not tightened up correctly and had problems.

[Avanti]

Losing ignition normally shuts down power immediately, whereas losing fuel will cause power to fade. 

Could this be a corrosion problem with the contact points inside the ignition switch.

http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,98572.0.html

[Moonshot_1]

Hey everyone, thanks for the ideas.

Moonshot, you'll have to try harder if you want to offend me/take it the wrong way. I know you guys can't see the bike, but I need all the advice and perspective I can get because I'm missing some piece of the puzzle and I need my work checked.

I'm back on another trip but I'll check everything when I get back on Saturday night. 17 days off this month means I'll really get to dig into it later this month.

Another important detail - when it died, sometimes I'd have to recycle the ignition before the starter would engage again, sometimes it would fire right back up. Again pointing towards electrical issues, but anything goes at this point.

Ok. #$((@$$% !$((!(($ $!$#$%!!!!!! your mama.

Thanks for keeping us up to date.

[athomas915]

I think I'm onto something.

Finally built up the enthusiasm to dig back into the valk. It's been difficult recently with the way things have been going.

It fires right up, idles, and then dies in the driveway. That's not new, but I noticed something more significant - there's a loud, random ticking sound immediately after it dies, no rhythm to it, very sporadic. It's coming from the starter/ignition area. What in the hell could tick like this, the ignition itself? Or possibly a bad ground? I've never even heard of anything like this before so I'm unsure of where to go from here. I'll scour the Clymer manual in the meantime.

Cheers, gang.

[Jess from VA]

Might this just be the exhaust heating up?  I know they all tick from heat at shutdown.

The way you describe it, it seems like heat may be the (or an important) issue.  Starts, runs, shuts off.... heat?

[Moonshot_1]

Prior to the random dying, what was the recent history of this bike?

what maintenance was done? Anything replaced? Anything fixed?

Even things that would not seem relevant. What was done just prior?

[athomas915]

Might this just be the exhaust heating up?  I know they all tick from heat at shutdown.

The way you describe it, it seems like heat may be the (or an important) issue.  Starts, runs, shuts off.... heat?

That's what I'm thinking. This ticking has to be the important issue. It's a very localized sound near the starter or ignition, highly doubt it'd be the exhaust based on the sound.

Moonshot -
Bought the bike in late July, rode it home (3hrs). Not even a cough until I was 5 miles from home, lost the lights. Ended up being an alternator, which I replaced.
Recently, haven't done anything significant other than the suggested searches on this thread.

[Ricky-D]

You could take a length of garden hose and using it like a stethoscope try to find the origin of the ticking.

***

[Rio Wil]

Not sure if this has been mentioned before......but this smells of loose batter  terminalss or bad battery.....how old is it anyway?

[Jersey]

I think I'm onto something.

Finally built up the enthusiasm to dig back into the valk. It's been difficult recently with the way things have been going.

It fires right up, idles, and then dies in the driveway. That's not new, but I noticed something more significant - there's a loud, random ticking sound immediately after it dies, no rhythm to it, very sporadic. It's coming from the starter/ignition area. What in the hell could tick like this, the ignition itself? Or possibly a bad ground? I've never even heard of anything like this before so I'm unsure of where to go from here. I'll scour the Clymer manual in the meantime.

Cheers, gang.

Before giving too much to the 'heat' being a clue.  Do you idle it long enough for the fan to kick in?  If not, then the 'heat' thing may just be wishful thinking of a clue.

Can you describe again HOW it dies?
-Immediately - like you hit the Engine Kill switch.
-Almost Immediately - Like it's fighting to keep running, but dies
-medium - takes about 10 secs or so to die
-slow - RPMs reduce, power lost, sounds like it's starving slowly

Jersey

[gordonv]

Could the ticking be coming from the starter relay under the right hand side cover?

My first thought too was heated metal ticking.

[athomas915]

Ricky - I need to pull covers off the bike so I have a better idea where the sound is coming from.

Rio - battery was purchased this year supposedly, not confirmed. I don't lose the lights when it dies now so I doubt it's the battery terminals.

Jersey - dies immediately, just like the kill switch. That's what leads me to an electrical issue.

Honestly, fan didn't kick in. The bike had a (poorly) rigged up auxiliary switch for the fan, which I removed so the bike would automatically kick the fan on again. I really need dig into that situation, come to think about it. The bike doesn't overheat at idle either.

Gordon - I'll uncover that starter relay so I can get a better sound on it, good idea.

[Jersey]

From all that you describe it sounded like the PO did some electrical stuff... changes to the stock wiring, etc.  Not questioning the quality of their work, but this does need to be evaluated.

What I've seen in these situations is that a wire can become internally broken.  It works when in position 90% of the time, but occasionally stops touching when some weird combo of things happens.  turning, hitting a bump, etc.  IF this is the case, then it's a REAL PIA to figure out.  In essence, you have to painstaking  go through an bend/maneuver each inch of every wire than CAN affect the circuit in question.  Connect a DVM that has a buzzing continuity setting to both ends of each wire while doing this.

The same goes for the any terminal connections.  Each one has to be examined and thoroughly cleaned and re coated with dielectric grease. 

I've found a number of these on different bikes over the years and it's frustrating.  Not saying this is the case in your situation, but something to consider.

[kodiakfisher]

so one of the weirdest and strangest failures I've heard of is the ignition key switch failing.

If this key switch is starting to go especially if you had something hanging off the key this could cause the ticking with a starter solenoid and possibly random shutdowns.

The other option would be a pulse generator that fails/failing with lower voltage once warm. Heat increases current decreases voltage.

Kodiakfisher

[sdv003]

The lights staying on shouldnt make you discount battery/terminals.  Clean the terminals up and retighten them.  That would eliminate the terminals, which could definitely lead to the symptoms you describe.

[indybobm]

I would remove the red connector from the starter relay/solenoid behind the right side cover and and check for corrosion.

[SPOFF]

I would remove the red connector from the starter relay/solenoid behind the right side cover and and check for corrosion.

And while in there, replace the green fuse with a new one. My fuse was cracked. Maybe that will fix my problem but spring is still over 3 months away.   

[athomas915]

Great things to look for, when it does it again.

Day 2 of riding it around until I get tired, not even a hiccup. I'll continue the shorter road tests until I feel confident enough to go on a longer ride.

Thanks for stickin this one out, guys. We'll hope for the best.

[MarkT]

I'm gonna go with my catch-all.  Move the battery ground wire from the back of the aluminum engine block to the left footpeg bracket steel mount bolt.  Even if that's not the problem it likely will be in the future so move it anyway to eliminate / prevent it.  Aluminum oxidizes and Honda does not use star washers to dig into the metal to assure a good ground to aluminum at low voltage - like we do here ISO2000 (I think) standard.  I had this stop me on a road trip and when I found it, moved the wire in the dark.  You need to ream out the connector hole but the wire is already long enough.  I've moved this wire on all my Valks now.  FYI there are several engine mounts that assure the engine is well grounded to the frame w/o the wire going to the engine.

[athomas915]

MarkT - perfect, that's something I'd love to take care of now and not when I'm on the side of the road at night.

So I skipped over something big... When I bought the bike, the PO briefly mentioned that it would overheat at stoplights. Odd, but I didn't think much about it. Turns out there was a secondary switch he wired up and put on the radiator cover/fairing to turn on/off the fan when it needed it, at stoplights. I bypassed the switch and removed it (in hindsight, didn't wire the fan back into the circuit, at least not correctly).

I haven't checked the radiator cooling fan since the issues began.

I'm about to check the fan fuse, but until then, I'll finish my thoughts. Should the overtemp light immediately kill the bike, or is there anything else that will kill the bike in an overheat situation?

[Joevalk]

What was the verdict?
I’m having the same problem

[rug_burn]

Yeah, please keep us posted.    My bike is old enough to start having those random age related problems.

   One thing to remember is the kickstand switch, it's easy to check-  just put it in neutral, and if it then starts, that is probably your problem.     
   And then there's the  tip-over switch, probably not relevant here.   

[1NorthRyder]

I had a bike (not a Valkyrie) that would just shut off instantly all the time. I'd let it sit and then it would start, ride for a while and it would shut off. I finally traced it to the kickstand switch. a small screw had worked loose and would allow just enough movement to shut the bike off. The slightest movement would reset it again and the bike would start. Drove me crazy until I figured it out.

[Joevalk]

Well here is my verdict, I replaced the ICM and no more dying.

[athomas915]

And here was the problem and solution:

Bad kill switch. It'd short out and kill the bike. Replaced it and it runs like a hog.

Thanks, all!

[Jersey]

And here was the problem and solution:

Bad kill switch. It'd short out and kill the bike. Replaced it and it runs like a hog.

Thanks, all!

Thanks for the update!  As they say, Occam's Razor!